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Dual Ancillary Shield Booster Everything

Author
Serena Serene
Heretic University
#81 - 2012-08-29 06:48:23 UTC
So .. let me try to recapitulate what I understood some people here are saying:

ASB is fine.
That's because who cares if you can't kill a ship fitted with it with three ships of similar ship classes/types within 5 minutes, during which at least one of the attacking ships would have died, if it wasn't only a test so the guns were turned off, further reducing incoming damage and extending the time of life for the ASB ship.
You can always bring more numbers.

Seriously? This here really sounds like "It's not op because you can kill it if you throw enough other ships at it".
So imagine a ship which is like.. 10 times as strong across the board as other ships of the same class. You still can kill it if you throw enough other ships at it.
Is this really a good argument for balancing?
Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

I'm the first to admit that I haven't flown ASB yet at all, and that I have not very much pvp experience so far, but that argumentation is just nuts, in my opinion.
Garreth Vlox
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#82 - 2012-08-29 19:29:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Garreth Vlox
Liang Nuren wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:
That may be true in high sec. But out here in Null-sec? Let's just say a few of the rules change.


You know, I went and checked out your KB history based on the "out here in null sec". It perfectly confirmed what I suspected: you aren't impressed with the ASB because you regularly fly in gangs big enough that no active tank can ever matter. And really, that's ok - but do try to restrict your commentary to parts of the game you have a clue about.

-Liang


LOL, if it wasn't for the fact that all I see on your killboard is repeated losses in lowsec in a T1 frig then I might actually take your opinion of me seriously...but as it stands I just can't.

Oh, and about that theory that a big ship with and ASB can beat anything?

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17357073

I'm pretty sure you just helped prove it can't.

And yes before you start talking about how you were using one too and that is the only way to counter an ASB.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17342217
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17324620
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17307473
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17283367
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17262945
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17243281
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17236813

I would say based on how many times you have died using the horribly "OP" mod that its not nearly as good as you keep saying, cause if it was you wouldn't have lost all the ships you have with it fitted.

And heres one of those double fit ASB's

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17357073

Didn't seem to help him much.

The ASB is not an instant WIN button its a tool, its better than a lot of the other tools and will get adjusted eventually. But its no where near as good as you think.

As far as "EVERYONE IS USING IT" goes:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17342211
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17342371
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17357278

Again, no they aren't

And I remember something about how awesome Myrms are with one

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17324721

So where is the ASB on his fit?

And heres a drake the PERFECT boat for this kind of mod

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17349708

I search in vain for an ASB on that fit.

YES, the mods needs adjusting I think we agree on that.

No, its not the god-like mod you make it out to be and No not everyone is using it.

Stop blowing things out of proportion and wait for CCP to figure out what they want to do with this mod.

The LULZ Boat.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#83 - 2012-08-29 20:14:17 UTC
Garreth Vlox wrote:

LOL, if it wasn't for the fact that all I see on your killboard is repeated losses in lowsec in a T1 frig and I might actually take your opinion of me seriously...but as it stands I just can't.


I'm not trying to talk **** or anything, but I've got more kills this week in T1 frigates than you've got in the last 2 months. So far this month I have more kills in T1 frigates than you've got this year. Furthermore, the majority of my kills are in actual small gangs where the ASB is coming to dominate, while the gangs that you fly in (when you bother to actually PVP at all) are of such a size that no active tank can ever matter. You just don't understand the kind of PVP that is being discussed here.

It's not all bad though. You *HAVE* actually PVPed this month!

Quote:

Oh, and about that theory that a big ship with and ASB can beat anything?

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17357073

I'm pretty sure you just helped prove it can't.
...
And heres one of those double fit ASB's

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17357073

Didn't seem to help him much.


First off, that's the same killmail twice. Moving on: You are looking at the killmail and saying "Ah, look - an ASB fit ship died". Yet you fail to take the context of that kill into account. For instance, you don't know whether I was ASB fit or not. As it turns out, I was not ASB fit and the fight went down exactly as I posited it must once everyone is fitting ASBs. All the way down to the fight taking 20 minutes and us running him out of cap boosters.

