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ASB is BULL.

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Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#481 - 2012-08-26 16:51:47 UTC
Check the battle report. Him and 20ish of us would be more accurate. ;)

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#482 - 2012-08-26 18:15:30 UTC
This thread:

Pages 1-3: Arguing about Lasers

Pages 4 on: everyone gave up by that point.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#483 - 2012-08-26 21:31:32 UTC
Hrett wrote:
ASBs are fine.

Ill use the Cyclone because it has these obscene theoretical numbers being thrown around.

They can be soloed, despite claims to the contrary.

http://pinkiepie.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14290526


I'm not going to take the approach that the pro-ASB side has done and claim that any killmail without absolutely perfect fittings or not going the exact way that I would predict is not admissible evidence. Instead, I'm going to say that this is a fantastic killmail for proving my point. We know these things from the killmail:
- He did not have implants
- He did not have links
- He tanked 39k raw damage
- He tanked 76k EHP (10k hull, 8.5k armor, 56.5k shields)
- He tanked 29.8k shield HP which means he almost certainly had 15-16 boosts from the ASB
- He made it through the first reload
- He had no cap boosters in his ASB at the end of the fight
- He had no cap boosters in his cargohold at the end of the fight

The take home lesson here is that your 54 second claim is false (108 seconds if he'd bothered to bring some cap boosters along). A bit more research shows us that the Talos in that kill was also almost certainly ASB fit. Lol

Quote:

Even dual XLASB are not invincible because of alpha.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14444795


So you got 15 people to blob a Cyclone. Yes, I would expect it to go down rather quickly. That rather dramatically exceeds the maximum DPS tanked even with implants, links, and pills.

Quote:
Say it out loud: "54 seconds."

That is how long they are awesome for. 54 Seconds. They might need a fitting increase to discourage dual oversized fits, but otherwise:

54 seconds.


I've already thoroughly debunked that 54 seconds claim.

Repeatedly.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#484 - 2012-08-26 23:53:33 UTC
Kalterox wrote:
Gro'Mit wrote:
Y U HEF 2 B MED, ITZ ONLEE EH GAYM.

Here's an idea, start using ASB's.

Problem solved.

Move on.


I use ASB's. It isn't a solution. When they become widespread it will wreck solo pvp and small gang. They're a huge lopsided buff to tanking, which will affect all non-fleet pvp.

In fact let's just cut to the chase: they're hilarious badly balanced and will be nerfed.

PS. the "u mad" thing hasn't been funny since about 2008 you atrocious pubby.


It's quite difficult to think those are not OP when you see what an already ubber cloacky LSB loki can do, throw in an XL-ASB and pick 2 or 3 of them, you can't imagine what you can do with this kind of gang nor on how many targets you can take, it's simply ridiculously fun (and OP).

Double med ASB Tengu, another monster that didn't really needed that. Pick a couple of those and see how OP it is.

Thing that really bothers me is if we, players, not caring about the single soul but the whole game can see this why can't CCP?
For the meanwhile I'll do exactly what I'm expected to do with this, use and abuse it to death till there is enough rage and someone wakes up.

brb
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#485 - 2012-08-27 02:35:59 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


I've already thoroughly debunked that 54 seconds claim.

Repeatedly.

-Liang


Pardon me, but I must have missed it. I have yet to see a single kill board link or pvp video that shows a single ASB setup is op. They are vulnerable every 54 seconds (or whenever your DPS forces them to reload). If the attackers survive (~500ish dps in your example) past 54 seconds (or whatever the reload time becomes) and have enough dps, the ASB ship dies. If you don't have enough dps (800 in your example) the ASB ship will live. Sounds ok to me.

Post examples. CCP still appears to have an open mind. (at least about the multi setups). I have an open mind. Our theory crafting and EFT warrioring is fun, but evidence rules. Post kill mails or pvp videos that prove single setups are op (and don't look like other pvp mails/videos where normal armor/shield boosting ships eat entire gangs - Nerf Kessah Domis and Kil2 Megas and Geddons and Triple rep Myrms and pwnage Maelstroms and Hypes!). I'd love to see them. If they show what you guys are claiming, Ill post it in Test server feedback myself.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#486 - 2012-08-27 02:40:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Hrett wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


I've already thoroughly debunked that 54 seconds claim.

Repeatedly.

-Liang


Pardon me, but I must have missed it. I have yet to see a single kill board link or pvp video that shows a single ASB setup is op. They are vulnerable every 54 seconds (or whenever your DPS forces them to reload). If the attackers survive (~500ish dps in your example) past 54 seconds (or whatever the reload time becomes) and have enough dps, the ASB ship dies. If you don't have enough dps (800 in your example) the ASB ship will live. Sounds ok to me.

