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[TL:DR] Game physics not realistic for space flight simulation

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Author
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#61 - 2012-09-07 12:01:43 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:

If there is no "up" in space, why do all the ships in Star Trek always approach each other the same way up?

I mean you never see an episode where the Romulan bird of prey decloaks in front of the Enterprise and it's upside down.

QED Space has "up" and "down"



The Enemy's Gate is Down.

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Skogen Gump
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2012-09-07 12:04:01 UTC
Sebastian LaFleur wrote:
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:

If there is no "up" in space, why do all the ships in Star Trek always approach each other the same way up?

I mean you never see an episode where the Romulan bird of prey decloaks in front of the Enterprise and it's upside down.

QED Space has "up" and "down"


LOL, That is so true!


What on earth, No up and down ?

Sure there is, it's the movement along the plane perpendicular to your current heading.
The only thing is, it can only be defined relatively to your position, there's no central reference is all.
Amaroq Dricaldari
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2012-09-07 12:26:39 UTC
Not sure if this has already said, but the ships slow down due to their Warp Field.

This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Singoth
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#64 - 2012-09-07 12:27:49 UTC
LOL Roleplay:
New Eden is a galaxy different than our milky way we live in. In New Eden, our known newtonian physics don't really hold much ground.
In New Eden, space is much "denser", and this caused much trouble for the first explorers already, as they were burning through all their fuel, else they would come to a halt. That's also why they never really got far away from the EVE wormhole, and instead had to build stargates to conserve fuel.

However, we, the main races of the universe, learned to live with it, and adapted our ship's engines to work against the apparent "liquid" of space. This same liquid also provides a maximum speed in m/s which can simply not be broken unless you go into a state of Warp, which deforms the dense space/time continuum by creating a zero-point vacuum (a true vacuum without any particles in it.)
and just as with air bubbles in water, air bubbles deform the water around them when they accellerate upwards. However, as there is no up or down in space, the vacuum can practically stay still in space... it's only thanks to the drives that we can accellerate that vacuum and travel with it through the "liquid" of space.

While space battles in the milkyway might be fought over millions of miles... combat in EVE is only a couple hundred km at most, thanks to the reduced speeds.

This same liquid also made sure there is a lot of invisible mass (called Dark Matter) which prevents the creation of stars, and as such, New Eden has only around 5000 systems with stars, while normal galaxies like the milky way have billions of stars. This creates a dim galaxy that our ancestors from the milkyway, probably can not even see.


There, is your OCD happy now? xD

Less yappin', more zappin'!

Anunzi
Solace Corp
#65 - 2012-09-07 12:45:12 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:



OMG! Waaaaay better than OPs sperge.


+1 for the nostalgia.

"It was the way she said it, Rimmer, to rhyme with scum"

Mirajane Cromwell
#66 - 2012-09-07 13:00:11 UTC
Skogen Gump wrote:
Nonnosa wrote:
I agree with OP Eve is not "realistic' but you dont want it to be.

The old PC game Frontier: Elite 2 had newtonian physics for flight which made control of your ship any where from difficult to impossible. The auto pilot module was the first and most essential piece of equipment you had to equip.

If you want to try realistic space flight I suggest Orbiter: http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/

Remember it is a simulator, not a game. You'll never complain about Eve being hard ever again. Blink


You could also check out I-War and I-War 2; they had amazing flight simulation mechanics.

It did give me a proper nerdasm to get to jump through a lagrange point :)

I also think that I-War and I-War have so far had the best implementation of newtonian physics + space combat. The warp drive there was pretty cool too.. you could cruise at warp speed to any direction.

