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Why are people so butt hurt about ECM
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Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#21 - 2012-08-26 12:28:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:
Its because when I've locked and pointed something no other ECM can get that point off till I'm dead.

ECM can, and it can do it to 4 others if the ecm is from a falcon. It also now has me ****** because I'm pointed and now unable to control range because my web stops functioning.

In small gang ECM shuts everything down, other forms of EW do not. Sensor damps could do it but its hard to get a lock range down to within inside point range.



Arazu/Lachesis without specific boosted sensor can't target "Tha Falcon" before the Falcon targets the Arazu/Lachesis -if one can take several ships out of the equation, the other should be able to target at least at the same speed, instead of a stupid 200km targeting range without sensor mods (Lachesis) when Damps at this range have no effect

The only viable reason why you actually use these ships being long point, and as you mentioned, a competent Falcon pilot will simply jam without a single problem the long point (106km for Lachesis all 5, faction point, claymore boosting) along with 3 other ships without much of a problem.

However if I can agree ECM is a little bit too OP it's exactly because there's no actual effective EWAR counter to ECM, Gallente Damps could/should be the one but to make this happen a lot of changes are needed to gallente Ewar and dedicated ships.

EDIT: ECCM is a little bit like RAH, they're not useless but let some pvp virtuous come here explain us everyone should fit at least one

brb
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-08-26 12:44:42 UTC
ECM has no stacking penalties in fact, it gets significantly strong with more 'dice rolls' ALL OTHER EW gets weaker, despite not being able to do enough with one module anyway.

TDs arnt as broken as damps, because 50% less range or tracking, hurts way more than 50% less target range or scan res, its not the 20 second warp out to die slowly that a jam cycle is.

This is why ecm drones are so good, 5 damp drones stacking penalized do up to one modules worth (the large ones), where as ecm drones get 5 rolls of that dice every 20 seconds and only one needs a jam at any given time.

Im surprised in a game this complicated, where your knowledge is rewarded, the game designers allow everything to hand on a dice. And they have let this happen for far too long.

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Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-08-26 13:09:12 UTC
TheBreadMuncher wrote:
Because the only way to counter ECM is to fit to counter ECM. This completely gimps your fit



Is it gimped as bad when your jammed and unable to do anything? Oh right it isn't. So you want protection from a contingency, but you don't want to have to sacrifice for that protection. Which is bullshit. You want to fly without "gimping your fit", then you have to pay the price. You can choose to have your high DPS, or you can choose to be prepared for a contingency. CCP says you don't get both. Deal with it.

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!
Cede Forster
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-08-26 13:21:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Cede Forster
ah nvm this, caldari ecm is great, in return they got missiles, get over it
Captain Robby
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-08-26 13:31:09 UTC
you say adding a ECCM to your ship gimps your ship but look at it in another sence he locks you and sits there mindlessly trying to jam you and fails you then have gimped his ship just to lower your mid slot by one? witch in turn his ship job/role is removed and hes a easy target for you.
Gun Gal
Dark Club
#26 - 2012-08-26 13:37:39 UTC
Dear failures,rejects, and and wow refugees.
learn to play
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#27 - 2012-08-26 13:38:49 UTC
1st up: DEATH TO FALCONS

On a more serious note: If they give ECM a stacking penalty or make it so only one ECM module can be activated on a ship by any one pilot then ECM wont be the small gang/solo killer.

Or, someone said something like this earlier and I thought it was a good idea, make the ECCM module a 100% garuntee you can't be jammed. ECM fixed.

Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
FoF


Turrets

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2012-08-26 13:47:29 UTC
Aren't autotargeting missiles those things that shoot rocks in preference to the primary?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2012-08-26 14:14:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Halcyon Ingenium wrote:
Is it gimped as bad when your jammed and unable to do anything? Oh right it isn't. So you want protection from a contingency, but you don't want to have to sacrifice for that protection.
No. People would gladly have the protection from a contingency if there was some more reason than that contingency to fit it, much like with all other counter-ewar modules. That's the whole point: the other counter-ewar is not dependent on contingencies.

