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The Highsec quandry.
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Anslo
Scope Works
#141 - 2012-08-31 14:16:06 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Translation: Let them affect you (every mineral they mine lowers the price of anything I would mine) without any consequeces other than suicide attacks, and be happy about it!


Well for the "leet" crowd, why not take your own advice, jump into low, nul or w-space, and mine rare asteroids instead of trying to ruin affect THEIR gameplay, hmm?


Jenn aSide wrote:
The mission runners are fine, they are sinking isk that would otherwise enter the economy if they were in player corps and taking in less personal income as a trade off for war dec invulnerability, but miners are introducing more material into the game without having to worry about anything but the (now harder) suicide ganker.


Cheaper ships sound good to me. Shouldn't pvp'ers and others be happy that theyll get the cheaper vessels and weapons to the point where their precious ganking becomes profitable? Like I said, if they want play that way, let them play. YOU shouldn't affect THEIR gameplay, just like THEY don't go out of their way to affect YOURS.

Miners gonna Mine.
Haters gonna Hate.


[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#142 - 2012-08-31 14:29:04 UTC
No one can be this dense, or so I thought.

Quote:

Well for the "leet" crowd, why not take your own advice, jump into low, nul or w-space, and mine rare asteroids instead of trying to ruin affect THEIR gameplay, hmm?


If you would go to the missions and complexs forums you will see what I do, I play all over.

Not the point. The point is the npc miners are affecting the rest of us, we should be able to affect them back (lol). The current state is unfair.


Quote:

Cheaper ships sound good to me. Shouldn't pvp'ers and others be happy that theyll get the cheaper vessels and weapons to the point where their precious ganking becomes profitable? Like I said, if they want play that way, let them play. YOU shouldn't affect THEIR gameplay, just like THEY don't go out of their way to affect YOURS.

Miners gonna Mine.
Haters gonna Hate.




This is what I call a "tell", because it tells us that you have a loack of general morality, and thus project that onto others.

So, because these un-war-deccable NPC miners are providing us with cheap ships, it makes the unfairness of the situation less unfair? Because, as long as I benefit from something, it's ok right?

Wrong.

If I have to pay an ingame price for my chosen activity (and I do), everyone should have to, or no one at all should have to.
Anslo
Scope Works
#143 - 2012-08-31 14:32:56 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
No one can be this dense, or so I thought.

Quote:

Well for the "leet" crowd, why not take your own advice, jump into low, nul or w-space, and mine rare asteroids instead of trying to ruin affect THEIR gameplay, hmm?


If you would go to the missions and complexs forums you will see what I do, I play all over.

Not the point. The point is the npc miners are affecting the rest of us, we should be able to affect them back (lol). The current state is unfair.


Quote:

Cheaper ships sound good to me. Shouldn't pvp'ers and others be happy that theyll get the cheaper vessels and weapons to the point where their precious ganking becomes profitable? Like I said, if they want play that way, let them play. YOU shouldn't affect THEIR gameplay, just like THEY don't go out of their way to affect YOURS.

Miners gonna Mine.
Haters gonna Hate.




This is what I call a "tell", because it tells us that you have a loack of general morality, and thus project that onto others.

So, because these un-war-deccable NPC miners are providing us with cheap ships, it makes the unfairness of the situation less unfair? Because, as long as I benefit from something, it's ok right?

Wrong.

If I have to pay an ingame price for my chosen activity (and I do), everyone should have to, or no one at all should have to.


All I hear is baaaaw it's unfair they don't get taxed and are safe lasering rocks baaaaw.

Just where is the negative affect aside from some cheap minerals for cheaper gear. If that's it, then get over it.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#144 - 2012-08-31 14:35:29 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
No one can be this dense, or so I thought.

Quote:

Well for the "leet" crowd, why not take your own advice, jump into low, nul or w-space, and mine rare asteroids instead of trying to ruin affect THEIR gameplay, hmm?


If you would go to the missions and complexs forums you will see what I do, I play all over.

Not the point. The point is the npc miners are affecting the rest of us, we should be able to affect them back (lol). The current state is unfair.


Quote:

Cheaper ships sound good to me. Shouldn't pvp'ers and others be happy that theyll get the cheaper vessels and weapons to the point where their precious ganking becomes profitable? Like I said, if they want play that way, let them play. YOU shouldn't affect THEIR gameplay, just like THEY don't go out of their way to affect YOURS.

