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Missiles
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-08-30 18:38:54 UTC
Try to make this quick

1) I wish missiles had different trail effects for the different damage types.

2) The explosions don't really stand out as being different with the change in damage type

3) It would be nice if torps could get their massive shockwaves back. This is why I liked them so much.

4) Remove penalties for using t2 missiles.

They arleady have penalties and those would be.

  • Using the wrong damage type
  • Using the wrong t2 missile type (I.E. trying to use fury agains a frig)
  • The time it takes to reach the target (turrets are instant)
  • They can be outrun by small, fast ships
  • If you're in specific ships they know your range and damage type


The advantages are

  • Can choose damage type
  • only limited to max range
  • If FoF didn't suck, you could fire while jammed


So, why do we need penalties for fitting t2 missiles when missiles are practically a penalty themselves in pvp unless they're blobbed?
Sentinel zx
#2 - 2012-08-30 18:42:13 UTC
+1 support
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-08-30 19:11:53 UTC
Sentinel zx wrote:
+1 support



My big things are the t2 missile penalties and the torp explosions. I miss those massive waves.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#4 - 2012-08-30 19:19:16 UTC
1. meh can take it or leave it
2. um ... yeah they do. EM is blue electricity, kinetic is pretty boring (kinda looks like the missile just slams into the hull), don't remember explosive or thermal offhand though.
3. +1
4. agreed, something needs done (or apply the same penalty to turrets, I guess).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-08-30 19:29:04 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
1. meh can take it or leave it
2. um ... yeah they do. EM is blue electricity, kinetic is pretty boring (kinda looks like the missile just slams into the hull), don't remember explosive or thermal offhand though.
3. +1
4. agreed, something needs done (or apply the same penalty to turrets, I guess).




1) Wasn't a big deal, but they used to have different thruster colors for the damage types, so it would be cool to have a different trail for each

2) I know they have different effects, but the effects are a bit weak. They don't really stand out that well from each other.
Perhaps this can be fixed with brighter rendering and larger effects.
Like I said in my comment, I didn't mention that they were the same, I simply stated that they didn't stand out from each other.
This is what I'm looking for.

3 and 4) of course these are very valid arguments
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-08-30 19:39:53 UTC
1) trail effects are fine maybe a bit of a prob for those that cant run at high graphics but there fine.

2 + 3) totaly agree i liked the waves the torps made in missions it sorta gave an epicness of it and yeah i agree current ones dont show youve actualy hit anything that well.

4) yeah the bloated sig on however remmember rigs are supposedly changing or have changed that passives such as resists are gonna affect speed over sig. however over that i wouldnt mind the penalties on the t2 missles so much if it was a one time thing and they didnt stack over each other.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#7 - 2012-08-30 20:32:22 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Try to make this quick

1) I wish missiles had different trail effects for the different damage types.
2) The explosions don't really stand out as being different with the change in damage type
3) It would be nice if torps could get their massive shockwaves back. This is why I liked them so much.
4) Remove penalties for using t2 missiles.

They arleady have penalties and those would be.

  • Using the wrong damage type
  • Using the wrong t2 missile type (I.E. trying to use fury agains a frig)
  • The time it takes to reach the target (turrets are instant)
  • They can be outrun by small, fast ships
  • If you're in specific ships they know your range and damage type


The advantages are

  • Can choose damage type
  • only limited to max range
  • If FoF didn't suck, you could fire while jammed


So, why do we need penalties for fitting t2 missiles when missiles are practically a penalty themselves in pvp unless they're blobbed?



1. Trails aren't hugely variant. Do you want blue smoke for EM missiles, that seems like an ugly fix to me. The one option I would suggest is that thermal and explosive can be hard to distinguish between.
2. Explosions do change based on the size of the missile, rockets look very different compared to torpedoes.
3. Torps could use a nice little wave, but I think the giant 50km shockwave should be reserved for Citadel Torpedoes. It doesn't make sense to have the largest torpedo not have a shockwave if the smaller ones do.
4. T2 is about specialization, not about simply being better.

More so, the penalties you listed aren't penalties to T2 missiles, they are penalties to entire weapon systems.


  • Using the wrong damage type - Not a problem unique to T2, see projectiles or other missiles.
  • Using the wrong t2 missile type (I.E. trying to use fury agains a frig) - learn what ammo you are using before firing it, descriptions are there for a reason.
  • The time it takes to reach the target (turrets are instant) - problem with all missiles, also compensated in that you don't miss if they are outside your range.
  • They can be outrun by small, fast ships - Tracking, is a problem for turrets as well.
  • If you're in specific ships they know your range and damage type - This is true for all ships, the range variance between torps and cruise are huge and also varies based on what ammo is loaded.

serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-08-30 22:24:12 UTC
just cause they know witch ship you in dose not mean to say they know your speed or range big diff between 50 and near 70k in kestrals for example.

as far as frigs go you can get fury heavys to hit them with a fair payload of there dmg not full granted ut enough to talke em out in a few volleys usualy.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#9 - 2012-08-30 22:28:30 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Try to make this quick

1) I wish missiles had different trail effects for the different damage types.