Post examples. CCP still appears to have an open mind. (at least about the multi setups). I have an open mind. Our theory crafting and EFT warrioring is fun, but evidence rules. Post kill mails or pvp videos that prove single setups are op (and don't look like other pvp mails/videos where normal armor/shield boosting ships eat entire gangs - Nerf Kessah Domis and Kil2 Megas and Geddons and Triple rep Myrms and pwnage Maelstroms and Hypes!). I'd love to see them. If they show what you guys are claiming, Ill post it in Test server feedback myself.


I love how you totally ignored the meat of that post which illustrated it... yet again. The funny thing is that this thread is littered with me posting killmails that simply should not have ever happened.

-Liang

Ed: Removed well deserved snark.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#487 - 2012-08-27 06:30:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
Liang Nuren wrote:
Hrett wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


I've already thoroughly debunked that 54 seconds claim.

Repeatedly.

-Liang


Pardon me, but I must have missed it. I have yet to see a single kill board link or pvp video that shows a single ASB setup is op. They are vulnerable every 54 seconds (or whenever your DPS forces them to reload). If the attackers survive (~500ish dps in your example) past 54 seconds (or whatever the reload time becomes) and have enough dps, the ASB ship dies. If you don't have enough dps (800 in your example) the ASB ship will live. Sounds ok to me.

Post examples. CCP still appears to have an open mind. (at least about the multi setups). I have an open mind. Our theory crafting and EFT warrioring is fun, but evidence rules. Post kill mails or pvp videos that prove single setups are op (and don't look like other pvp mails/videos where normal armor/shield boosting ships eat entire gangs - Nerf Kessah Domis and Kil2 Megas and Geddons and Triple rep Myrms and pwnage Maelstroms and Hypes!). I'd love to see them. If they show what you guys are claiming, Ill post it in Test server feedback myself.


I love how you totally ignored the meat of that post which illustrated it... yet again. The funny thing is that this thread is littered with me posting killmails that simply should not have ever happened.

-Liang

Ed: Removed well deserved snark.


I read that part and I did ignore it. "It shouldda had links and implants and god knows whatelse" didnt seem to be something I needed to respond to (because we arent talking about the need to nerf boosts right now). Anyway - I guess you are taking me hyper-literally and I am being a bit hyperbolic. I think you understand my point though, as I detailed in the above post and others before it, that I am saying they are weak whenever they have to reload. That is a balancing factor. Admittedly, that reload may not take place at exactly 54 seconds. It might be longer depending on the incoming dps. It might be shorter depending on if you have to overheat it. It might be exactly 54 seconds. Regardless, when it reloads, it is vulnerable. It can be alphaed too. It has weaknesses. That is the point. My point still stands, I havent seen any linked evidence that shows that single ASB setups are OP. (And no, the honor tanked Typhoon kill doesnt convince me. P)

So, to address your point:

Liang Nuren wrote:

I'm not going to take the approach that the pro-ASB side has done and claim that any killmail without absolutely perfect fittings or not going the exact way that I would predict is not admissible evidence. Instead, I'm going to say that this is a fantastic killmail for proving my point. We know these things from the killmail:
- He did not have implants
- He did not have links
- He tanked 39k raw damage
- He tanked 76k EHP (10k hull, 8.5k armor, 56.5k shields)
- He tanked 29.8k shield HP which means he almost certainly had 15-16 boosts from the ASB
- He made it through the first reload
- He had no cap boosters in his ASB at the end of the fight
- He had no cap boosters in his cargohold at the end of the fight

The take home lesson here is that your 54 second claim is false (108 seconds if he'd bothered to bring some cap boosters along). A bit more research shows us that the Talos in that kill was also almost certainly ASB fit.



First, I know for a fact that the Talos was also XL ASB fit. So take from that what you will. But damage is the ultimate issue here, because we are talking about tank, right? So, regardless if it was eleventy-billion seconds, or 5 seconds, the ultimate point is that it took 39k raw damage. Then it died. Even if it had not run out of boosters, that Ion Talos would have finished eroding its buffer during the second reload, and the Cyclone would have died then (or the Cyclone would have eroded the Talos' buffer and killed it during its reload - which is the same point). If there were any second ship with the Talos of cruiser size or above, the Cyclone would have died during its first reload. If it was linked and boosted up the wazoo, and took multiples of 39k damage, if that was compared to a similarly boosted armor or shield fit, I suspect those numbers wouldnt be OP either, relative to the others.

Regardless, Im not going to argue any more, though I might come back to post some kill mails that may support either position. We have shouted the theory craft. We have beat the horse. Lets look for evidence (either way).