Quote:

And yes before you start talking about how you were using one too and that is the only way to counter an ASB.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17342217
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17324620
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17307473
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17283367
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17262945
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17243281
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17236813

I would say based on how many times you have died using the horribly "OP" mod that its not nearly as good as you keep saying, cause if it was you wouldn't have lost all the ships you have with it fitted.


So you cite 7 ASB fit losses where I was engaging ships that I had no legitimate reason to believe I could ever survive engaging. In return I cite 80 kills with a 97% efficiency fighting things that I have no legitimate reason to believe I could ever survive engaging. But the ASB is so powerful that it gives me sufficient confidence to take on suicidal situations... and overwhelmingly win. After all, you can never win big if you never risk anything.

Quote:

The ASB is not an instant WIN button its a tool, its better than a lot of the other tools and will get adjusted eventually. But its no where near as good as you think.

As far as "EVERYONE IS USING IT" goes:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17342211
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17342371
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17357278

And I remember something about how awesome Myrms are with one

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17324721

So where is the ASB on his fit?

And heres a drake the PERFECT boat for this kind of mod

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17349708

I search in vain for an ASB on that fit.


So you just searched out a bunch of killmails where ASB fit ships killed non-ASB fit ships. I'm not sure if you're trying to help get ASBs nerfed or not?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Garreth Vlox
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#84 - 2012-08-29 20:56:25 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:

LOL, if it wasn't for the fact that all I see on your killboard is repeated losses in lowsec in a T1 frig and I might actually take your opinion of me seriously...but as it stands I just can't.


I'm not trying to talk **** or anything, but I've got more kills this week in T1 frigates than you've got in the last 2 months. So far this month I have more kills in T1 frigates than you've got this year. Furthermore, the majority of my kills are in actual small gangs where the ASB is coming to dominate, while the gangs that you fly in (when you bother to actually PVP at all) are of such a size that no active tank can ever matter. You just don't understand the kind of PVP that is being discussed here.

It's not all bad though. You *HAVE* actually PVPed this month!

Quote:

Oh, and about that theory that a big ship with and ASB can beat anything?

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17357073

I'm pretty sure you just helped prove it can't.
...
And heres one of those double fit ASB's

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17357073

Didn't seem to help him much.


First off, that's the same killmail twice. Moving on: You are looking at the killmail and saying "Ah, look - an ASB fit ship died". Yet you fail to take the context of that kill into account. For instance, you don't know whether I was ASB fit or not. As it turns out, I was not ASB fit and the fight went down exactly as I posited it must once everyone is fitting ASBs. All the way down to the fight taking 20 minutes and us running him out of cap boosters.

Quote:

And yes before you start talking about how you were using one too and that is the only way to counter an ASB.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17342217
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17324620
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17307473
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17283367
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17262945
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17243281
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17236813

I would say based on how many times you have died using the horribly "OP" mod that its not nearly as good as you keep saying, cause if it was you wouldn't have lost all the ships you have with it fitted.


So you cite 7 ASB fit losses where I was engaging ships that I had no legitimate reason to believe I could ever survive engaging. In return I cite 80 kills with a 97% efficiency fighting things that I have no legitimate reason to believe I could ever survive engaging. But the ASB is so powerful that it gives me sufficient confidence to take on suicidal situations... and overwhelmingly win. After all, you can never win big if you never risk anything.

Quote:

The ASB is not an instant WIN button its a tool, its better than a lot of the other tools and will get adjusted eventually. But its no where near as good as you think.

As far as "EVERYONE IS USING IT" goes:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17342211
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17342371
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17357278

And I remember something about how awesome Myrms are with one

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17324721

So where is the ASB on his fit?

And heres a drake the PERFECT boat for this kind of mod

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17349708

I search in vain for an ASB on that fit.