Miners gonna Mine.
Haters gonna Hate.




This is what I call a "tell", because it tells us that you have a loack of general morality, and thus project that onto others.

So, because these un-war-deccable NPC miners are providing us with cheap ships, it makes the unfairness of the situation less unfair? Because, as long as I benefit from something, it's ok right?

Wrong.

If I have to pay an ingame price for my chosen activity (and I do), everyone should have to, or no one at all should have to.


All I hear is baaaaw it's unfair they don't get taxed and are safe lasering rocks baaaaw.

Just where is the negative affect aside from some cheap minerals for cheaper gear. If that's it, then get over it.



No
Anslo
Scope Works
#145 - 2012-08-31 14:38:00 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
No


Then stop posting and leave the NPC bears alone. If they wanna mine, let them mine.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#146 - 2012-08-31 14:47:32 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:


Haulers can still be protected in NPC corps though.
Not that ganking them was ever hard and could still happen to save on wardec cost. Yet we could always make ore illegal if not in a player corp. How about that?


LOL, wow dude. You just dropped the ball on this one.

This is basically you saying "Do as I say, not as I do."

So, you don't want miners to be safe from wardecs because it doesn't fall into your master plan of plenty of easy to kill war targets,
HOWEVER, you want your hauler alt to be nice and safe from wars.

lol.

Kinda hypocritcal if you ask me.

That said though, CCP just rebalanced miners and will soon rebalance industrials to have larger tanking capabilities as well.

The entire point behind this is to

1) make t1 ships more viable

and

2) Reduce the gap in the isk lost/cost of gank fleet

The way it was before the miner buffs was that t1 ships sucked and a hulk fitted with pure tank costing 300 mil or more could be ganked by a fleet of 4 catalyst costing 60 mil at most.

So, the new balances mean that if you wanna gank a miner, you're gonna have to put a lot more thought into your fleet composition and if they're tank fitted at all, then you're gonna have to put a lot more isk into your gank fleet as well.

The higher tanking capabilities on barges and exhumers was specifically to counter act ganking.

CCP understood that it was too cheap and easy to gank miners and could even be profitable if you're lucky.

So, instead of you throwing out suggestions to better your life such as giving you more war targets but protecting your transports, why don't you either deal with it or GTFO.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#147 - 2012-08-31 14:59:47 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
No


Then stop posting and leave the NPC bears alone. If they wanna mine, let them mine.


My posting isn't preventing anyone from mining, I'm simply calling attention to an unfair situation. Fairness is an important aspect of a game, and any for-profit business should strive to provide it.

Since overall fairness is not an important concept to you, feel free to ignore my postings.
Anslo
Scope Works
#148 - 2012-08-31 15:01:12 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
No


Then stop posting and leave the NPC bears alone. If they wanna mine, let them mine.


My posting isn't preventing anyone from mining, I'm simply calling attention to an unfair situation. Fairness is an important aspect of a game, and any for-profit business should strive to provide it.

Since overall fairness is not an important concept to you, feel free to ignore my postings.


Since when was Eve fair? Do you ignore the "working as intended" posts spewed by pvpers? The touting of this game as dark, harsh and, oh yeah, unfair?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#149 - 2012-08-31 15:10:29 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
You vets are hilarious. Most of the problems of this game are actually vet created. You created the mess that is nullsec. You created the mess that is low sec via gate camps and such. YOU have created the problem with highsec by relentlessly exploiting the ruleset to kill newbies. You scream and cry about newbies staying in the NPC corps and then when one tries to join your corp you scream "SPY ALT!!!" or "NOT ENOUGH SP!!!" all day at them. So newbies have the choice of staying in the NPC corp or taking a risk on a small corp that is very likely a ****** corp. On top of that when you don't scream about spies or SP issues you take the opportunity to scam the newbie by taking everything they have or by killing them. Then you come to the forums acting all surprised when newbies stay in the NPC corp.

In case you're wondering I was welcomed to eve by having my first ship ganked when I undocked to do the tutorial missions. Dude just killed me for no apparent reason and when I asked why he screamed "NEWBIE CAREBEAR GET OUT OF NPC CORP" and then blocked me. Days later when I attempted to start mining I was ganked in my hoarder. This doesn't include the rampant can flipping and overall obsession of certain vets who make it a point to hang in the newbie areas just to grief people.

