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CCP doesn't keep error logs from server? The logs show nothing.

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James 315
Experimental Fun Times Corp RELOADED
CODE.
#141 - 2012-08-21 23:00:52 UTC
It's true that there are a lot of situations where you're unlikely to be reimbursed for losses due to logs not showing everything. But honestly, you should have seen the way it was years ago. The servers are much improved since then. Cool

MinerBumping.com
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#142 - 2012-08-21 23:04:38 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Freezehunter wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
The meme "the logs show nothing" is incredibly incorrect.

That's pretty much exactly the response I got from two GMs on a petitioned loss a while back. It was something like "We see that you had no recorded actions in 40 seconds of combat, but the logs don't show any errors so we're not going to do anything about it." It was a most dissatisfying and disheartening response.


Exactly my point.

Sometimes the interface just STOPS ACCEPTING YOUR ACTIONS, you can type to people, you see their messages, you are not timed out, you are not lagging, you see everything around you working perfectly and the chats moving and people talking, but the interface just stops ******* accepting your ship commands.

Do they actually think that you just suddenly stopped doing anything in combat and waited to die ON PURPOSE? Are they ******* serious?

What does CCP explain that with, wet graving?


This is exactly the type of case I was talking about. All we see is that no commands from your client reach the server. We have no idea if the client stopped responding or you walked away from your PC. This is happening on your PC, not our server, and thus we have no idea what is going on. Our logs are not a crystal ball that allow us to see stuff that doesn't happen on our server.

I am now going to paste a reply I personally use to explain some matters here.

"Our reimbursement policies only cover server side issues. Neither connectivity issues, nor client issues are covered. While we understand that this is frustrating, we have these policies in place in order to ensure equal treatment of all our customers. Since this is a competitive game we can only take action when we can verify the cause of a loss. Since we simply do not have that kind of access to your PC we are unable to verify any client side issues, including bugs within the EVE client itself, connection issues, driver issues, hardware failures, etc.

The competitive nature of EVE, which is unique among MMO's, simply requires us to treat everyone equally. This means that when we reimburse one case without verification, we have to do so for all cases. This would open the door to abuse of our reimbursement policies, effectively making any game play consequences null and void."

We ALWAYS look for reasons to reimburse (it is the first thing we teach every new GM once we start training them in reimbursement 'always look for a reason to reimburse, any reason'), but we must do so fairly and make sure we treat everyone equally. One of the most common accusations we hear on a daily basis is "You are just lazy, you do not want to do the work and you are just brushing me off". Trust me when I say this; The easy way out is to reimburse. If we were lazy we would be reimbursing everything. Telling someone we cannot reimburse isn't easy, nor is it fun or enjoyable. It is hard to say no. It is hard to try and explain the reasons behind it while it only ends in an endless argument. It is hard try and explain incredibly complex factors that lead to certain events. It is hard to genuinely try to help and please people when you have very little room to do so and there is only a small chance that the effort will be recognized as such.

HOWEVER, in the end EVE is not the average MMO. It is extremely competitive. This means the customer is not king; the community is. This means we are not here to please people no matter what; we are here to make sure everyone is treated equally and fairly, and to make sure that all our customers are inconvenienced as little as possible in a cut throat environment. Equal treatment is more important then anything else we do. Unfortunately this means that in almost all cases where things are not completely clear we have to stay hands off.

We understand your frustration; we truly do. Most GMs have been or are very active players. All of us have felt the crack of the EVE whip any times over. All of our GMs deal with people's plights on a daily basis and, no matter who you are, that breeds a deep understanding of the frustrations people go through. We sympathize with you, we rage at the unfairness of some of these situation just like you and we get frustrated when things go wrong, just like you.


In short - EVE has very, very crappy code/design and we've discovered we can't/won't do anything about it so suck it up and keep sending us money anyway.
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#143 - 2012-08-21 23:05:13 UTC  |  Edited by: SpotlessBlade
Garreth Vlox wrote:
To CCP a "large scale player engagement" is defined by something breaking, if something breaks it was a large player engagement and not their fault. Welcome to "the logs show nothing".. i mean welcome to EVE online. The only game in existence with error messages directing you to contact a GM so they can tell you to **** off because they don't record instances of errors like that.


I almost spit coffee everywhere from laughing.

Don't forget that in EVE online, GMs will tell you that the error you received while playing their game is reimbursable grounds, but theyre very sorry, They can't reimburse you. Why, you ask? Because you were playing the game when the error ocurred. lmao
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2012-08-22 14:47:18 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
The rationale given for not reimbursing losses during "large scale player engagements" is kind of ridiculous, imo. Reimbursing a lost ship doesn't change the outcome of a battle - the battle already happened and was won or lost. It doesn't revert the killmail. All it does is reimburse the owner of the ship for a loss that should not have happened were game mechanics working properly.

Let's say you have a soccer game between two rival clubs, and all of a sudden when one team is about to score a screaming man runs onto the field and tackles the goalie so he cannot make the save. The refs aren't going to scratch their heads and say "hmmm, well it's competitive so we can't intervene and reimburse that point". They would reimburse the point and start the clock again. It's the proper thing to do when something happens outside of game parameters and player/officiator (in this case, the GM) control.