So you just searched out a bunch of killmails where ASB fit ships killed non-ASB fit ships. I'm not sure if you're trying to help get ASBs nerfed or not?

-Liang


I have a job, i know, what a tool right? It just so happens my job is during my corp and alliance prime time so I get to pvp with them on my days off and the few times the go out when I'm online late at night.

Linking the killmail twice was kind of the point it was double repped AND it still died.

Also I have a very hard time believing you didn't fit an ASB on the ship you killed the cyclone with. Because you can see here you are seen flying a condor while killing that cyclone:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17357073

and here you are while piloting your trusty condor which you died in not 48 hours before:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17342217

100% proof? **** no, reasonable doubt? Yeah.

"that I had no legitimate reason to believe I could ever survive engaging. " per your previous statements about these devices you think using one = winning so why did you expect to lose?


"So you just searched out a bunch of killmails where ASB fit ships killed non-ASB fit ships. I'm not sure if you're trying to help get ASBs nerfed or not?" As I stated you claim EVERYONE is using one... obviously that is not accurate, I'm not trying to get them nerfed I'm pointing out your wrong.

"But the ASB is so powerful that it gives me sufficient confidence to take on suicidal situations" I can do that in a T1 frig too and I hate to break it to you it doesn't take an ASB to get point/scram just balls.

"All the way down to the fight taking 20 minutes and us running him out of cap boosters." No **** Sherlock you are fighting an ACTIVE TANK BATTLECRUISER with T1 FRIGATES it should take you 20 minutes to win, your throwing GOLF BALLS at a TIGER TANK its gonna take a while.

The LULZ Boat.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#85 - 2012-08-29 22:11:51 UTC
Garreth Vlox wrote:

I have a job, i know, what a tool right? It just so happens my job is during my corp and alliance prime time so I get to pvp with them on my days off and the few times the go out when I'm online late at night.


Funny, I have a job too. I work from 7am to 7pm most days and don't log on until 9:30-10:30pm my time. :)

Quote:

Also I have a very hard time believing you didn't fit an ASB on the ship you killed the cyclone with. Because you can see here you are seen flying a condor while killing that cyclone:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17357073

and here you are while piloting your trusty condor which you died in not 48 hours before:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17342217

100% proof? **** no, reasonable doubt? Yeah.


In particular, that ASB Condor is rocket fit and the Cyclone in question was killed with light missiles. But hey, if I was ASB fit then it'd even more illustrate how powerful ASBs are. I'm just throwing you a bone here by admitting I wasn't ASB fit when I killed it. :)

Quote:

"that I had no legitimate reason to believe I could ever survive engaging. " per your previous statements about these devices you think using one = winning so why did you expect to lose?
...
"But the ASB is so powerful that it gives me sufficient confidence to take on suicidal situations" I can do that in a T1 frig too and I hate to break it to you it doesn't take an ASB to get point/scram just balls.


Prior to ASBs I would have no legitimate reason to believe that a T1 attack frigate (paper thin, sub interceptor survivability) could survive while face tanking a Thrasher at 5km. I would literally have no reason to believe I'd survive that fight, let alone solo kill the Thrasher.

Yet I did. So please continue to tell me how a T1 frigate with no buffer and one tank mod has always been able to face tank a Thrasher.

Quote:

"So you just searched out a bunch of killmails where ASB fit ships killed non-ASB fit ships. I'm not sure if you're trying to help get ASBs nerfed or not?" As I stated you claim EVERYONE is using one... obviously that is not accurate, I'm not trying to get them nerfed I'm pointing out your wrong.


And yet you were immediately able to dive into my kill history and see the huge numbers of people who are ASB fit. You were further able to dive into my kill history and see that I am in fact ASB fitting large numbers of ships... and getting ridiculous kills with them.

Interesting.