If you want this game to change you might want to take a moment and look at your own actions and how they might be contributing to the problems at hand. You're not hardcore and this game isn't hardcore either. I've seen hundreds of similar games over my decades of game playing. There's nothing special about your ability to play this game. Get over yourself and you might start to see the true problems here. Or you can continue your forum circle jerk about how eve is "cold and hard" and how special you are as people to play such a "cold and hard" game. If you want true "cold and hard" you should turn off the computer and go outside.

I've said my peace as a newbie to this game.

I agree with this post, if they're wasn't soooo much a$$ hattery going on then people wouldn't feel like this, now to the OP, there is sooooo many f'ing ways to get PVP but what it sounds like is a whine about easy ganking, yeah I know my ibis should one shot that damn procurer, com'on is griefing the only thing that give your life a meaningful existence.
Versteckter
Infragilis Conventio Corp.
#150 - 2012-08-31 15:50:50 UTC
Sorry I ruin the game for all you guys.
I have a two year old so I get distracted easy. But I love the game and I'm happy shooting rocks, for now. I mostly just sell kernite when the market is favorable so I can collect more ships. It's what I like to do. I'm sorry I ruin the game for everyone else. I'll try to shoot less rocks in the future.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#151 - 2012-08-31 15:59:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Joe Risalo wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:


Haulers can still be protected in NPC corps though.
Not that ganking them was ever hard and could still happen to save on wardec cost. Yet we could always make ore illegal if not in a player corp. How about that?


LOL, wow dude. You just dropped the ball on this one.

This is basically you saying "Do as I say, not as I do."

This was under the original context of making a high sec miners license which I admited would leave some jobs still protected via NPC corps. Then shortly afterward someone came up with the idea of just kicking all players after X amount of time or SP met. Which I like better than leaving ANY job protected by any NPC corp.

Its better to ask for clarification than go on a presumptuous rant beforehand.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#152 - 2012-08-31 16:01:44 UTC  |  Edited by: MIrple
OK Ansol if what you say is leave the NPC people alone then let them have there own market where anything they buy or sell is seeded by CCP at a set price. They don't want to be effected by US we don't want to be effected by them.

Yes I realize how stupid that sounds.

Better Idea would be to give them a 15% refine tax for being in an NPC corp on top of all current taxes imposed on them by which ever faction
Valari Nala Zena
Perkone
Caldari State
#153 - 2012-08-31 16:43:41 UTC
As a highsec bear, i love these threads. You have my permission to carry on!
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#154 - 2012-08-31 16:46:53 UTC
Valari Nala Zena wrote:
As a highsec bear, i love these threads. You have my permission to carry on!


Well I am glad we have your permission.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#155 - 2012-08-31 16:56:36 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
No


Then stop posting and leave the NPC bears alone. If they wanna mine, let them mine.


My posting isn't preventing anyone from mining, I'm simply calling attention to an unfair situation. Fairness is an important aspect of a game, and any for-profit business should strive to provide it.

Since overall fairness is not an important concept to you, feel free to ignore my postings.


Since when was Eve fair? Do you ignore the "working as intended" posts spewed by pvpers? The touting of this game as dark, harsh and, oh yeah, unfair?


You're conflating issues, and the term is Harsh Dark and Cold.

When I talk about fairness, I'm talking about the game imposing the same rewards and penalties across the board (modified of course by the in-game situation).

In this case, it's not fair or EVE like that miners in player corps are exposed to both war-decs AND suicide ganking while the NPC miner is only threated but suicide ganking while being able to do the exact same thing as the who ventured out of the npc corp did.

No such unfairness exists for mission runnners and explorers like me, the NPC corp mission runner/explorer is paying higher taxes in trade for safety from war decs, I'm war-deccable, but keep my own money.

Can you not understand that this is unfair , not to me, but to player corp high sec miners? The OPs idea is to just make things more even for people who don't hide in npc corps.

Yes, i get it, you're butt hurt by what pvp'rs say (funny you choose to play a pvp centric game where THE DEVELOPERS make videos telling people to HTFU), this is no reason for unfairness.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#156 - 2012-08-31 17:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Versteckter wrote:
Sorry I ruin the game for all you guys.
I have a two year old so I get distracted easy. But I love the game and I'm happy shooting rocks, for now. I mostly just sell kernite when the market is favorable so I can collect more ships. It's what I like to do. I'm sorry I ruin the game for everyone else. I'll try to shoot less rocks in the future.