It's a rough analogy, but I hope you understand my meaning.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Boxless
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#145 - 2012-08-22 15:53:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Boxless
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
The rationale given for not reimbursing losses during "large scale player engagements" is kind of ridiculous, imo. Reimbursing a lost ship doesn't change the outcome of a battle - the battle already happened and was won or lost. It doesn't revert the killmail. All it does is reimburse the owner of the ship for a loss that should not have happened were game mechanics working properly.


Do you play this game? I mean seriously. Sometime the "goal" of the battle is little more than to destroy assets of the other person.

If some ships on one side are reimbursed and the ships on the other side aren't it's bias. Only unbiased way to do is reimburse everyone's ships 100% of the time or review the logs of every single ship in an engagement(good luck).

Simply No.

Your soccer analogy hold's no merit as CCP does not referee the fights during.

 FREE Iamien !!!!!
Pasta OfDoom
Doomheim
#146 - 2012-08-22 16:37:53 UTC
1: Complain about a legitimate problem on both the side of the players and CCP.
2: Get trolled.
3: Attract the attention of CCP.
4: Troll to the point of pissing off CCP where anything constructive that could have been done in the thread in the first place is now impossible.
5: ???
6: Profit...?
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#147 - 2012-08-22 23:23:58 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
Doc Severide wrote:
At this point the OP is not likely to accept any explanation, he just wants to moan and complain...



Get caught up duck face, you're like 3 pages behind.

You're clearly a whiner. Go change your diaper already the **** is spilling over...
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#148 - 2012-08-22 23:40:14 UTC
Freezehunter wrote:
I have lost MANY ships/pods due to the...
fact you can't fly....
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#149 - 2012-08-26 22:28:29 UTC
Still waiting CCP.
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#150 - 2012-08-27 00:28:53 UTC
Boxless wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
The rationale given for not reimbursing losses during "large scale player engagements" is kind of ridiculous, imo. Reimbursing a lost ship doesn't change the outcome of a battle - the battle already happened and was won or lost. It doesn't revert the killmail. All it does is reimburse the owner of the ship for a loss that should not have happened were game mechanics working properly.


Do you play this game? I mean seriously. Sometime the "goal" of the battle is little more than to destroy assets of the other person.

If some ships on one side are reimbursed and the ships on the other side aren't it's bias. Only unbiased way to do is reimburse everyone's ships 100% of the time or review the logs of every single ship in an engagement(good luck).

Simply No.

Your soccer analogy hold's no merit as CCP does not referee the fights during.


No CCP does not directly interfere or "reff" but their failures which result in the game breaking cause ship losses and that does interfere so kindly go back to fountain and scam someone else. And according to your own alliance "ship losses mean nothing we are fighting for sov" so take your "its all about ships exploding" line and shove that back where you found it too. Do I think ships should be reimbursed in a large fleet fight? Hell no how do they know the pilot wasn't just stupid and not paying attention? Should they be for smaller fights where its 10 on 10 or some other small gang vs. gang fight? Yes, a single person freezing and getting killed as a result of (lag/the devil/DC/bad crazy on the internet) then you should reimburse, the killer got his kill mail and that's what he wanted the pilot who got screwed gets his ship back which is what he wants and both groups continue on their roaming ways.

The LULZ Boat.
Methesda
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#151 - 2012-08-27 02:01:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Methesda
SpotlessBlade wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:

This is exactly the type of case I was talking about. All we see is that no commands from your client reach the server. We have no idea if the client stopped responding or you walked away from your PC. This is happening on your PC, not our server, and thus we have no idea what is going on. Our logs are not a crystal ball that allow us to see stuff that doesn't happen on our server.



GM homonoia, remember what I said about speaking to customers like they don't know anything? You're doing it again.


WHAT?!? HOW??? HOW IS SHE TALKING DOWN TO YOU?

Blade, I get that you are frustrated, but Homonia has been nothing but forthwright; she just hasn't given you an answer you like.

Tell me how, in the above passage that you quoted, the GM is talking down to you.

Eve is about the journey.  If you are so focused on making money, that you insist on having the tools to make it be made as autonomous and easy as possible, then you are never going to have as much fun as I will.
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#152 - 2012-08-27 02:51:50 UTC
Methesda wrote:


WHAT?!? HOW??? HOW IS SHE TALKING DOWN TO YOU?

Blade, I get that you are frustrated, but Homonia has been nothing but forthwright; she just hasn't given you an answer you like.

Tell me how, in the above passage that you quoted, the GM is talking down to you.


The entire quote, not just that snippet reeks of smug to me. The majority of eve players i'd imagine are somewhat tech knowledgable. The answer that frustrates me, and many others in similar situations, is that they apparently have zero concern that their game faulted and have no desire to look at it seriously and thoroughly. A

The facts once again are very simple. There was a server side error message. My client did not freeze or disconnect. These messages are not generated by bad piloting, afking, or isp issues. They are only generated by server sided problems, which GM homonoia admitted herself, it is reimburseable, but not reimburisng a reimburseable error because it happened while playing the game as intended, is frankly crap.
Dasola
New Edens Freeports
#153 - 2012-08-27 03:17:30 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
The logs show us a lot of things. Without looking into this myself (in other words, I don't know what was said exactly, I am going solely on what is being said in this thread) you were likely denied reimbursement because of section 1.5 of our reimbursement policies:

"Any losses of any kind resulting from a large-scale player engagement are not covered by this reimbursement policy."