Quote:

Linking the killmail twice was kind of the point it was double repped AND it still died.
...
"All the way down to the fight taking 20 minutes and us running him out of cap boosters." No **** Sherlock you are fighting an ACTIVE TANK BATTLECRUISER with T1 FRIGATES it should take you 20 minutes to win, your throwing GOLF BALLS at a TIGER TANK its gonna take a while.


So what you're saying is that my analysis for The Correct Way to kill a dual/oversized ASB fit ships is correct: bring more people or DPS them for all eternity in hopes that they run out of cap charges eventually. Why do you seem to have so much trouble understanding that ASB ships will die? They will. Especially when two ASB fit ships engage each other.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Garreth Vlox
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#86 - 2012-08-29 22:57:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Garreth Vlox
Funny, I have a job too. I work from 7am to 7pm most days and don't log on until 9:30-10:30pm my time. :)


In particular, that ASB Condor is rocket fit and the Cyclone in question was killed with light missiles. But hey, if I was ASB fit then it'd even more illustrate how powerful ASBs are. I'm just throwing you a bone here by admitting I wasn't ASB fit when I killed it. :)


Prior to ASBs I would have no legitimate reason to believe that a T1 attack frigate (paper thin, sub interceptor survivability) could survive while face tanking a Thrasher at 5km. I would literally have no reason to believe I'd survive that fight, let alone solo kill the Thrasher.

Yet I did. So please continue to tell me how a T1 frigate with no buffer and one tank mod has always been able to face tank a Thrasher.

And yet you were immediately able to dive into my kill history and see the huge numbers of people who are ASB fit. You were further able to dive into my kill history and see that I am in fact ASB fitting large numbers of ships... and getting ridiculous kills with them.

Interesting.


So what you're saying is that my analysis for The Correct Way to kill a dual/oversized ASB fit ships is correct: bring more people or DPS them for all eternity in hopes that they run out of cap charges eventually. Why do you seem to have so much trouble understanding that ASB ships will die? They will. Especially when two ASB fit ships engage each other.

-Liang

________________________________________________________________________________________________
Too many quotes had to clean this mess up a bit.

"Prior to ASBs I would have no legitimate reason to believe that a T1 attack frigate (paper thin, sub interceptor survivability) could survive while face tanking a Thrasher at 5km." <-- T1 frigs have been able to hold their own against dessy's since the frigs got rebalanced so yeah... No.

"And yet you were immediately able to dive into my kill history and see the huge numbers of people who are ASB fit."

Aside from your own personal and alliance loss mails I found only a few other ASB's and I linked those. So YOU may put them on everything, the same can not be said about the rest of the EVE population.

"and getting ridiculous kills with them." out numbering almost every single "lowsec" opponent 4 or more to 1 helps. Also you die in a lot of those "kills" so they aren't really "your" kills so much as they are a collective effort that you helped along until dieing using the mod you say makes it almost impossible to kill anyone using it.... Yeah that makes sense. /sarcasm.

"bring more people or DPS them for all eternity in hopes that they run out of cap charges eventually." 4 T1 frigs fit with small guns and missiles/rockets is about the farthest you can get from "DPS"

"Why do you seem to have so much trouble understanding that ASB ships will die? " How many times have I told YOU they die? I don't know I've lost count but now your repeating what I say AND what you've already said and that's just getting old.

"So please continue to tell me how a T1 frigate with no buffer and one tank mod has always been able to face tank a Thrasher." Always? nope. Since the patch fixing frigs? yep.

"f I was ASB fit then it'd even more illustrate how powerful ASBs are" no it wouldn't because you would still be dead and the point of using that mod is to avoid death.

The LULZ Boat.

Klown Walk
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
#87 - 2012-08-29 23:57:01 UTC
Just a note on the dual large asb cyclone, with heat and running both boosters it almost tanks 800 dps. You had 2 blaster ships that use therm + kinetic and you used light kinetic missiles, so each booster can now tank 500 dps, that's probably enough to tank your 4 ships. The cyclone would not be able to tank you with one booster using someting like 4 rifters.