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#488 - 2012-08-27 07:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Hrett wrote:

I read that part and I did ignore it. "It shouldda had links and implants and god knows whatelse" didnt seem to be something I needed to respond to (because we arent talking about the need to nerf boosts right now). Anyway - I guess you are taking me hyper-literally and I am being a bit hyperbolic. I think you understand my point though, as I detailed in the above post and others before it, that I am saying they are weak whenever they have to reload. That is a balancing factor. Admittedly, that reload may not take place at exactly 54 seconds. It might be longer depending on the incoming dps. It might be shorter depending on if you have to overheat it. It might be exactly 54 seconds. Regardless, when it reloads, it is vulnerable. It can be alphaed too. It has weaknesses. That is the point. My point still stands, I havent seen any linked evidence that shows that single ASB setups are OP. (And no, the honor tanked Typhoon kill doesnt convince me. P)


ASB Tanked Talos was their primary while I wrecked them in the Oracle from range
http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=28971
http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=28972
http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=28974
http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=28973

ASB tanks
http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29491
http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29858
http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29859

ASB Solo (Face tanked all of these):
http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29487
http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29493
http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29496

But yeah, at least one mod on all of those ships is wrong therefore they obviously don't matter. It's not 100% perfectly in your favor, therefore it doesn't matter. Roll I'm sure I could go through the rest of the KB and check for outrageous **** that my corpies have done purely because of ASBs.

Quote:

First, I know for a fact that the Talos was also XL ASB fit. So take from that what you will. But damage is the ultimate issue here, because we are talking about tank, right? So, regardless if it was eleventy-billion seconds, or 5 seconds, the ultimate point is that it took 39k raw damage. Then it died. Even if it had not run out of boosters, that Ion Talos would have finished eroding its buffer during the second reload, and the Cyclone would have died then (or the Cyclone would have eroded the Talos' buffer and killed it during its reload - which is the same point). If there were any second ship with the Talos of cruiser size or above, the Cyclone would have died during its first reload. If it was linked and boosted up the wazoo, and took multiples of 39k damage, if that was compared to a similarly boosted armor or shield fit, I suspect those numbers wouldnt be OP either, relative to the others.

Regardless, Im not going to argue any more, though I might come back to post some kill mails that may support either position. We have shouted the theory craft. We have beat the horse. Lets look for evidence (either way).


So the only thing that can take out an ASB fit is range tanking and waiting eternity for it to die or ASB fitting yourself. On a side note, I had a corp mate that tanked 2 close range gank canes and an Ishtar through 2 full reloads without taking any armor damage. And yes, I have it on fraps.

-Liang

Ed: We calculated it at ~2600 DPS for 04:18, and he could have kept going. Another cycle finished loading right as he was dipping into armor

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Crove
Spreadsheet Aces
#489 - 2012-08-29 06:12:24 UTC
Remember when nanos were nerfed because the only counter to nano fleets was...nano fleets?

Hey look, it's 2009 calling...

(or was it 2010? I dunno, I miss my nano crow and its 27 km/s)

The only good counter to ASB is fitting one. While it is /possible/ to outlast them for a long, long time, it shouldn't be necessary to manage an extraordinary feat simply because your opponent was skilled enough to drag one item into a fitting slot and then drag its ammo into his cargohold.
Hi Lighter
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#490 - 2012-08-29 17:09:06 UTC
Dont need to nerf asb I mean my double xlarge asb mael with hg crystals and blue pill still tanks a little less than and
Dread in seige so it's fine
SealteamXI
Z-Co.
#491 - 2012-09-04 04:56:47 UTC
Nerf the **** out of this. Subcaps should not be able to tank 5 figure amounts with T2 fittings and total neut immunity.
Maverick Cigarettes
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#492 - 2012-09-04 21:05:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Maverick Cigarettes
One aspect of the discussion re: ASB that I feel is not receiving much attention is that most fights don't occur in a void of options other than kill everything or die.

Frequently fights occur on a gate or station, where cap immune burst tanking is a bit of a game-changer. How long does the XL ASB ship have to buffer tank after aggroing on some easy target (perhaps the interceptor or interdictor that was the only real issue with a re-approach), de-aggroing immediately, and running out of loaded charges? I'm not going to belabor the math, I think we can agree it's not very long.

Let's say he doesn't want to fight at all -- how large of a gang or flawless of a smaller composition do you need to burn him down or force the engagement?

A particularly poignant comparison is that between the reload time and aggression timer -- How long does it take him to reload on the other side? 60 seconds. How long does it take your gang to de-aggro to assist tackle on the lower DPS side of a split? 60 seconds. Really?