In Frontier: Elite 2 and Frontier: First Encounters the newtonian physics were really cool but the space combat was hilariously difficult - it was like 2 ships connected to each other with rubber band and you tried to hit the enemy in a fraction of second when you passed over the other ship, then turn around and start accelarating the opposite direction (while still flying near light speed towards some station/planet) and on each pass the distance between ships got shorter and once the speed of the ships was matched then the combat was somewhat doable. Took months to reach the Elite rank. Such PvP environment wouldn't work at all in Eve.
Tobias Zacharian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-09-07 13:11:16 UTC
As I recalled, correct me if I'm wrong, I read somewhere that the warp drives on our ships cause friction in subspace, which makes it seem like we're flying underwater.
Kult Altol
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#68 - 2012-09-07 13:32:24 UTC
Singoth wrote:
LOL Roleplay:
New Eden is a galaxy different than our milky way we live in. In New Eden, our known newtonian physics don't really hold much ground.
In New Eden, space is much "denser", and this caused much trouble for the first explorers already, as they were burning through all their fuel, else they would come to a halt. That's also why they never really got far away from the EVE wormhole, and instead had to build stargates to conserve fuel.

However, we, the main races of the universe, learned to live with it, and adapted our ship's engines to work against the apparent "liquid" of space. This same liquid also provides a maximum speed in m/s which can simply not be broken unless you go into a state of Warp, which deforms the dense space/time continuum by creating a zero-point vacuum (a true vacuum without any particles in it.)
and just as with air bubbles in water, air bubbles deform the water around them when they accellerate upwards. However, as there is no up or down in space, the vacuum can practically stay still in space... it's only thanks to the drives that we can accellerate that vacuum and travel with it through the "liquid" of space.

While space battles in the milkyway might be fought over millions of miles... combat in EVE is only a couple hundred km at most, thanks to the reduced speeds.

This same liquid also made sure there is a lot of invisible mass (called Dark Matter) which prevents the creation of stars, and as such, New Eden has only around 5000 systems with stars, while normal galaxies like the milky way have billions of stars. This creates a dim galaxy that our ancestors from the milkyway, probably can not even see.


There, is your OCD happy now? xD



Hey that was awesome. Thanks.

[u]Can't wait untill when Eve online is Freemium.[/u] WiS only 10$, SP booster for one month 15$, DPS Boost 2$, EHP Boost 2$ Real money trading hub! Cosmeitic ship skins 15$ --> If you don't [u]pay **[/u]for a product, you ARE the [u]**product[/u].

Uris Vitgar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-09-07 13:39:49 UTC
Okay, how about this. Warp drives and gravity are both related to manipulation of space, so the warp drive can be used to explain the abscence of gravity. Then the hydrogen scoop can explain space friction, and maybe even vaildate some of the more funky ship designs- for example if your ship would spin to port because of unbalanced thrusters you can simply extend the starboard hydrogen scoop to balance it out.
Smapty
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-09-07 15:24:48 UTC
I guess we'll need to get rid of the fiery explosions in space, too, since that's fairly impossible in a vacuum.

Oh, and aren't lasers invisible without an atmosphere full of crap to pass through? No more seeing yourself shoot, sorry Amarr.

Oh, and since faster than light travel actually warps time, we'll need to adjust everyone else's game clock up a year or two whenever you use a gate.
Kyle Yanowski
Quality Assurance
#71 - 2012-09-07 16:34:55 UTC
Medarr wrote:
Your wrong on 3 accounts.

Friction, top speed, and slowing down when not under thrust.

Off to school you go again.



You're, a contraction of you and are. =)

Host of the High Drag Eve Online Podcast ( http://highdrag.wordpress.com). Director of Aideron Robotics.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#72 - 2012-09-07 16:44:19 UTC
Applying real world physics to a game, or the SciFi genre in general, where the physics and the inherent properties of how their alien advanced tech works is blatantly at the the whim of the content creators is simply mental masturbati0n.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#73 - 2012-09-07 16:46:33 UTC
Skippermonkey wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
For **** sake. Why are you so ignorant?
THE OBVIOUS REASON FOR SPACESHIPS HAVING MAX VELOCITY IS DUE TO THE WARP CORE THAT ANCHORS ONES SHIP RELATIVE TO THE UNIVERSAL FABRIC..
What pattern is this fabric?

I think this is an important question

its plaid rite?

rite?
It's corduroy. That's why ships come to a halt so quickly.
MinefieldS
1 Sick Duck Standss on something
#74 - 2012-09-07 20:26:11 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:

If there is no "up" in space, why do all the ships in Star Trek always approach each other the same way up?

I mean you never see an episode where the Romulan bird of prey decloaks in front of the Enterprise and it's upside down.