2) The explosions don't really stand out as being different with the change in damage type

3) It would be nice if torps could get their massive shockwaves back. This is why I liked them so much.

4) Remove penalties for using t2 missiles.

They arleady have penalties and those would be.

  • Using the wrong damage type
  • Using the wrong t2 missile type (I.E. trying to use fury agains a frig)
  • The time it takes to reach the target (turrets are instant)
  • They can be outrun by small, fast ships
  • If you're in specific ships they know your range and damage type


The advantages are

  • Can choose damage type
  • only limited to max range
  • If FoF didn't suck, you could fire while jammed


So, why do we need penalties for fitting t2 missiles when missiles are practically a penalty themselves in pvp unless they're blobbed?


1-3. idc

4. Missiles need a complete rework. Maybe chance to hit could be introduced and horrendous sig resolution and explosion velocity penalties balaced with turret weapons. Also if missiles hit always when launched and players cant evade or increase chance to hit by using their skills its a bad game mechanic.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-08-30 23:30:12 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
problem with all missiles, also compensated in that you don't miss if they are outside your range.



This is just not true


Missiles can miss fast moving targets that are well within range because they can outrun them.(this is NOT the same as tracking)

Missiles can hit targets within range for 0 damage.

A target can run out of range from a missile that has already been fired.

I don't care who you are...These are misses.

Dodging missiles with speed and/or leaving range is not the same as tracking.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-08-31 13:58:29 UTC
serras bang wrote:
just cause they know witch ship you in dose not mean to say they know your speed or range big diff between 50 and near 70k in kestrals for example.

as far as frigs go you can get fury heavys to hit them with a fair payload of there dmg not full granted ut enough to talke em out in a few volleys usualy.


yes, but a fury cruise or rage torp will hit a frig for next to nothing, which might as well be considered a miss.

That said, I'm not suggesting a revamp of how missiles work, mearly better graphics on their explosions and trails so that they stand out from each other.

The removal of t2 penalties in my mind is actually a matter of balancing.

Example.

Say you take a raven vs a megathron.

Both ships have the same EHP and tanking capability.
Both have the same dps.

Now, the raven has the advantage of only having a max range.
The Mega has the advantage of instant damage.

The Raven has the disadvantage of flight time on missiles.
The Mega has the disadvantage of optimal range.

However, the Raven also has the disadvantage of increase sig with fury/rage, or slower movement with precision/javelin.
This means that they have the same tank, ehp, and dps, but the raven is a large or slower target and if the Mega has him in optimal, then the raven is screwed.

Not to mention that even if they had the same rate of fire, and both fired their killing blow at the same time, the raven would go down but the mega would not because any volleys the raven had in the air at the time of his destruction no longer count.

This is another thing that should be adressed. A missile should always contact the target once it has been fired, even if you ship is destroyed before it reaches the target.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-09-01 11:10:12 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
serras bang wrote:
just cause they know witch ship you in dose not mean to say they know your speed or range big diff between 50 and near 70k in kestrals for example.

as far as frigs go you can get fury heavys to hit them with a fair payload of there dmg not full granted ut enough to talke em out in a few volleys usualy.


yes, but a fury cruise or rage torp will hit a frig for next to nothing, which might as well be considered a miss.

That said, I'm not suggesting a revamp of how missiles work, mearly better graphics on their explosions and trails so that they stand out from each other.

The removal of t2 penalties in my mind is actually a matter of balancing.

Example.

Say you take a raven vs a megathron.

Both ships have the same EHP and tanking capability.
Both have the same dps.

Now, the raven has the advantage of only having a max range.
The Mega has the advantage of instant damage.

The Raven has the disadvantage of flight time on missiles.
The Mega has the disadvantage of optimal range.

However, the Raven also has the disadvantage of increase sig with fury/rage, or slower movement with precision/javelin.
This means that they have the same tank, ehp, and dps, but the raven is a large or slower target and if the Mega has him in optimal, then the raven is screwed.

Not to mention that even if they had the same rate of fire, and both fired their killing blow at the same time, the raven would go down but the mega would not because any volleys the raven had in the air at the time of his destruction no longer count.

