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The Case for Removing Learning Implants

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#361 - 2012-09-01 16:45:19 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
So, what you're saying is, you don't want to even listen to ideas such as "remove learning implants, boost base stats" or "be able to unplug implants" because oh god it was suggested by people from nullsec.

Okay, then.


No, I listened to it alright. I just think it's a terrible idea, for many obvious reasons. Not because it was proposed by somebody from nullsec, it's just terrible in it's own right. That it benefits nullsec more than the rest of EVE is self-evident. That nullsec residents are crying for nerfs to all of EVE to benefit their style of gaming really isn't surprising as you do it all the time. That's not me being biased against nullsec, that's me being unbiased. Unlike, you know, the rag that this terrible idea came from.


Glad you have to resort to calling me a "rag" to make your point. Am I supposed to be offended somehow?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Suqq Madiq
#362 - 2012-09-01 16:46:21 UTC
Andski wrote:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
So, what you're saying is, you don't want to even listen to ideas such as "remove learning implants, boost base stats" or "be able to unplug implants" because oh god it was suggested by people from nullsec.

Okay, then.


No, I listened to it alright. I just think it's a terrible idea, for many obvious reasons. Not because it was proposed by somebody from nullsec, it's just terrible in it's own right. That it benefits nullsec more than the rest of EVE is self-evident. That nullsec residents are crying for nerfs to all of EVE to benefit their style of gaming really isn't surprising as you do it all the time. That's not me being biased against nullsec, that's me being unbiased. Unlike, you know, the rag that this terrible idea came from.


Glad you have to resort to calling me a "rag" to make your point.


LOL. I'm not calling you a rag. Rag is another word for a newspaper or, in this case, a news website. Man it's funny when people make stupid mistakes like the one you just made.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#363 - 2012-09-01 16:48:11 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
LOL. I'm not calling you a rag. Rag is another word for a newspaper or, in this case, a news website. Man it's funny when people make stupid mistakes like the one you just made.


It's funny that the idea didn't come from TheMittani.com, nor did it come from me. The idea predates the site and even my time in this game.

Look at you making a mistake! l0l

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#364 - 2012-09-01 16:48:35 UTC
Anything else?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#365 - 2012-09-01 16:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Aruken Marr wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Its a progression thing. You don't want newbies to rush to a BS who don't know how to properly fly it nor afford to lose it, that's why you go through the paces. Eve isn't about instant gratification, its not about streamlining to the top. You work your way up. Having newbies think that they NEED to be inline with players who are 5-6 year vets is a poor mentality and argument. That's usually where most fail and end up quitting. They see everyone else in a T3 or BS and rush too it, get it blown up then they are broke. That's not a game mechanic problem that's a mentality issue. Same goes for implants.

Once again if you do bump attributes up +5 and remove learning implants, then people will just look at that as baseline and want more ways to speed it up, it would be a endless cycle. So look at non implant speed as normal and any increase is a bonus, not mandatory.


You're right. It is bad attitude, hence I pointed it out as one. It's something becomes easier to get over the longer you play because you begin acquire the skills you need. I understand where you're coming from with gradual progression. I understand that, that is part of the purpose of implants.

Gradual progression applies well to pvp as you can still perform an effective role at one thing as newbie and as you progress you more options open up to you. All implants do is provide a means to train a skill faster (skills that new players are already lacking.) I just feel that it's an necessary handicap to new players and adds nothing to the game other than reward the risk averse.


As I stated in the 2nd part. Implants allow those who wish to spend the money to get a advantage over the norm, and since this is Eve there is risk attached to said advantage. You remove that and people who want that advantage and those who like to min/max **** will be asking for it again. Having implants the way it is, is a good balance for those who want a advantage and those who want to destroy that advantage.

Edit: Guess I should have quoted who I was talking too.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#366 - 2012-09-01 16:54:36 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
As I stated in the 2nd part. Implants allow those who wish to spend the money to get a advantage over the norm, and since this is Eve there is risk attached to said advantage. You remove that and people who want that advantage and those who like to min/max **** will be asking for it again. Having implants the way it is, is a good balance for those who want a advantage and those who want to destroy that advantage.

From my understanding, the expectation is you will die and will lose your pod in a fleet encounter. Not having learning implants is wasting subscription time (SP is the most valuable thing in eve) and you need (because you will lose the pod) to switch out to pvp if there is any chance of a fleet fight of even middling size.

If the expectation of the loss (losing the implants) is approaching one hundred percent there's no reason to take the risk at all. If there's no reason to take the risk, no-one will take it. If no-one in their right mind takes the risk, why include it in the game when it stops people, especially newbies, having fun?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#367 - 2012-09-01 16:55:53 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
I just think it's a terrible idea, for many obvious reasons.

And what are these "obvious reasons"?

Still waiting.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Suqq Madiq
#368 - 2012-09-01 17:02:23 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
I just think it's a terrible idea, for many obvious reasons.

And what are these "obvious reasons"?

Still waiting.


Terrible movie.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#369 - 2012-09-01 17:03:41 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
I just think it's a terrible idea, for many obvious reasons.

And what are these "obvious reasons"?

Still waiting.


Terrible movie.

So these "obvious reasons" aren't so obvious that you can list them?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#370 - 2012-09-01 17:07:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Benny Ohu wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
As I stated in the 2nd part. Implants allow those who wish to spend the money to get a advantage over the norm, and since this is Eve there is risk attached to said advantage. You remove that and people who want that advantage and those who like to min/max **** will be asking for it again. Having implants the way it is, is a good balance for those who want a advantage and those who want to destroy that advantage.