You just had the wrong ships + ammo, it should be hard to kill a bonused active tanked bc with 4 t1 frigates especially when two of them is fit for long range missiles.
Garreth Vlox
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#88 - 2012-08-30 00:00:10 UTC
Klown Walk wrote:
Just a note on the dual large asb cyclone, with heat and running both boosters it almost tanks 800 dps. You had 2 blaster ships that use therm + kinetic and you used light kinetic missiles, so each booster can now tank 500 dps, that's probably enough to tank your 4 ships. The cyclone would not be able to tank you with one booster using someting like 4 rifters.

You just had the wrong ships + ammo, it should be hard to kill a bonused active tanked bc with 4 t1 frigates especially when two of them is fit for long range missiles.


Thank you.

The LULZ Boat.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#89 - 2012-08-30 05:20:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Klown Walk wrote:
Just a note on the dual large asb cyclone, with heat and running both boosters it almost tanks 800 dps. You had 2 blaster ships that use therm + kinetic and you used light kinetic missiles, so each booster can now tank 500 dps, that's probably enough to tank your 4 ships. The cyclone would not be able to tank you with one booster using someting like 4 rifters.

You just had the wrong ships + ammo, it should be hard to kill a bonused active tanked bc with 4 t1 frigates especially when two of them is fit for long range missiles.


I would like to quibble about your math a bit. While obviously your math is good in the mundane case, the mundane case is never the case that gets used and abused. Consider that the Nano nerf didn't happen because people were flying around at 5km/s in Crows, but instead because people were flying around at 35km/s in crows.

With that in mind, it becomes obvious that a dual large ASB Cyclone can be made to tank somewhere between 1600-2300 DPS per booster. To put that in perspective, a dual large ASB Cyclone can tank 2.5-3 BCs per booster. Furthermore, it can do this while being completely immune to neutralization. There is no counter available to small gangs except bringing more people and taking more time. That's why ASBs are being fit to everything from famously armor tanked ships (Myrmidons) to famously shield tanked ships (Cyclones).

With regards to that specific fight, I believe it's worth mentioning that I never brought it up as an example of how ASBs are OP or not and I wouldn't really consider a fight between two ASB ships to be an interesting example of balance. Furthermore, I certainly wouldn't complain that a ship was tanking well when we were deliberately flying around in kite tanked T1 frigs. Some back of the napkin math tells me that if the Cyclone had been set up to maximum effect, the fight could have gone on for a long, long, long time. Totally neglecting shield and cap recharge I'd have expected 24,000+ seconds (about 7 hours) before running dry of cap boosters.

And finally, I'd say I made a pretty clear argument earlier in the thread why what we did (DPS with kiting ships) was the proper response when facing an ASB ship. You can make the argument that doing it in frigates was suboptimal and I'd agree. That doesn't mean that the tactic itself is any less viable. That we eventually did win is really a testament to the fact that ASB ships can be killed.

But then, I've never claimed that they couldn't. Just that they are powerful enough to provide an overpowered competitive advantage against ships that are not ASB fit.

-Liang

Ed: Do try not to read so much into his straw man arguments. :)

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#90 - 2012-08-30 05:35:07 UTC
Garreth Vlox wrote:
...


I'm sorry, did you just claim that T1 attack frigates are by and large able to sit 3-5km from a Thrasher and DPS down since the patch that boosted them? That's... special.

Also, I'm really tired of the incoherent ranting, straw man arguments, and personal attacks. I decided not to respond to most of those. It's why my post is so short.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Jude Lloyd
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2012-08-30 06:24:15 UTC
Garreth Vlox wrote:
I need a life.



Yes, yes you do. Go PVP and stop writing novels...

I'm back!

Jori McKie
Know your Role
Fraternity.
#92 - 2012-08-30 08:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
[quote=Shanija]

People who use them on Hurricanes, Ruptures, etc. fit their ships poorly and die as a result.


