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Large Projectile Ammo question

Author
Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-09-05 04:57:54 UTC
[Vargur, La-Zawal Khof]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
X-Large Shield Booster II

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager I

Large Projectile Burst Aerator I
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I


Hobgoblin II x5


I'm adding the t2 aerator rig in a few days btw.
My real question is that for L4s, if I were to switch to t1 ammo to save money and add dps, would I sacrifice too much falloff?


Idicious Lightbane
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-09-05 06:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Idicious Lightbane
Switch ammo depending on range of rats, carry both with you. Keep in mind Barrage does mostly explosive damage so is fairly bad against certain rats and you'd want a t1 ammo anyways. Switch the ammo type depending on rat resists and range (like phased plasma vs serpentis, emp vs blood raiders, fusion/barrage vs angel cartel etc.

With the falloff the Vargur has you will still be doing massive damage with short range ammo at conciderable distance. I don't remember how it compares to the Mach falloff wise but you can use T1 short range ammo effectively out to some 70km on it.

I'm also wondering how you're going to keep from capping out in certain situations, with the dps it has you won't have to run your tank for long periods most of the time, but if you warp right into 10 BS like in say worlds collide you will have to run it for a decent period flat out in which case without a cap booster as you have now you will most likely cap out.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-09-05 09:02:25 UTC
Only counting range T1 ammo would be better out to about 30km then barrage wins.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#4 - 2012-09-05 09:47:56 UTC
EFT gives you the answers you're looking for.

Up to 30km T1 (non-faction) ammo wins and after that Barrage takes the lead but up to about 50km the dps difference isn't big enough to warrant the extra ammo cost. Also note that Barrage is Expl/Kin so would you fight non-minnie based NPCs then barrage becomes less logical to use, even at greater ranges.
Bolsak
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-09-05 13:59:37 UTC
The falloff for my Vargur using standard T1 ammo is 46 and 49kms. 46 for -50% and 49 for 0% penalty. I’m not sure how EVE figures their math…
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#6 - 2012-09-05 14:06:52 UTC
Bolsak wrote:
The falloff for my Vargur using standard T1 ammo is 46 and 49kms. 46 for -50% and 49 for 0% penalty. I’m not sure how EVE figures their math…


based on math. i assume you have different fit
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#7 - 2012-09-05 14:11:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Zor'katar
I've flown a 2TE+TC+Ambit Vargur like that, and with short-range ammo it has something like 70k falloff. Range won't be a problem, and with the better tracking you'll have a little more time to pop the smaller ships before they get under your guns. Plus the previously-mentioned bonus of selectable damage. Consider using RF ammo... the 15% damage bonus is not to be underestimated. Despite the higher cost, it can increase your ISK/hr (if you're into such statistics).
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-09-05 15:00:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Marc Callan
Bolsak wrote:
The falloff for my Vargur using standard T1 ammo is 46 and 49kms. 46 for -50% and 49 for 0% penalty. I’m not sure how EVE figures their math…


Projectile ammunition range bonuses and penalties are only applied to the optimal ranges. With autocannons, optimals are vanishingly low (3km difference between short-range and mid-range, as you've stated), so you only start to see major range differences when you deal with T2 ammunition, which has bonuses (for Barrage) and penalties (for Hail) to the falloff.

Incidentally, that's probably why you often see autocannon ships using Tracking Enhancers; the 30% falloff bonus dwarfs what any other module or rig will give (aside from a Tracking Computer with an Optimal Range script).

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt

Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-09-06 03:07:16 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
I've flown a 2TE+TC+Ambit Vargur like that, and with short-range ammo it has something like 70k falloff. Range won't be a problem, and with the better tracking you'll have a little more time to pop the smaller ships before they get under your guns. Plus the previously-mentioned bonus of selectable damage. Consider using RF ammo... the 15% damage bonus is not to be underestimated. Despite the higher cost, it can increase your ISK/hr (if you're into such statistics).


Yeah, my falloff with short-range T1 ammo is over 70km according to EFT.
I've used RF ammo for artys with the Maelstrom, but never with ACs. It would cost a lot more, but on the other hand I wouldn't consume as much ammo. Especially with DPS going over 1000 minus drones.
Veryez
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#10 - 2012-09-06 11:31:11 UTC
I hate using any mission ship w/o a propulsion mod (an AB fits with a pg implant, or a small bit of faction - RF XL Booster instead of t2). I have long used the thumbrule: effective projectile range = optimal + 1/2 falloff.

Thus you'll be doing most of your DPS up to about 40k range (I get 72 falloff so 4.2 + 36 = 40k), however for frigate targets, feel free to engage @ optimal + falloff. So, t1 ammo is fine for missions if you can keep NPC's within 40k.
Bolsak
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-09-06 12:48:20 UTC
Hakaimono wrote:
[Vargur, La-Zawal Khof]
...


How long does your cap last?
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#12 - 2012-09-06 13:23:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Zor'katar
Hakaimono wrote:
Yeah, my falloff with short-range T1 ammo is over 70km according to EFT.
I've used RF ammo for artys with the Maelstrom, but never with ACs. It would cost a lot more, but on the other hand I wouldn't consume as much ammo. Especially with DPS going over 1000 minus drones.

With the marauder role bonus, you're only using half as much ammo as you otherwise would. Still more than an arty Mael, but not obscenely so. Personal preference though, I guess.

(Edit: It also pushes the point at which Barrage takes over as the best damage from around 30k to out past 40k)
Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-09-07 03:25:27 UTC
Bolsak wrote:
Hakaimono wrote:
[Vargur, La-Zawal Khof]
...


How long does your cap last?


Two minutes. I still pulse tank effectively.
Capri Sern
The Stand Alone Complex
#14 - 2012-09-07 10:47:06 UTC
I've run L4's in both a Mach and a Varg and never bothered once with barrage. Being an EXP ammo the only time to use it would be against Angels who will burn in to close range making the falloff bonus to the ammo redundant.