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CCP Devs: What's the Reasoning Behind the Recent Wardec Rule Changes?

Author
Khamal Jolstien
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#61 - 2011-10-14 17:01:29 UTC
Igualmentedos wrote:
Fix Lag wrote:
ACE McFACE wrote:
Even if everyone in RvB only flew frigates that would mean theres a lot of fair fights as its not Domi v Frigate but rather Frigates v Frigates.



when the hell did this thread become a thread about fair fights in EVE


because those don't exist, you see, and if you think they do then you are playing the wrong game.



So why is it okay for "leet PvPers" to prey on the weak players (UNFAIRLY), but it's not okay for these same "noobs" to fight back any way they can?

Why is it okay for you to be unfair, but the second the carebears get smart and realize they can get away from your wardecs you all of sudden scream how unfair it is?

Eve is not fair. That's all there is to it. If a carebear makes it really hard for you to kill him then that's perfectly okay, as long as hes not abusing any game mechanics.


Because what the "leet PvPers" do isn't unfair. What the GMs are no longer doing their jobs to enforce is a clear exploit.
Russell Casey
Doomheim
#62 - 2011-10-14 17:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Russell Casey
Fix Lag wrote:
God, please kill EVE. We deserve it.


And Hilmar heard FixLag's prayer. And He did smile. Then the Almighty spoke, "All Devs to World of Darkness, more Nex products for EVE." And EVE did die. And Hilmar was pleased, for he secretly worked for Lucasarts and Bioware. And the Goons lawled.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#63 - 2011-10-14 17:31:14 UTC
LAWL!

Come to wormholes, no sov, no war-decs, no "neutral alts", no station games, just pew-pew!

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.

Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2011-10-14 17:39:02 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
LAWL!

Come to wormholes, no sov, no war-decs, no "neutral alts", no station games, just pew-pew!


Well let's not exaggerate. Yes, wormholes are awesome. But there are station (POS) games and gate (the WH, especially if it's a HS) games.
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2011-10-14 17:56:20 UTC
Khamal Jolstien wrote:
Igualmentedos wrote:
Fix Lag wrote:
ACE McFACE wrote:
Even if everyone in RvB only flew frigates that would mean theres a lot of fair fights as its not Domi v Frigate but rather Frigates v Frigates.



when the hell did this thread become a thread about fair fights in EVE


because those don't exist, you see, and if you think they do then you are playing the wrong game.



So why is it okay for "leet PvPers" to prey on the weak players (UNFAIRLY), but it's not okay for these same "noobs" to fight back any way they can?

Why is it okay for you to be unfair, but the second the carebears get smart and realize they can get away from your wardecs you all of sudden scream how unfair it is?

Eve is not fair. That's all there is to it. If a carebear makes it really hard for you to kill him then that's perfectly okay, as long as hes not abusing any game mechanics.


Because what the "leet PvPers" do isn't unfair. What the GMs are no longer doing their jobs to enforce is a clear exploit.


But thats the thing - the GM's and by that extention, the EVE higher ups, have deemed that its NOT an exploit by coming out and saying "we're not changing anything here, you can keep doing what you're doing." Now, that doesnt mean that they cant change it, and who knows, maybe they will change it soon, but in meantime, its not an exploit per GM's. If it was, they would be banning people - doesnt look like thats happening.

Looks like the carebears won this round of PvP for now.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#66 - 2011-10-14 18:08:38 UTC
Montevius Williams wrote:
But thats the thing - the GM's and by that extention, the EVE higher ups, have deemed that its NOT an exploit by coming out and saying "we're not changing anything here, you can keep doing what you're doing."
Well, that's just it: they are coming out and saying that they're changing something by no longer considering it an exploit. And let's not kid ourselves here, they had been very clear about it being an exploit up until just a week ago.

The problem here is that it's not something they should say “keep doing it” about — it's something they should say “now, you can start doing it”. That is why it seems like such a resignation: they can't be bothered to police it so they turn not bothering into a policy and make it legal instead. People who “keep doing it” are, without any question of a doubt, exploiters who are now given a free pass.

…and, of course, then there's the fact that this screws up things immensely in highsec, but a bit of abuse will probably take care of that in due time.
Handsome Hussein
#67 - 2011-10-14 18:17:55 UTC
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the biggest issue I see here is that a decshield rules out any possibility of POS-bashing in high-sec. Otherwise it simply turns your alliance/corp into a faux-NPC org, with the associated ISK-sink.