You're not ruining the game for anyone, you are benefiting from an imbalanced situation that the game makers seem to have so far overlooked when they imposed the npc corp tax.

While I'm not a fan of people hiding in npc corps forever (I would support a timelimit), the fact is mission runners do have to take a hit for the npc corp protection, and I think at the very least miners should take the same hit.

NPC corp Miners resisting the idea of a level playing field (with NPC corp mission runners and player corp miners) are just being selfish In my opinion.
Xiode
Nemesis Logistics
Goonswarm Federation
#157 - 2012-08-31 17:12:53 UTC
Don't disband my NPC corp! Evil
Kale Eledar
Venerated Industries
#158 - 2012-08-31 17:35:15 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:


What if I try and mine while in a NPC corp?
Concord shows up and confiscates any miner highslots from your fit. (after a warning screen for an invalid target of course)
…

As if I wasn't clear enough:
DOWN WITH NPC CORPS.
Time to expose people to the universe. It brings validity to everyone's actions..


Eve Online, By George Orwell
All playstyles are valid, but some are more valid than others.

Also I'm pretty sure not every NPC corp has its origin in combat and would/should care if you're mining. I doubt Native Freshfood, for example, expect you to patrol in your battleships 24/7...

That said the people who mine in hisec are missing out, no question. But I can't help but read your post and think about how someone minding their own business makes u mad bro

I am pretty sure the lobotomizing monotony of hisec mining is punishment enough. I am all for unsafe Eve. But aren't there plebty of miners who are perfectly deccable in normal corps?

First come smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire.
Reicheck
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2012-08-31 17:41:53 UTC
02/10

Somebody has been reading Marx.
Label, demonize, marginalize, and destroy. You're 3/4 of the way there.
Nearly every one of your posts has some form of this in it.

Your hate mongering disgusts me.

OP we both pay the same subscription fee. It allows you and I to play how we see fit within the bounds that CCP has set for us. Non-consensual PvP.

I also have other restrictions to my game time. I am a casual player.
I would be doing a diservice to any corp I joined as I wouldn't be able to uphold their requirements. I also feel that I can spend my time better than being a meat shield the entire time I can actually get some time to play.

I don't afk anything except sitting in a station if I have to leave my computer for any reason.
I have never nor will I ever have anything to do with a bot.

NPC Corps..
Who are in these corps?
Null alts, pirate alts, scouts, cyno alts, industrialists, alts to play while hiding from your FC, traders, miners, and you even said haulers.
You are doing more than just forcing newbs to htfu. You are even forcing your peers into something for which they did not ask.

In the end, when you force people to do something, they tend to push back.

Quite often with their wallets.

At which time, you will probably be complaining how empty the game is and why are all the prices so high?

I give it a 02/10 because I was forced to reply.

No sig here.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#160 - 2012-08-31 18:01:33 UTC
Reicheck wrote:
02/10

Somebody has been reading Marx.
Label, demonize, marginalize, and destroy. You're 3/4 of the way there.
Nearly every one of your posts has some form of this in it.

Your hate mongering disgusts me.

OP we both pay the same subscription fee. It allows you and I to play how we see fit within the bounds that CCP has set for us. Non-consensual PvP.

I also have other restrictions to my game time. I am a casual player.
I would be doing a diservice to any corp I joined as I wouldn't be able to uphold their requirements. I also feel that I can spend my time better than being a meat shield the entire time I can actually get some time to play.

I don't afk anything except sitting in a station if I have to leave my computer for any reason.
I have never nor will I ever have anything to do with a bot.

NPC Corps..
Who are in these corps?
Null alts, pirate alts, scouts, cyno alts, industrialists, alts to play while hiding from your FC, traders, miners, and you even said haulers.
You are doing more than just forcing newbs to htfu. You are even forcing your peers into something for which they did not ask.

In the end, when you force people to do something, they tend to push back.

Quite often with their wallets.

At which time, you will probably be complaining how empty the game is and why are all the prices so high?

I give it a 02/10 because I was forced to reply.


Any here we have yet another dont change my game as millions will leave post. Again this is not targeted at the new players this is targeted at players that are using the NPC corp as a meat shield. If you are in an NPC corp mine deep inside of your your factions areas where the opposing factions would have a hard time reaching you with out getting blown up. Your safish but you still can be effected by other people.