This is another thing that should be adressed. A missile should always contact the target once it has been fired, even if you ship is destroyed before it reaches the target.


hell mate i hear what you said here but if cal ships keep going the way they are we will continuasly be outpassed in speed in every single class.
RangerGord
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#13 - 2012-09-02 14:16:09 UTC
Since this was never completed addressed:

You said that the different missile types didn't differentiate themselves with their explosions/effects. To that sir I say stop playing on minimal settings or something. It is very easy to tell the difference between what type of missile is hitting you, or someone else.

EM: large blue electrical mess (with static/spark sound effects)

Therm: huge fireball with heat distortion (generally red/orange in nature, typical fire colors)

Kin: simply a impact with a clear shockwave, with the broken bits of the missile scattering in various directions with white smoke trails (also sounds like a large thud, as if something just slammed into your ship)

Exp: an explosive impact, likened to a fireworks display (yellow/orange in nature), with a few bits scattering off in different directions kinda like the Kinectic impact but with yellow'ish trails and sparkling effects
Tivookz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-09-04 09:06:39 UTC
I have not logged on for a while.. are the new missile effects live?
Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#15 - 2012-09-04 09:15:18 UTC
Yes, they have been for a while now.
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#16 - 2012-09-04 12:18:55 UTC
Tivookz wrote:
I have not logged on for a while.. are the new missile effects live?


They are and have been for quite some time

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
Lilly la sanglante
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-09-06 20:54:46 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Try to make this quick

1) I wish missiles had different trail effects for the different damage types.

2) The explosions don't really stand out as being different with the change in damage type

3) It would be nice if torps could get their massive shockwaves back. This is why I liked them so much.

4) Remove penalties for using t2 missiles.

They arleady have penalties and those would be.

  • Using the wrong damage type
  • Using the wrong t2 missile type (I.E. trying to use fury agains a frig)
  • The time it takes to reach the target (turrets are instant)
  • They can be outrun by small, fast ships
  • If you're in specific ships they know your range and damage type


The advantages are

  • Can choose damage type
  • only limited to max range
  • If FoF didn't suck, you could fire while jammed


So, why do we need penalties for fitting t2 missiles when missiles are practically a penalty themselves in pvp unless they're blobbed?


1-3. idc

4. Missiles need a complete rework. Maybe chance to hit could be introduced and horrendous sig resolution and explosion velocity penalties balaced with turret weapons. Also if missiles hit always when launched and players cant evade or increase chance to hit by using their skills its a bad game mechanic.



Missiles are directly affect by sig radius, regardless if the ship is standing still. If a turret is firing at a still target, it hits for full damage..I would agree with it, if they always hit for full damage on stand still targets, but dont forget unlike turrets...Missiles have travel time and from far away, they are useless in a gate camp or allow the target to warp out before they are even hit.
Turrets are and always will be better in pvp..

So your suggestion is a no go.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-09-06 23:11:58 UTC
RangerGord wrote:
Since this was never completed addressed:

You said that the different missile types didn't differentiate themselves with their explosions/effects. To that sir I say stop playing on minimal settings or something. It is very easy to tell the difference between what type of missile is hitting you, or someone else.

EM: large blue electrical mess (with static/spark sound effects)

Therm: huge fireball with heat distortion (generally red/orange in nature, typical fire colors)

Kin: simply a impact with a clear shockwave, with the broken bits of the missile scattering in various directions with white smoke trails (also sounds like a large thud, as if something just slammed into your ship)

Exp: an explosive impact, likened to a fireworks display (yellow/orange in nature), with a few bits scattering off in different directions kinda like the Kinectic impact but with yellow'ish trails and sparkling effects




all this...The more grandiose graphics of old were ditched to give the new missile look and not kill the server. I personally like the new stuff. The stupid torp detonation ring....glad its gone. All those pixels and colours and unless a pos no indication of actual damage put out. TBH...I zoomed way the hell out to not see it.


and well you should know what the hell you are firing before you fire it. Call it being jaded from gun use....using the wrong ammo to engage a target is a pebkac issue, not game graphic one. Not even claiming to be a pro....I run the wrong ammo, it gets me a tard death in pvp or I say screw this and add time to mission to redock and put in the right ammo, I go find me towel to wipe the egg off my face and go lets not do that again anytime soon.

Not like missles have it hard in this area for pvp or pve. the nice mission agent (or being in say blood rat space) tells you your pve ammo needed. PVP....man kinetic or em ammo. Unless you are going for a real deal uncontested pos bash and know you need a certain off type you can just pretend exp and therm don't exist. And thats if they let you bring the raven for the job. In a phoenix (or nag) you should have the game experience at that point to know what you need. And the common sense to load it before going for the siege powered beat down.
Ellariona
B52 Bombers
#19 - 2012-09-06 23:45:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ellariona
Joe Risalo wrote:
Try to make this quick

1) I wish missiles had different trail effects for the different damage types.
2) The explosions don't really stand out as being different with the change in damage type
3) It would be nice if torps could get their massive shockwaves back. This is why I liked them so much.
4) remove penalties for using t2 missiles.