The meme "the logs show nothing" is incredibly incorrect. Our logs show us a lot of information; almost everything that happens on our server. However, the meme came into being due to bad communication on our part in the olden days. We have to deny many reimbursement requests due to issues outside our server (connection issues, ISP issues, a hop/node falling over somewhere on the internet, a user's PC crashing or losing connection, a client error or bug, etc). These things are, obviously, not logged on our server because they don't happen on our server. Unfortunately we do not have unlimited access to every device connected to the internet (if we had I think many government agencies would be interested on how we would be doing that) and thus we have no way to verify what happens on any machine outside our own. That is the use case where you will receive a "nothing was wrong on our server, it must be caused by something outside our server, but we have no way of knowing what that is; sorry, but we cannot reimburse for that" reply.

Tl;dr

- Our logs show almost everything (though gaps do exist; they are not perfect)
- We cannot log what is happening outside our servers and thus cannot verify non-server side issues
- We only reimburse for server side issues (because EVE is a competitive game and this is the only way we can ensure everyone is treated equally)


Im suprised that client errors and bugs are reasons to deny reimbursement. You fellow better then kick some butt in QA department so we get bug/error free client then. Usual consumer protection laws in many country product errors/bugs as one could say are fault of manufacturer. I have always wondered why eve releases are so buggy time to time, this sure explains alot... Quality of codeing is not something that just happens, there has to be process for it.

It should not be too difficult to have some automatic process on client side to send short log and info about critical error report. Expecially in case where client instructs player to file petition.

We are Minmatar, Our ship are made of scraps, but look what our scraps can do...
Nylith Empyreal
Sutar Rein
#154 - 2012-08-27 05:04:23 UTC
Wow I love this thread, so what's a large fleet exactly? I find more than 5 people to be pretty large myself, but hey I don't define anything.

Who's the more foolish the fool or the fool who replies to him?
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#155 - 2012-08-28 06:26:34 UTC
still waiting.....
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#156 - 2012-08-29 09:31:50 UTC
still waiting....
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#157 - 2012-08-29 10:08:08 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
Methesda wrote:


WHAT?!? HOW??? HOW IS SHE TALKING DOWN TO YOU?

Blade, I get that you are frustrated, but Homonia has been nothing but forthwright; she just hasn't given you an answer you like.

Tell me how, in the above passage that you quoted, the GM is talking down to you.


The entire quote, not just that snippet reeks of smug to me. The majority of eve players i'd imagine are somewhat tech knowledgable. The answer that frustrates me, and many others in similar situations, is that they apparently have zero concern that their game faulted and have no desire to look at it seriously and thoroughly. A

The facts once again are very simple. There was a server side error message. My client did not freeze or disconnect. These messages are not generated by bad piloting, afking, or isp issues. They are only generated by server sided problems, which GM homonoia admitted herself, it is reimburseable, but not reimburisng a reimburseable error because it happened while playing the game as intended, is frankly crap.


GM's in most games have almost no knowledge of the game itself & aren't all that helpful in most cases. This is most evident when you're given blatently wrong information while they try to pass it off as fact. In most cases, they will say anything they need to say to avoid actually having to do any work. It's almost like calling your ISP's tech support about not being connected to the internet & they ask if your computer is switched on.... No, actually it's exactly the same.

Hilmar once said at Fanfest, "We love it when the players call us out & say Bullshit". I'm calling Bullshit.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Serena Serene
Heretic University
#158 - 2012-08-29 10:30:25 UTC
I sometimes do support (in a slightly different field) and, honestly:

If you don't -know- how good your customer's knowledge about the things at hand is, you have to explain in more detail. I consider that really common sense. It doesn't hurt to explain things the other person already knows, but a lot of people are hesitant to admit when they don't know something.

If you don't explain well enough you either force them to admit they don't get something, which leaves them with a bad feeling, or worse, they just don't follow up on that and stay with possibly wrong assertions and a "those guys with their tech-talk, who's going to understand that crap?"-thoughts.

If someone explains things you already know that does in no way mean they think you're stupid. It just means they don't know what you know and try to be helpful..
Especially on a forum, where you are not the only person reading it, but others as well, so the probability people without some tech background read, too, is a lot higher still.
Doddy
Excidium.
#159 - 2012-08-29 11:32:49 UTC
The ops indignation over the "no reimbursement from fleet fights policy" is pretty ironic considering his alliance. Maybe you should go ask DICE why CCP had to implement it
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#160 - 2012-09-06 22:39:38 UTC
Doddy wrote:
The ops indignation over the "no reimbursement from fleet fights policy" is pretty ironic considering his alliance. Maybe you should go ask DICE why CCP had to implement it


As if that has or should have absolutely any bearing on the issue at hand.