Not being able to remove the offending structure(s) is a big deal.

Leaves only the fresh scent of pine.

Trainwreck McGee
Doomheim
#68 - 2011-10-14 18:23:29 UTC
Move to Null Sec noob leave them poor carebears alone

CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool

Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#69 - 2011-10-14 18:35:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Montevius Williams wrote:
But thats the thing - the GM's and by that extention, the EVE higher ups, have deemed that its NOT an exploit by coming out and saying "we're not changing anything here, you can keep doing what you're doing."
Well, that's just it: they are coming out and saying that they're changing something by no longer considering it an exploit. And let's not kid ourselves here, they had been very clear about it being an exploit up until just a week ago.

The problem here is that it's not something they should say “keep doing it” about — it's something they should say “now, you can start doing it”. That is why it seems like such a resignation: they can't be bothered to police it so they turn not bothering into a policy and make it legal instead. People who “keep doing it” are, without any question of a doubt, exploiters who are now given a free pass.

…and, of course, then there's the fact that this screws up things immensely in highsec, but a bit of abuse will probably take care of that in due time.



Policing the exploit might not be the issue -- CCP has likely had internal meetings about the decshield matter and what to do about it. It may just be that they couldn't find a way to properly adjust it right now without affecting other systems. It's equally likely that the fix they had in mind would require extended downtime to apply, in which case it makes more sense to bump it around on the schedule a bit, and possibly fit it into a timeslot that will already require extended downtime.

Yes, it's an exploit that's suddenly been given a green light, but there are dozens of potential reasons for why. Frankly, it's time-consuming and pointless to debate those reasons, and I'm going to see what CCP may have set for a more appropriate fix.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Igualmentedos
Perkone
Caldari State
#70 - 2011-10-14 18:41:47 UTC
Khamal Jolstien wrote:
Igualmentedos wrote:
Fix Lag wrote:
ACE McFACE wrote:
Even if everyone in RvB only flew frigates that would mean theres a lot of fair fights as its not Domi v Frigate but rather Frigates v Frigates.



when the hell did this thread become a thread about fair fights in EVE


because those don't exist, you see, and if you think they do then you are playing the wrong game.



So why is it okay for "leet PvPers" to prey on the weak players (UNFAIRLY), but it's not okay for these same "noobs" to fight back any way they can?

Why is it okay for you to be unfair, but the second the carebears get smart and realize they can get away from your wardecs you all of sudden scream how unfair it is?

Eve is not fair. That's all there is to it. If a carebear makes it really hard for you to kill him then that's perfectly okay, as long as hes not abusing any game mechanics.


Because what the "leet PvPers" do isn't unfair. What the GMs are no longer doing their jobs to enforce is a clear exploit.


I forgot neuts RR'ing is not an exploit Roll. Seriously, the whole system is ******, and sitting here bitching about JUST carebears abusing mechanics is a load of horse ****. I would much rather people ask CCP to fix it all instead of saying "I WANT EASIER KILLS SEESEEPEE!!!!111"
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#71 - 2011-10-14 19:04:23 UTC
There is more than a little wrong with how wars work in highsec currently.

For example people rarely attempt to defend highsec POS towers and instead just evacuate all their assets from the tower using haulers that can just warp straight to station at some point during the multiple hour duration of the siege and then drop the corp from the alliance and by the time you can re-declare war on them either the entire tower or at least everything valuable on/in it is gone.

Not to mention that a defender who actually fights back and wins has no way of keeping the war going on their side, you can make it mutual but the attacker can still retract at any time and in order to counterattack you have to re-declare war against the former attacker which is a huge pain in the ass because you can go from having someone by the balls to them completely turtling up during that 24 hour period in which you can't shoot them or any of their assets

Its much worse for corps than it is for alliances too, every war you declare has to go through that 24 hour vote period even if there's only one person who can vote or if all of the people who can vote have already voted.

