EVE General Discussion

I would bet serious money that we have a much higher newbie retention than other corps. We have arguably the best newbie programs in EVE. Just because we don't let everyone in doesn't change that.

Hello Kyle,

I’m ISD Athechu a Commander within ISD:STAR. As stated before there is really no way to include EVERYTHING that you want in the tutorial because then the tutorial would go from like a 3-5 hours session to a 3-5 Week or even Month session and I’m sure you really don’t want that to happen. EVE does have a very big learning curve to it and yes there are player volunteer groups out there that help with the transition to EVE. EVE even has an Official group who specializes in helping new pilots enter the game. I am a member of that team called ISD:STAR. We are the In-Game ISD that you see (every so often on the forums too) and all we do is answer questions in the Help Channels. I’m just going to touch on points 2 and 3 that you made.

There are lots of player made video’s out there that explain a lot about EVE. There is also a lot of documentation by players out there as well that is written to help players understand EVE to its fullest potential. This is just one guide that I’m sure that you can find on the internet and it’s about the Market. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Market_guide

Here is a YouTube video that I found really quickly as well that explains the market: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR_HPZLX6OI (unofficial tutorial)

Now while you say the tutorial should cover these other aspects of EVE what you also need to figure out is what should be dropped from the tutorial to make room for this? Because I’m sure that most players don’t wish to go through this massively long tutorial so you want to make it as short as possible but keeping the most important stuff touched on wouldn’t you agree with me on that? Something’s just need to be learned by others teaching it to them or by just doing the research about it online since there are tons of guides out there. There is just too much about EVE to put into 1 tutorial at least in my opinion.

As for adding the human element to the tutorial that is where the ISD Program comes in as the Official Volunteer group for CCP. Now I’m not saying that there aren’t other volunteer groups out there. Of course there are and we are always happy to see other player helping each other. But ISD:STAR is the group that specializes in things like the tutorial. Which at least I run personally once every 3-4 months fully so I can help out players in the best way possible. Some of us put in long hours each month (talking 30-40+) because we enjoy what we do and enjoy helping out new players with the game. So the creation of the volunteer program that you’re thinking of has already been created and has been up and running for about as long as EVE has been around. We are always looking for more applications to the ISD Program for players to give back to the community.

One of the programs within ISD:STAR that we have created was an ISD Seminar. This is where a member of ISD would just talk about a topic for about an hour or so as well as taking questions from people who are watching the seminar take place. We haven’t done any recently due to the summer but we are going to get the program up and running again.


I personally will be happy to talk to your friend or you or anyone who has questions about anything in the game or even about applying to ISD. Just drop me a mail at any time and I will get back to you as soon as possible.

Fly safe o/


Edit: P.S - Don't forget not to fill up threads with useless or trolling posts because that's just not cool for the OP.

There is no tutorial that could "fix" players' will to learn and explore and experiment with stuff. You can show UI, click here to align, click here to but stuff, etc. but if somebody expects to be held by hand all the time Eve is not a game for him/her and it won't last long before uninstall.

What definitely can be done is revamping UI into something that is both nice looking, customizable, and delivers information when you need it.

Why ship HUD can be only docked on top or bottom and moved right/left edge of a screen?

Why overview cannot be split into separate windows one for each tab?

Why fitting window doesn't give all info EFT or EveHq give - who else than CCP has all and exact and up to date math formulas to calculate all discreet variables that affect our ships and weapons?

Why we can have a bar with offensive effects but having a bar with buffs like remote reps is a problem?

Why we cannot configure what kind of info are displayed about locked target like some of values from overview (radial velocity for example) so you don't have to have your eyes all over your screen and maybe, just MAYBE be able to enjoy awesome graphics of ships and effects during a fight?

There are multiple threads about UI revamp and such stuff but with all due respect to devs UI still looks like Win'95 not like spaceships game. And newbies probably would be more willing to try things and go places if there was more eye candy and freedom in setting up general game HUD.

Knowledge on where is a checkbox to show cans on my overview is not a mark of my advancement, it is a sign that UI is not leading me to information I want and need. If you think correct setup of overview means you are winning Eve, you are wrong - that just means you know where is a control that shows things. What intel you get and how you will use it to get advantage over your opponents - that's human factor we should all try to excel at.

Currently most players are watching Eve by not more than keyhole at the center of a screen because YOU NEED to have multiple windows open at all times to have all info needed (overview, d-scan, fleet chat, drones, log, local, cargo if they have to manage cap booster charges for example, bookmarks, and few others used occasionally like info or web browser).

Better UI is not dumbing Eve down, it is a matter of making newbies to want to learn about Eve and making them challenging targets or valuable partners as fast as possible. And god knows we could use more of that :)

Ok, rant is over, sorry.

TLDR: fix UI - tutorials are ok.

@OP

You bring many positive points and also some less positive.