They arleady have penalties and those would be.

  • Using the wrong damage type
  • Using the wrong t2 missile type (I.E. trying to use fury agains a frig)
  • The time it takes to reach the target (turrets are instant)
  • They can be outrun by small, fast ships
  • If you're in specific ships they know your range and damage type

The advantages are

  • Can choose damage type
  • only limited to max range
  • If FoF didn't suck, you could fire while jammed

So, why do we need penalties for fitting t2 missiles when missiles are practically a penalty themselves in pvp unless they're blobbed?


  1. You see the damage type when it hits. Colouring the smoke/trail wouldn't be realistic nor necessary
  2. Maybe a bit
  3. God no, they were ugly and dropped framerates when in big bomber gangs.
  4. What penalty? There's two types of tech II torps used for specific purposes and you also have faction torps as an intermediate option. Just as you have with any other type weapon. Since you don't have tracking and falloff on missiles, there's not much else they can put a penalty on.

  • DEAR GOD, are you going to complain about the most useful thing about missiles? being able to pick damage types? And choosing the wrong type is about pilot error...
  • Again, pilot error. Which can happen to turret based weapons too
  • More time, but more average range and bigger volleys as well.
  • Again, tracking on turrets can be abused by small ships too
  • Again, the same rule applies to non-missile based ships. Nearly any ship can choose between 2 viable weapon systems. A good pvp'er will nearly always know what weapon system his target/opponent is using by just 'looking at' or listening to the sound it makes and seeing the effects reach his ship :p Also, you can still choose between HAM or HML, rockets or standards or assaults, cruises or torps. And then again, you can pick whatever damage type you want while keeping the same range.
Don't you dare say missiles are a bad choice in pvp!

  1. You don't use cap
  2. You can pick dmg type
  3. You have a really decent range
  4. You can adapt your ammunition to fit target sig radius
  5. No tracking or falloff involved, so you don't have to worry about orbit, approach and other manoeuvers for that. All you have to do is keep in range of targets and make sure you're not tackled.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-09-07 16:45:14 UTC
Ellariona wrote:

What penalty? There's two types of tech II torps used for specific purposes and you also have faction torps as an intermediate option. Just as you have with any other type weapon. Since you don't have tracking and falloff on missiles, there's not much else they can put a penalty on.



Precision/javelin missiles reduce the speed of your ship

rage/fury missiles increase the sig radius of your ship

Those are the penalties I'm talking about for using t2 ammo



Quote:

No tracking or falloff involved, so you don't have to worry about orbit, approach and other manoeuvers for that. All you have to do is keep in range of targets and make sure you're not tackled.




We don't have tracking or falloff, however, we have issues that are similar, and some that are worse.



These effects would be

missile velocity and explosion velocity.
These can be outrun.



Now, we do have to worry about orbitting targets.



I'll give you an example.


If a target is approaching directly at me and I fire a volley, the volley will fly straight at the target and explode in front of them forcing them to fly into the explosion.



Now, if a target is orbitting me, my volley has to chase him and will actually explode behind him, allowing him time to get out of the exp radius.

Believe it or not, this actually effects the damage you do, even if they're still in the explosion radius.



The best example I can use to represent this is when I used to fly a golem.

I could 1 shot frigs and cruisers that were on the approach.
However, once they got into orbit, it would take at least 3 javelin torps to take them down.


So, when it comes to relation to tracking, there is obviously some hidden factor on missiles that allows targets to negate some damage, even if they're within the explosion radius.




Now, as far as keeping in range of the target.


If I'm 75km away from a target, and when I hover over my launchers they show that I have 80km range, well, I may not hit the target because there is a fudge factor that no one seems to have the answer for.
This fudge factor is acceleration time, which is something turrets don't have to factor.

However, we can't factor it ourselves because different missile sizes will have different acceleration times.
So, a heavy missile will accelerate faster than a cruise missile or torpedo.



So, like I said, if a target is at 75 km, a missile will probably miss, and if the target is orbitting, you will definitely miss.


The reason you will certainly miss is if the target is going 1000m/s, then for every second of travel time you missile has to go, he will have added another 1km.


So, if your missile takes 5 seconds to go 75km, then he will have gone another 5km, making it 80km and you will certainly miss.



Turrets don't have to worry about someone out running an already fired volley.



You don't have to sit and wait before you know if you're within range of hitting a target.

Once you lock the target, you can instantly engage them.

If you're destroyed, your last fired volley always hits. Missiles will not.

In some ways missiles are easier than turrets, but in a lot of other ways, they're more complicated.