Even a small gang that is relatively focused on gate camping is suddenly looking at having to change composition or bulk up to meet the need of 10+ dudes to split tackle and DPS to box a fotm Rokh or Maelstrom in, or 6+ including overwhelming e-war (everyone loves Falcon-centric PVP, right?) and 1-2 90% web hulls to manage him on one side.

Even when something is solidly tackled, there are a large number of situations where the proposed "Just hold him for 5 minutes and he'll run out of cap boosters or something lol" response doesn't really make sense. Does the guy not have a single friend in the world? Is he just going to sit there and eat **** for 5 minutes? No, he's going to hop on an intel channel and scream like a ***** that he's gotten himself tackled in the belt and the station is going to belch out chucklefucks in Drakes that will have plenty of time to figure out which belt and ruin your gank.

In a lot of contexts ASBs effect a significant shift in the balance away from smaller (2-6 dudes) gangs to a dichotomy of 6+ gangs or ASB fotm. I'm not aware of any recent module or change that has such widespread and significant effects on the dynamics of small gang PVP. ASB is becoming a very monotonous theme of solo/small gang PVP -- it seriously needs a revisit.
Terminator56
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#493 - 2012-09-04 21:23:19 UTC
First off , this was on SISI, he most likely was officer fit with HG implants and other completely impractical items that would not be uesd on TQ. ASBs make shield tanking viable again, and if he was such "crap fit" why did you loose to him? I would consider him PVP fit if he killed your PVP ship... Oh and rattlesnakes do way more than 150DPS with drones (5x OGRE II with bonus > 450 DPS). Also you only had 1 heavy neut; if you had 3 heavy neuts you probably coulda capped him, killed his hardeners, and killed his point. On a side note, who engages mission runners without neutral logi anymore?
Gitanmaxx
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#494 - 2012-09-05 22:37:36 UTC
As if shield tanking wasn't already better than armor tanking in every single way. This module is BS and should have been an armor module to allow it to compete with shields.
Gitanmaxx
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#495 - 2012-09-05 22:48:17 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
Sang-in Tiers wrote:

Enormous base damage? wat...

they do - which is why you usually won't see bonuses for turret damage on amarr ships and why their cap and PG requirements are balanced in a way that makes fitting them to non-amarr ships pretty much impossible.

lasers are by design overpowered relative to the other weapon types.

(my personal feeling is that lasers are in a fine place right now - they were very strong ca. 2008 but since projectiles and hybrids got buffs and the field is relatively balanced; putting them back into a significantly stronger position now would only initiate another cycle of stat inflation)


So lasers were balanced because they had high damage on hit countered. by all their huge downsides, fair enough. Then projectiles and hybrids were buffed to match. And how exactly is that still balanced? Aren't all of the detriments of lasers outdated then?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#496 - 2012-09-05 22:52:57 UTC
Gitanmaxx wrote:

So lasers were balanced because they had high damage on hit countered. by all their huge downsides, fair enough. Then projectiles and hybrids were buffed to match. And how exactly is that still balanced? Aren't all of the detriments of lasers outdated then?


IMO, no. Lasers are still a fantastic weapons system.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#497 - 2012-09-06 06:48:04 UTC
I wonder if they ever paid even slightest attention to the fitting requirements of these mods.

Compare XLASB to a LAR II, first one reps twice as much, but uses only 700 fitting, the second uses 2355.

Which means that you can't fit oversized armor reppers on ships, but you can tack oversized ASBs on any ship.

.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#498 - 2012-09-07 18:49:24 UTC
The latest dev blog mentions ASBs are being looked at. In my day broken OP items were ignored for years. And we liked it that way!
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#499 - 2012-09-08 14:53:24 UTC
Hrett wrote:
ASBs are fine.

Ill use the Cyclone because it has these obscene theoretical numbers being thrown around.

They can be soloed, despite claims to the contrary.

http://pinkiepie.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14290526

Even dual XLASB are not invincible because of alpha.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14444795

Say it out loud: "54 seconds."

That is how long they are awesome for. 54 Seconds. They might need a fitting increase to discourage dual oversized fits, but otherwise:

54 seconds.



So you need an ASB fitted Talos to take on the ASB cyclone?

Lol

brb
Beachura
Doomheim
#500 - 2012-09-08 18:31:45 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Beachura wrote:

You don't seem to understand this simple fact:

The Ancillary Shield Booster, is a DIRECT counter to the neutralizer. What do you not understand about that?


The cap booster is a direct counter to the neutralizer. The ASB is a direct counter to small gangs.

-Liang


I'd have to disagree, small gangs arrive in all shapes and sizes, the ASB as stated on the first couple of pages of this thread is the direct counter to the neutralizer, not the capacitor booster.

A neutraliser setup powerful enough will destroy a capacitor booster setup whereas an ASB will continue to function even with no capacitor.