The NPE tutorials just in about 2 years changed a lot, not completely but they did changed for better. Newbbie ships and T1 frigates became deadly tools in experienced hands and can be your nightmare in rookie hands when well driven.

However you mentioned something specifically interesting: the need of disconnection with other game standards

Main points you've mentioned that need some attention imho are:

->UI = invetory/grid/on board scan/flying in space/right click menu/grid options for what not and what to show, and why!

->Market = why is such an important, if not the most important part of the game and how it's driven

->progression = bigger doesn't mean better, in this particular case tutorials fail but also the game it self in his current status.
Usual progression is the result of an IG effort achieving a certain number of tasks, Eve has no connection with this most common progression style and will break many new players will to ever pass the 14D trial.

Many other points are often discussed and over discussed with more or less interest in the bigger picture or the game it self but these specific points above you have clearly illustrated are, from my point of view, very positive feedback for work.

Thx for sharing.

I don't think the objective of the tutorial should be to de-program/anchor new players explicitly.

The tutorial throws plenty of information at you, and there's tons more available on the wiki - anyone who's going to be dedicated to learning this game is going to use that information regardless. This serves as implicit de-programming, which is the best kind for a game like this because the foundations are so much different than every other MMO.

But what I think is lacking from the tutorial is content to make a player excited about their future prospects in the community. I think this can be solved by adding in videos spotlighting different parts of the community, and walking a line between marketing and information.

A video on residency would be excellent, for example. It could introduce and categorize the different types of space in New Eden to a new player - high, low, null, and wormhole. It could give passing reference to life in each of these and briefly describe benefits and risks of each (with an obligatory clip of a Hulk being explodiated by two dessies in high sec, ofc).

Similar videos could do detailed outlines of professions and how they are affected by the type of space in which they're performed.

To preempt the argument that this is useless fluff, I counter by saying that there needs to be more fluff in the tutorial. Skill training sometimes requires that you sit around for a few minutes. Meta-level video tutorials like I've mentioned would give players the ability to put their tutorial learning in context without bombarding them with too much new information.

tl;dr - tutorial needs to inspire new players more - give them flashy vidyas about where they can live and what they can do when they move there to give them a sense of purpose.

I agree with most things the OP wrote, especially this :


With a game as complex as Eve, an extensive tutorial is probably needed more than any other MMOs out there. Game contents, whether it's PvE (missioning, mining, incursions, etc.) or PvP contents won't draw and keep new players from sticking around after trying the game for the first time. Tutorial, UI (like seriously?? spreadsheet online m8), graphics and accessibility does.

People need to actually play and take control over their ship and how to access the basic features before they can even realize how good Eve really is. On other MMOs, no matter how complex the game is, most first timers can usually master the interface and how to react to their surroundings in a matter of hours if not minutes, at least the basic controls and they can learn to delve into a more complex stuff later on; in Eve, this is just not happening with our tutorial and how the game ease new players into the world of Eve.

In my experience it's not people getting lost while doing the tutorial, it's because they didn't do it. Every time a new player says they're lost and needs help I ask what tutorial they're doing and it's usually the same answer, I'm not doing any.

I believe the op's friend did like a lot of other people who come from other mmo's.

First, they came in with the idea that because they played something else they'll know how to play EVE.

Then, they realize they have to do some reading for the tutorial.

Then, they get impatient because they don't want to read what the tutorial is saying, and just want to play.

So they either "take a break" from the tutorial or just try and skip it, because they have experience in other games and think that it'll carry over to EVE. After all, if you played wow you already know how to play EQ2, Rift, SWTOR, UO, etc.; why wouldn't you know how to play EVE, it's a sandbox like UO right?

So we end up with a bunch of people who just ignore the tutorial and decide to wander around a bit until they realize they have no idea what they're doing, let alone how to get back to where they started.

The tutorials aren't perfect, some less so then others, but they're a long ways from not effective at teaching new players how to work the game. The biggest flaw is that they do a poor job of introducing new players to the sandbox nature of the game. People do the tutorials, learn how to play, and then have no idea what to do or end up bored because they thought the game was about grinding missions or mining; then they quit.


Embed video into the tutorials for the more complex mechanics, like scanning.
Have a better introduction into the sandbox part of the game. A video that gives a quick highlight of the various things the sandbox has to offer.


As for the OP and his friend, I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing he got lost in the first half hour while doing the tutorial. I believe he either thought he could skip them or he wasn't reading what it was saying. He probably made the same mistakes others have made. He came in with an assumption and it was wrong.

If you want to play the game with a worthy opponent, you have to support the idea of helping to train a worthy opponent. A decent tutorial is step one. More important is a training mechanism that allows noobs to actually practice the mechanics of pvp without having to simultaneously deal with total destruction. Consequenced play is great, but not without the foundation to make it feasible.