You fit a sebo because it provides a good boost to your ship, and the fact that it also gives you a buffer against damps is a very neat bonus should that contingency be realised. You fit tracking enhancers/computers because they provide excellent boosts to your guns, and the fact that it gives you a level of protection against tracking disruptors is a neat bonus should that contingency be realised. TPs are a bit different in that they don't have a counter-module, but that's because they don't affect your performance — only everyone else's.

…but then we have ECCM, which provides no useful boost to your ship (no, being a minuscule amount harder to being probed down doesn't matter unless we're talking about the 1:1+ sigrad/sensor ratios) and should the contingency be realised where they provide a bonus, there is no guarantee that it will have any real effect.

So yes, it massively gimps your fit compared to all other counter-ewar modules.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#30 - 2012-08-26 14:18:52 UTC
The idea is that ECCM boosts your sensor strength, so maybe it should combined with some other type of module related to that function. A module which boosts scan resolution would probably be the most favourable choice.

Oh god.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#31 - 2012-08-26 15:12:44 UTC
Before the last round of mining ship changes, miners were told to fit a tank, even though it gimped your ship for the purposes of mining. There was a tradeoff, but eventually CCP changed it .

Maybe they'll do something similar with regard to this issue. This one seems a bit more complicated though....they can't just add an extra mid slot toll the ships and dedicated EECM slots seems unworkable. Redesigning ECM seems the best route but they have to be careful not to unbalance Caldari as a whole.
C O'Brien
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-08-26 15:14:14 UTC
Ensign X wrote:
ECM does work on NPCs.
That's what I thought....
Saile Litestrider
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-08-26 15:29:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Saile Litestrider
It's very simple. There are two problems. First, it's chance based. There's no skill, no tactics, no nothing, just a dice roll and you're either ok or you're screwed. Second, it's a sort of stun (which I'm defining here as a broad denial of actions). More important than practically, it's psychologically intensely annoying; it's been proven time and time again that the best way to deal with stuns is just to never, ever apply them to the player.

Is it possible for them to be balanced/fair? Certainly. The problem is that dice rolls and stuns are only fair in the long term. Fighting and player psychology don't occur in the long term, they occur in the short term. That's why win/lose rolls and stuns are universally loathed by players, however over or underpowered they may be. The other consideration is the perspective of the player. If you're neuted, tracking disrupted, damped or webbed, you may not actually be able to do anything, but you feel like you can, and that's extremely important. ECM causes the player being jammed to feel helpless because they're simply not allowed to even attempt to do anything. Other forms of EWar still give you at least the illusion of being able to pull out of the situation based on your actions. You may scoff, but the simple psychological effect of this helplessness vs the illusion of control is probably the single most important factor in why jamming/stuns always cause so much ire in games.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-08-26 15:51:23 UTC
ECM makes your ship completely useless, which is bad
the counter to ECM is ECCM which is useless unless you are against ECM.
give ECM another benefit and it won't be so bad.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-08-26 15:54:14 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
ECM makes your ship completely useless, which is bad
the counter to ECM is ECCM which is useless unless you are against ECM.
give ECM another benefit and it won't be so bad.


Get rid of eccm modules,

add a script to sensor boosters that boosts ECCM strength (to what eccm modules used to, ie 96%), its a sensor booster right?

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Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-08-26 16:06:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Gillia Winddancer
Wall of text incoming. Be warned, you might learn something from my infinite wisdom should you keep reading.


The problem with ECM is like others have mentioned, it is the only kind of electronic warfare that is all-or-nothing chance based.

It is also the only type that doesn't alter ship statistics in any way but rather affects a ship functionality directly. In a bad way I might add.

EVE doesn't have any kind of "radar" (anymore anyway) or similar as any player can see any other ship in the same grid. ECM is technically jamming or confusing the opponents radar and similar detection systems but in EVE it merely breaks locks. And immersion, cause let's be honest - totally locking out a player just like that is kinda meh. In WoW terms or similar MMORPG's it would translate to you being permanently stunned or whatever by your opponent whilst he bashes your skull in.

The best thing I could think of in order to change ECM somewhat, would be to make it so that a target under the influence by ECM is unable to get a clear picture of what the grid looks like. Basically the overview should start hiding ships based on their signature radius (a bit like a cloak effect - yes if possible it should also visually affect a player aka hiding ships from the playing field).

