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ASB is BULL.

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#461 - 2012-08-22 16:03:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Hrett wrote:

But they are not a direct counter to small gangs. A single Hurricane with dual neuts can cap out Liang's single-booster fit posted earlier. With both invulns turned off it tanks a whopping 32dps during reload. Even with its invulns ON, it tanks 44 dps. It will die during its first reload probably. It will die during its second for certain.


It's got nos to counter neuting, and it's cap use isn't that high. The invulns have stayed on during battle testing, despite me neuting myself completely dry.

Quote:

In fact, I would bet money that a regular XL shield booster Cyclone or Blaster Dual Rep+1600 plate Myrm or Armor Cane or Ham Drake (or perhaps even armor buffer Myrm) can solo one (the buffer ships will be close). Maybe a Dual Rep Brutix (but not sure because of the lack of a neut). I am pretty sure that each of these ships will kill it during its first reload with the addition of a single T1 combat frigate like an Incursus or a Merlin, if you really want to test the "counter to small gang" thing. The frig just needs to stay out of range until reload and then come in and apply dps.


God dammit man will you ******* listen? The ship must be taking eight hundred DPS in order to pop my Cyclone during its first reload. A regular XL Cyclone is going to be doing significantly less than that, therefore at best it will pop my cyclone late in its second reload. Furthermore, a regular XL cyclone is going to struggle to keep its shield booster running under the heavy neuting my ship is capable of. It will not win, period.

A dual rep Myrm will have the same problem. A slaved armor Cane will die before I even reach my first booster reload. Drakes will die before I reach my second reload... though their damage is low enough that they may not even push me to a reload at all. Honestly, the ship I'd be most concerned about is none of the ships you mentioned, but instead a slaved armor Harbinger. The ASB craze is the largest buff Amarr has ever seen.

And really, I'm not talking out my ass here. My ASB cyclone is battle tested. It works almost arbitrarily better than you're giving it credit for.

Quote:
even if it tanks 5000dps during its cycle - its what it tanks after that first 54 seconds that will make the difference.


And that's what you're mistaking. If I'm fighting a Brutix dealing 800 DPS, I won't reload at 54 seconds. I'll reload at 5000 / 800 * 54 = 324 seconds into the fight. And to make that perfectly crystal clear: An XL ASB cyclone can tank 800 DPS for five minutes before the first reload. It'll actually pop somewhere around the 6 minute mark.

Quote:
Again - I will keep an open mind. Perhaps you are right. Test and settle it. I would come do it myself tonight, but I am pretty sure my wife will be having a baby by then, and I will have other things to do. :)


Congrats!!

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#462 - 2012-08-22 18:08:50 UTC
Are you talking solo with no boosts? I don't think so. Either use boosts for both ships, or use boosts for neither, but don't use them for just one. Let's compare apples to apples here.

I understand the theory - do the 1 v 1s and test it. It will prove you are right.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#463 - 2012-08-22 19:06:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Hrett wrote:
Are you talking solo with no boosts? I don't think so. Either use boosts for both ships, or use boosts for neither, but don't use them for just one. Let's compare apples to apples here.

I understand the theory - do the 1 v 1s and test it. It will prove you are right.


Of course I was assuming boosts for both ships. But it's awfully had for a Tengu booster to matter when you don't have the capacitor to consistently run your tank. The slaved armor buffer fits were also obviously assuming links.

-Liang

Ed: FWIW, I'll try to arrange some even 1v1s with corp mates tonight. But the funny part about this is that it doesn't matter whether I convince you. CCP is already convinced.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#464 - 2012-08-22 21:37:56 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Hrett wrote:
Are you talking solo with no boosts? I don't think so. Either use boosts for both ships, or use boosts for neither, but don't use them for just one. Let's compare apples to apples here.

I understand the theory - do the 1 v 1s and test it. It will prove you are right.


Of course I was assuming boosts for both ships. But it's awfully had for a Tengu booster to matter when you don't have the capacitor to consistently run your tank. The slaved armor buffer fits were also obviously assuming links.

-Liang

Ed: FWIW, I'll try to arrange some even 1v1s with corp mates tonight. But the funny part about this is that it doesn't matter whether I convince you. CCP is already convinced.


They are convinced that dual ASB setups are OP upon which we all agree.

They are convinced that Offgrid boosting is OP, upon which many agree.

They are convinced that Armor tanking needs a buff, upon which many agree.

I havent seen them say that single ASB setups are OP.

If you are able to test it great. But if as you say that the Cyclone only needs 800dps applied to it to pop it during reload, then I dont really have an issue with it. A BC plus any other BC, damage cruiser, or damage frigate (perhaps 2) can do that. 2 damage cruisers might be able to do it. Another active tank ship MIGHT be able to do that if it can survive two cycles. Thus based on your math representation, I am convinced it is not a "counter to a small gang." Its extremely powerful for its cycle. It is then extremely weak for 60 seconds. I can deal with that. o/

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#465 - 2012-08-23 08:48:12 UTC
Hrett wrote:

They are convinced that Armor tanking needs a buff, upon which many agree.

I havent seen them say that single ASB setups are OP.

I haven't seen them saying single ASB setups are fine either.

The point is, if a single ASB setup is superior to a buffer one, which already was, quite frankly, too good, then how can anyone sane expect this ASB to be NOT overpowered?