From my understanding, the expectation is you will die and will lose your pod in a fleet encounter. Not having learning implants is wasting subscription time (SP is the most valuable thing in eve) and you need (because you will lose the pod) to switch out to pvp if there is any chance of a fleet fight of even middling size.

If the expectation of the loss (losing the implants) is approaching one hundred percent there's no reason to take the risk at all. If there's no reason to take the risk, no-one will take it. If no-one in their right mind takes the risk, why include it in the game when it stops people, especially newbies, having fun?


It should be the expectation that your going to die, you should also have that expectation when installing implants. With anything else you factor in what you can afford and what you can afford to lose and replace. That's the whole premise behind it. Expensive implants aren't for newbies nor should it be promoted as that. Most newbies can get the lower end implants and replace them if they lose them. Its when you get into the higher tiered ones that should be for those who are willing to take that chance or who can afford them.

The issue with removing them I already covered, you are just asking for an endless cycle of bumping up attributes,

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#371 - 2012-09-01 17:08:52 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
As I stated in the 2nd part. Implants allow those who wish to spend the money to get a advantage over the norm, and since this is Eve there is risk attached to said advantage. You remove that and people who want that advantage and those who like to min/max **** will be asking for it again. Having implants the way it is, is a good balance for those who want a advantage and those who want to destroy that advantage.

From my understanding, the expectation is you will die and will lose your pod in a fleet encounter. Not having learning implants is wasting subscription time (SP is the most valuable thing in eve) and you need (because you will lose the pod) to switch out to pvp if there is any chance of a fleet fight of even middling size.

If the expectation of the loss (losing the implants) is approaching one hundred percent there's no reason to take the risk at all. If there's no reason to take the risk, no-one will take it. If no-one in their right mind takes the risk, why include it in the game when it stops people, especially newbies, having fun?


It should be the expectation that your going to die, you should also have that expectation when installing implants. With anything else you factor in what you can afford and what you can afford to lose and replace. That's the whole premise behind it. Expensive implants aren't for newbies nor should it be promoted as that. Most newbies can get the lower end implants and replace them if they lose them. Its when you get into the higher tiered ones that should be for those who are willing to take that chance or who can afford them.

The issue with removing them I already covered, you are just asking for an endless cycle of bumping up attributes,

You're totally right, high end learning implants should only be for highsec carebears.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#372 - 2012-09-01 17:10:38 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
It should be the expectation that your going to die, you should also have that expectation when installing implants. With anything else you factor in what you can afford and what you can afford to lose and replace. That's the whole premise behind it.

Which, in turn, means that either you're going to get punished for putting in +5s by having to pay for new ones constantly, train slower, or miss out on PVP because you can't take the implants out.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#373 - 2012-09-01 17:11:31 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Its when you get into the higher tiered ones that should be for those who are willing to take that chance or who can afford them.


The higher-tiered ones do the same thing whether you're docked up in an empire library station with a jump clone that you never undock, much to the dismay of the wartargets who see your name in local, or flying a tackle frigate with that clone. There is literally no benefit gained from flying with +5s versus parking them in a skillbook station clone.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#374 - 2012-09-01 17:12:24 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

You're totally right, high end learning implants should only be for highsec carebears.


If that's how you feel then sure. However it could also be for those who have the disposable income to factor in 150m extra onto the ships they fly in order to get that boost. Its all about how you perceive wealth.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#375 - 2012-09-01 17:13:42 UTC
In short, the risk vs. reward is out of whack. There's no reward for the added risk.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#376 - 2012-09-01 17:14:01 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

You're totally right, high end learning implants should only be for highsec carebears.


If that's how you feel then sure. However it could also be for those who have the disposable income to factor in 150m extra onto the ships they fly in order to get that boost. Its all about how you perceive wealth.

No.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Suqq Madiq
#377 - 2012-09-01 17:14:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Suqq Madiq
Andski wrote:
There is literally no benefit gained from flying with +5s versus parking them in a skillbook station clone.


Of course there is benefit. The benefit is that you can play the game while simultaneously skilling up at the fastest possible rate. Flying in space is the benefit, and what greater benefit could there be?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#378 - 2012-09-01 17:16:32 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Andski wrote:
There is literally no benefit gained from flying with +5s versus parking them in a skillbook station clone.


Of course there is benefit. The benefit is that you can play the game. Flying in space is the benefit, and what greater benefit could there be?

What kind of an argument is that? No wonder you post with an NPC alt; you're too lazy to make arguments you can actually get behind.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#379 - 2012-09-01 17:17:59 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Andski wrote:
There is literally no benefit gained from flying with +5s versus parking them in a skillbook station clone.


Of course there is benefit. The benefit is that you can play the game while simultaneously skilling up at the fastest possible rate. Flying in space is the benefit, and what greater benefit could there be?

So, still waiting for this "list of obvious reasons" you touted.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Suqq Madiq
#380 - 2012-09-01 17:18:16 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Andski wrote:
There is literally no benefit gained from flying with +5s versus parking them in a skillbook station clone.


Of course there is benefit. The benefit is that you can play the game. Flying in space is the benefit, and what greater benefit could there be?

What kind of an argument is that? No wonder you post with an NPC alt; you're too lazy to make arguments you can actually get behind.


Are you saying that flying with +5 implants DOESN'T give you the benefit of both flying in space while skilling up at the fastest possible rate? Don't tell me that's what you're saying.