And it irritates me to no end to see people constantly respond to peoples complaints about war mechanics with "hurr u shud muv 2 [type of space I live in]" as if that somehow lessens the need for the mechanics to be revamped.
Keno Skir
#72 - 2011-10-14 19:25:04 UTC
Fix Lag wrote:
ArmyOfMe wrote:
Fix Lag wrote:
If I had a dollar for every time someone whined that I'm a forum alt I'd have more money than Hilmar Veigar after the latest subscription numbers came in.

not whining at all, just pointing out the irony of one risk adverse player complaining about other people being risk adverseLol


I'M NOT A CHARACTER THAT EVER LOGS IN OTHER THAN THE FORUMS BECAUSE I HAVE A CATCHY NAME WHAT ABOUT THAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND


I understand that you have presented a loose discussion not involving you as a direct promise to you. Secondly that you did indeed accuse someone of avoiding risk whilst posting on a forum alt to do the very same.

The change character link is up top of these very forums, catchy name or otherwise it'd be nice to know who i'm addressing :)
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#73 - 2011-10-14 19:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Fix Lag wrote:
GM Karidor announced here that wardecs can now be avoided in ways previously considered exploits. There was no accompanying devblog or explanation.

These exploits were considered as such with good reason, because without rules against them all a corporation has to do is create shell corporations which (to sum things up) all toggle decs with each other between mutual and non mutual and have members move between them as needed, and if POSes are threatened then a corporation just has to drop from an alliance and make sure their tower is stronted.

Hoping that players forget to fuel their POSes is a pretty terrible game mechanic. Allowing people damn near impunity to go about in highsec is a pretty terrible game mechanic. Making the entire wardec system require massive amounts of meta-gaming to work is a pretty terrible game mechanic.

And promising to boost CONCORD (which Hilmar recently did via Twitter) while simultaneously nerfing the ability to fight people legitimately in highsec is ludicrously stupid and goes against the very ideal that was Eve.

Why?

Why was it changed?

Why was it changed now, and why was it changed without an overhaul of the wardec system's in-game mechanics?


This change along with anecdotal evidence of meetings between CCP employees and corporation CEOs earlier this year as well as circumstantial evidence (corporation policy change timing) reeks of favoritism towards certain groups.

Remember the Aurora program? You probably don't, because it was shut down years ago after evidence of CCP favoritism when distributing rewards surfaced.

Remember the T2 BPO scandal? CCP sure does. You still can't even say the guy's name who broke the story. CCP played favorites and gave certain groups advantages over others.

Every time CCP has played favorites and tried to hide it, **** has hit the fan and things have ended badly for everyone.

So, give us a good explanation of why the rules were arbitrarily changed for the worse on October 10th. Because your credibility, or at least what little is left, is at stake here.



If you drop from an alliance it only costs 2 mil to dec you. And then said alliance cant defend your ***** ass.

You have to un-anchor and re-anchor a POS if you switch corps, and have to have the standings in the new corp to do so, and the corp has a 7 day delay on standings.

I see a lot of nubs losing POS's over this, which IMHO is excellent. And I'm thinking CCP likes it too.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Khamal Jolstien
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#74 - 2011-10-14 20:18:19 UTC
Montevius Williams wrote:
Khamal Jolstien wrote:
Igualmentedos wrote:
Fix Lag wrote:
ACE McFACE wrote:
Even if everyone in RvB only flew frigates that would mean theres a lot of fair fights as its not Domi v Frigate but rather Frigates v Frigates.



when the hell did this thread become a thread about fair fights in EVE


because those don't exist, you see, and if you think they do then you are playing the wrong game.



So why is it okay for "leet PvPers" to prey on the weak players (UNFAIRLY), but it's not okay for these same "noobs" to fight back any way they can?

Why is it okay for you to be unfair, but the second the carebears get smart and realize they can get away from your wardecs you all of sudden scream how unfair it is?

Eve is not fair. That's all there is to it. If a carebear makes it really hard for you to kill him then that's perfectly okay, as long as hes not abusing any game mechanics.


Because what the "leet PvPers" do isn't unfair. What the GMs are no longer doing their jobs to enforce is a clear exploit.


But thats the thing - the GM's and by that extention, the EVE higher ups, have deemed that its NOT an exploit by coming out and saying "we're not changing anything here, you can keep doing what you're doing." Now, that doesnt mean that they cant change it, and who knows, maybe they will change it soon, but in meantime, its not an exploit per GM's. If it was, they would be banning people - doesnt look like thats happening.

Looks like the carebears won this round of PvP for now.

Just because they're no longer enforcing it, doesn't mean it's not an exploit by definition. It just means the GMs are no longer interested in doing the job they're paid (by us) to do. Customer service has gone by the wayside in this case. I would still highly recommend petitioning, and escalating each and every time someone takes advantage of this, as it is clearly in error.