QED Space has "up" and "down"

Watch Star Wars; when a ship is severely damaged it starts to sink lol.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#75 - 2012-09-07 20:33:49 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
…and I have to dust this one off in response.
Boston Grambo
Perkone
Caldari State
#76 - 2012-09-07 21:22:50 UTC
The OP is none of the following:

- An Astronaut
- An Astro-Physicist.
- Rocket Scientist

So what right does the OP have in posting such a whiny thread?
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#77 - 2012-09-07 21:25:28 UTC
Boston Grambo wrote:
The OP is none of the following:

- An Astronaut
- An Astro-Physicist.
- Rocket Scientist

So what right does the OP have in posting such a whiny thread?


How do you know ? Pirate

Just kidding!

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-09-07 23:28:37 UTC
Ogedei Khaghan wrote:
I am sure this has been bandied about before, but I want to get in my 2 cents.

I am rather OCD when it comes to game play physics; especially when it applies to a game that is based on real world physics. I have noticed the following inconsitancies in the physics of EVE online.

Tranquility - EVE-EVE-TRANQUILITY - 7.43.412710


  1. Space does not have a maximum speed. You CAN have a maximum rate of acceleration due to mass to thrust ratios. The only limiting facter on speed in space is the ability to avoid running into space dust which would destoy a ship if the collision velocity is too high. Currently MicroWarp and afterburners are able to increase the maximum velocity and acceleration of a star ship which shows that any shielding that would be used to protect the vessel from collisions is better than these maximum speeds. In a real world setting the plow shielding would need to be upgraded to withstand micro collisions before increasing the maximum speed. Reference this.

  2. There is no UP or Down in space. There is a galactic or solar north that could be considered UP/DOWN from a graphics stand point, but this has no bearing on space flight except in the sense of magnetic fields. See this. The physics of aeronautical flight do not apply in a vacuum.

    • Thus there is no need for a ship to roll in order to change direction. That being said - assuming these ships have gravity plating only on the decks and not on the wall, it may be necessary to roll in order to redirect the Gs of the centripetal force downward. However, this is very poorly implemented; i.e. the center of mass point for the Myrmidon - a very tall ship comparatively; is somewhere in the middle of the ship. Using the theory above - this would throw all the crewmen in the upper levels into the ceiling.
    • There is no need for a spacefaring vessel to "right" itself in relation to the galactic/solar north. While this does make for some easier comprehension of game play it shows a poor comprehension of 3 dimensional movement.

  3. There is no (relative term) friction in space - see this. Case in point the density of matter is next to nothing due to it being a vacuum. Thus the only environmental force that would interact on the ship's velocity would be micro gravity from larger bodies.

    • A space ship would not stop by ceasing forward acceleration (read: Turning off its engines). It would continue on its current vector until it reversed the direction of its engines and accelerated on a reciprocal vector. Read this.
    • A space ship would not change directions and then change orientation as is the current case. If anyone has ever piloted a very heavy ship, like a freighter, you may have noticed that the ship points in the direction you want to warp in and then matches the vector after a period of time. While this is a lot closer to true physics it is not realistic. This goes back to the point above as to the reduction of velocity on one vector must be reduced while acceleration is applied to the new vector. For example: in order to make a 90 degree turn on the same plain the ship must yaw (90+45=) 135 degrees in the direction of intended travel before applying acceleration in order to scrub off the velocity on the previous vector. Doing this describes an arc connecting the previous vector with the new one.

    This could be coded by placing a fulcrum point ahead of the ship and having the back "fish-tail" or lag directionally when following this point.


As I said, this is just my 2 cents to CCP on how to make their game more realistic. I am well aware this is a game and that any or all of this post may be discarded as beyond the ability to be coded or not feasible for game play in the current environment.


i got some lines for you the short answer of this wall of text is "ITS A GAME YOU KNOW GAME" not reality .If people get to serieuse the need to stop playing games.
Lysanne Reqetta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2012-09-08 11:16:35 UTC
Quote:
Game physics not realistic for space flight simulation

No ****, Sherlock

Blatant alt posting? In my EVE? It's more likely than you think.

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Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2012-09-08 11:29:00 UTC
If OP is a troll he definitely got you all really good.