Sorry but you have no clue. The x-large ASB Cane is a perfect Drake killer, if you know what you do. Before the ASB you had a very slim chance in a passive shield Cane to kill a Drake if the Drake pilot wasn't a complete idiot. Now it's reversed, the Drake will die in most cases.
You have 2 options with x-large ASB Canes, in your face style put a scram on it, your DPS and tank will kill any standard point, web kiting Drake. Only problem is to get into scram range once but now you have at least the chance to do that as your speed is (usually) superior to the Drake in contrast to the old armor scram, dual web Cane.
The other option is a simple long range point and "hop" over the Drakes web with your MWD to get into close range. The ASB allows you to tank the Drake long enough to get often enough into range for 4 to 5 dual neut cylces after that it's just cleanup. (That is nearly impossible with a passive shield Cane as the Drake will out tank and kill you) Podla Drakes with dual webs are a bit more difficult.

T2 ships are benefiting the most from a x-large ASB, take a Rapier for example. It's not designed for that but an ASB works wonders on it. Single x-large ASB is very strong in small scale fights with low alpha, not easy to deal with but possible. Dual x-large ASB in small scale is way overpowered as your old weapon to kill active tanking ships isn't working anymore. To deal with dual x-large ASB you need DPS and alpha in a very disproportional way like at least 5k better 8k DPS for one dual ASB Maelstrom

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
#93 - 2012-08-30 08:09:44 UTC
i remember back when it was 1600mm plate everything.
Anja Talis
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal
#94 - 2012-08-30 19:49:41 UTC
AAAGH! I'm a spaceship forum-warrior and I must be right in every PVP thread so I'll trawl your killboard history and quote your loss mails without any context of what actually was happening at that point in time. All to prop up my poorly thought out opinion, which was roflstomped three replies back.
Garreth Vlox
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#95 - 2012-09-01 19:20:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Garreth Vlox
Liang Nuren wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:
...


I'm sorry, did you just claim that T1 attack frigates are by and large able to sit 3-5km from a Thrasher and DPS down since the patch that boosted them? That's... special.

Also, I'm really tired of the incoherent ranting, straw man arguments, and personal attacks. I decided not to respond to most of those. It's why my post is so short.

-Liang


If you-re 3-5 k from a thrrasher to tackle it, you're tackling like a 4 year old, a point reaches 24 km and your frigate should be faster then the thrasher so if you are sitting at 3-5 km, again you are doing it wrong.

And on the damage the other guy is right, attacking minny ships which have Therm and Kinetic leaning tanks means he can tank you far easier then he should be able to, so again, you're doing it wrong.

This thread is one of the few on this entire forum where people are actually discussing the fact that you are simply misinformed, the personal attacks didn't start until you responded to logic by repeating your core statements with different words that mean the same thing, which in this game is just flat out begging people to start trolling.

The LULZ Boat.

Garreth Vlox
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#96 - 2012-09-01 19:25:39 UTC
Anja Talis wrote:
AAAGH! I'm a spaceship forum-warrior and I must be right in every PVP thread so I'll trawl your killboard history and quote your loss mails without any context of what actually was happening at that point in time. All to prop up my poorly thought out opinion, which was roflstomped three replies back.



Ahhhh, that's cute, look at that guy who has no idea what is being talked about due to it being over his head feeling left out and trolling to make himself feel better. COAD is that way-------------->

The LULZ Boat.

Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#97 - 2012-09-01 19:29:44 UTC
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
Something tells me that this thread is actually a subtle plea to have ASBs nerfed.


Nawwwww, ya think?!
Garreth Vlox
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#98 - 2012-09-01 19:34:03 UTC
Jude Lloyd wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:
I need a life.



Yes, yes you do. Go PVP and stop writing novels...



So, quick question, how many more of your friends/alts are you gonna bat phone for forum, back up? If you're right how come you need some many corpies to try and shout down my posts? signs of desperation are becoming more evident the more you post dudes.

The LULZ Boat.