For example, if a battleship gets a healthy dose of ECM on it, it will lose track of the smaller ships entirely. It can still lock on to bigger ships cause they are...well, bigger (sig radius) - at least until the ECM concentration is big enough to even hide those. Smaller ships with their stronger sensor strength would require quite a dose of ECM if they were to be unable to target battleships or larger targets. This means of course that ECM would still be viable on frigates, if the goal is protecting your own frigates.
Going back to the battleship, should it have an ECCM or two then it would simply require more ECM on it in order to get the desired effect.

Distance should of course still play a role - the closer the ECM is to the target, the stronger the effect. ECM drones excluded of course.

This IMO would put ECM in line with all other electronic warfare by removing this whole chance based attribute, whilst at the same time not changing the way ECM functions too radically. It will still prevent a target from locking another target, but only if said target is small enough to hide from the affected sensor strength.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#37 - 2012-08-26 16:10:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

Turrets

Its just ammo. They could make turret ammo that does the same thing. Like flack.
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#38 - 2012-08-26 17:09:28 UTC
rofflesausage wrote:
TheBreadMuncher wrote:
Because the only way to counter ECM is to fit to counter ECM.


Or ECCM.

Nothing like watching a Tier 3 BC hit a Falcon because it couldn't get its jam off in time - they soon leave the field.


ECCM = Electronic Counter-CounterMeasures. E.G. Counter ECM.

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#39 - 2012-08-26 17:11:37 UTC
Halcyon Ingenium wrote:
Is it gimped as bad when your jammed and unable to do anything? Oh right it isn't. So you want protection from a contingency, but you don't want to have to sacrifice for that protection. Which is bullshit. You want to fly without "gimping your fit", then you have to pay the price. You can choose to have your high DPS, or you can choose to be prepared for a contingency. CCP says you don't get both. Deal with it.


Here, ladies and gentlemen, is somebody incredibly stupid. Medslot modules, such as ECM, do not affect DPS. Therefore I could choose to either gimp a shield tank (which is unfair because it then reduces my ability to defend against actual damage, even when there is no ECM on the field) or to remove a utility such as a point or cap booster (which is unfair because this either stops me holding an enemy down or reduces the survivability of an armor tank). In this way, I can choose to take high DPS, or I can choose to watch a target fly away. CCP says this system is flawed. Deal with it.

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Misunderstood Genius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-08-26 17:16:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Misunderstood Genius
Whining at ECM is a tradition in EVE. If you would remove ECM from the game it would just push all the tears on "too much logistics" or something else what's annoying. Why is ECM at the top of the list? Because you can't lock anything and in many cases it doesn't matter if you could lock or not. You would have died anyway without getting a kill. The result is the same: you jump into a t3 gatecamp with Guardians, you get blobbed without ECM or killed by a smaller fleet with ECM. Anyone who believes in fair fights or balanced PvP in EVE does not understand the game.

CCP nerfed the Falcon a long time ago and people are too lazy or not experienced enough how to deal with it. ECM gives a chance for a smaller fleet to counter a bigger one. Before the nerf it was overpowered indeed. After the nerf the killboards were filled up with loads of Falcon losses.

Ofc it's a pain but it's also a pain to
- get nailed down by a Rapier at 50km while the main kills you
- get killed by a bigger fleet
- get killed by a t3 fleet with logistics
- get killled by RR BS's
- get killed by neuts
- get killed by bigger ships
- get killed by a hotdrop
- get killed by nano-****
- get killed by Loki boosted points and webs

I am sure you will find many more examples where EVE is totally unfair and sucks because it's simply a multiplayer game where you always face a bigger fish.

ECM is meant to deal with numbers or logistics. And I see a lot of logistics around these days. On the other side you can use it to kill a solo BS in your Cruiser by perma-jamming with your alt. Sure. But there are many other different ways to die horribly in EVE. ECM is not the worst one. Bring snipers or nano-ships and Falcons are pretty useless on the field. They die fast or have to run.

The much bigger issue are ECM-drones. Nearly anyone is using them and tbh you don't need a Falcon in this case. You face a small fleet of Hurricanes. They suck your cap to death and perma-jam your ship with EC-300's out of the fight easily. Bring a Falcon and you get smacked by these guys for sure.

The Falcon is dead. Long live the Falcon. Welcom to EVIL-Online.