Garreth Vlox
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#99 - 2012-09-01 19:46:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Garreth Vlox
Liang Nuren wrote:
Klown Walk wrote:
Just a note on the dual large asb cyclone, with heat and running both boosters it almost tanks 800 dps. You had 2 blaster ships that use therm + kinetic and you used light kinetic missiles, so each booster can now tank 500 dps, that's probably enough to tank your 4 ships. The cyclone would not be able to tank you with one booster using someting like 4 rifters.

You just had the wrong ships + ammo, it should be hard to kill a bonused active tanked bc with 4 t1 frigates especially when two of them is fit for long range missiles.


I would like to quibble about your math a bit. While obviously your math is good in the mundane case, the mundane case is never the case that gets used and abused. Consider that the Nano nerf didn't happen because people were flying around at 5km/s in Crows, but instead because people were flying around at 35km/s in crows.

With that in mind, it becomes obvious that a dual large ASB Cyclone can be made to tank somewhere between 1600-2300 DPS per booster. To put that in perspective, a dual large ASB Cyclone can tank 2.5-3 BCs per booster. Furthermore, it can do this while being completely immune to neutralization. There is no counter available to small gangs except bringing more people and taking more time. That's why ASBs are being fit to everything from famously armor tanked ships (Myrmidons) to famously shield tanked ships (Cyclones).

With regards to that specific fight, I believe it's worth mentioning that I never brought it up as an example of how ASBs are OP or not and I wouldn't really consider a fight between two ASB ships to be an interesting example of balance. Furthermore, I certainly wouldn't complain that a ship was tanking well when we were deliberately flying around in kite tanked T1 frigs. Some back of the napkin math tells me that if the Cyclone had been set up to maximum effect, the fight could have gone on for a long, long, long time. Totally neglecting shield and cap recharge I'd have expected 24,000+ seconds (about 7 hours) before running dry of cap boosters.

And finally, I'd say I made a pretty clear argument earlier in the thread why what we did (DPS with kiting ships) was the proper response when facing an ASB ship. You can make the argument that doing it in frigates was suboptimal and I'd agree.That doesn't mean that the tactic itself is any less viable. That we eventually did win is really a testament to the fact that ASB ships can be killed.

But then, I've never claimed that they couldn't. Just that they are powerful enough to provide an overpowered competitive advantage against ships that are not ASB fit.

-Liang

Ed: Do try not to read so much into his straw man arguments. :)


Not for nothing, but even with an EM resist rig the EM hole on a minny ship is big enough to drive a truck through yet there your incorrect ammo using frigs sit throwing therm and kinetic damage at a ship designed to tank Kinetic and tanked heavily against thermal. Again the golf ball tank comparison come to mind.

And a note about the underlined bits, do you even own a dictionary or now how to use the one on google??????

saying something is suboptimal yet STILL viable is just... well not real intelligent? your admitting your tactics choice puts you at a disadvantage and then you cry about being at a disadvantage. That's like complaining you don't get paid enough at work and then turning down an offered raise.

The LULZ Boat.

M1k3y Koontz
THE AESIR.
Hostile Probes
#100 - 2012-09-01 20:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Jori McKie wrote:


T2 ships are benefiting the most from a x-large ASB


Jori McKie wrote:


Exception of Cyclone and Maelstrom mostly true.

take a Rapier for example.



I literally laughed when you said Rapiers are good ASB ships.
ASB Rapier boosts back all of its shields with one cycle of the ASB and gets volley'd far too easily to be of use. Rapiers, as well as the cookie cutter cane, are still buffer fits because they are better that way.
While the XL ASB Cane might be useful against solo drakes (wait, there's solo drakes w/o cynos?) they are not nearly as effective in small gang where 3 hurricanes will easily break it.

ASBs remain useful on tank bonused ships like Maelstroms and Cyclones (Found a 1.5b triple ASB Rattler once), etc and on small fast ships like frigate hulls, T1 and T2. However, they are not the be all end all of the most popular PVP ships (Canes Drakes and 1400mm Tonados).

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.