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Mildew Wolf
#466 - 2012-08-23 18:16:52 UTC
imo any large buffs to tanking (without significant changes to damage) are not going to be good for solo/small gang

some fight that used to be over in 20 seconds now takes much longer

more difficult to split up larger groups effectively
IGNATIUS HOOD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#467 - 2012-08-23 21:55:14 UTC
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:


And a rattlesnake with FOUR cruise launchers and no drones broke your tank? Did he neut you? Does that now come with the generic mission carebear **** fit?


See, there's this thing called a buffer fit...


So he had no repper. And the mission ship had a scram.

Also, wouldn't a buffer fit be something more for a fleet op than solo pvp?


Yeah, you'd kinda like a logi, or ideally a Carrier feeding you reps and cap. Solo Bhaagorning isn't very common on TQ.

~but with no repper or support~

A death of a thousand papercuts is still death.

I am officially dumber for having actually read this thread as far as I have. May god have mercy on your souls! Big smile

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   --H.L. Mencken
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#468 - 2012-08-24 02:41:55 UTC
Well, there was another thread I created where I Identified the main issue:

- Multiple Ancillary Shield Booster
- XL Ancillary Shield Booster
- Medium Ancillary Shield Booster

There's nothing wrong with a single large or small Ancillary Shield Booster. Although! Clearly more than 1 small and Large Ancillary Shield Booster are some what problematic, but manageable.

However, the main issues are around XL and Medium Ancillary Shield Booster and multiple Ancillary Shield Boosters period.

I personally don't want to get rid of these modules but @tleast limiting them to 1 per ship seems like the easiest way to go forward v0v There are others who would like to go further than I would and NERF (boost amount) or GET RID of Ancillary Shield Booster altogether. @tleast I'm willing to accept the crazy POWA of a single XL and Medium Ancillary Shield Booster v0v

I'm not sure about the other players interest in NERFING the shield boost amount of all Ancillary Shield Boosters. NERFING XL and medium Ancillary Shield Boosters makes sense, but not large and small...


- end of transmission

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#469 - 2012-08-24 02:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
Mildew Wolf wrote:
imo any large buffs to tanking (without significant changes to damage) are not going to be good for solo/small gang

some fight that used to be over in 20 seconds now takes much longer

more difficult to split up larger groups effectively




WOW your character's ugly. A man with boobs... Hmm! I wish my character had CAT eyes and BAT ears. That sh!t would be hella cool.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#470 - 2012-08-24 08:38:41 UTC
Freezehunter wrote:
Sang-in Tiers wrote:
Cameron Cahill wrote:
Sang-in Tiers wrote:
Yea well Amarr stuff sucks, its as simple as that. Laser suck, armor tanking sucks. End of.


Show me a bs with 90k raw shields that does 600 dps before drones at 50k with full damage 90% of the time. Might believe you then.

The benefits of other weapon systems and shield tanking are bigger, lasers needs a fix...


Regarding lasers I'd be happy if they made pulse tracking a tad better and they added Lux (explosive laser) Crystals back in the game.

Blasters have awesome tracking and damage.
Autocannons have awesome tracking, falloff and ROF, and no energy use.
Rails have awesome sniping capability.
Arty has awesome alpha.
Lasers have....

Crap damage types.
Crap tracking (when lasers IRL can shoot down missiles going mach 5)
Huge cap usage.


Meeeeh.


Wait wait wait, this is a thread complaining about the strength of ASBs and your solution is to add explosive laser crystals back into the game...barring Minmatar T2 combat hulls, what the hell for? Many ASB ships leave their EM resistance severely lacking because they spend so much fitting space on an oversized ASB and it doesn't leave CPU for strong resists in many cases.

I've been an almost exclusively Amarr pilot since 2008 and I still love my lasers, frigates are often my hulls of choice and tbh sometimes i don't even notice the ASB on some of the frigates I kill, they spend so much fitting space on that medium ASB that their EM resist is often 0% and it melts away as fast as they boost.

If you're looking to stop ASBs being so effective the last thing to ask for is for your lasers to deal explosive damage, the cap usage is often negligible as the ships they go on have superior capacitors as well as using far less cap in many cases than it shows on paper with the cap use bonuses. The tracking on lasers is worse than autocannons/blasters yes but laser damage projection is far superior with much better optimal. As a result the on paper damage of Projectiles/Blasters is very high but if you're having any difficulties at all closing ranges the lasers will be doing much closer to full damage than you are in deep falloff. Additionally at the longer ranges the tracking is less of an issue as transversal is lower at range. If you really want to see lasers boosted, you have my full support but be careful you know the full implications of what you're asking for.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Conrad Lionhart
#471 - 2012-08-24 10:54:32 UTC
What in the world is an ASB?

Ancillary Shield Booster? The X-Large one?
DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#472 - 2012-08-24 13:40:26 UTC
The only thing that bothers me about the ASB is the fact that we still don't have is equivalent to armor. CCP I demand a Ancillary Armor Repairer, in 3 flavours: Small, Medium and Large please Cool
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#473 - 2012-08-24 15:03:48 UTC
DeadDuck wrote:
The only thing that bothers me about the ASB is the fact that we still don't have is equivalent to armor. CCP I demand a Ancillary Armor Repairer, in 3 flavours: Small, Medium and Large pleaseCool


It'll be prenerfed then, the trick to ASB is being able to fit oversized ones. It's impossible to fit oversized armor reppers and as there's no XL armor repper it won't be on par compared with ASB.
Kalterox
Doomheim
#474 - 2012-08-26 13:24:44 UTC
Right now ASB's are great for solo, because you can pwn any number of buffer fit scrubs while tanking them and their 5 friends.

When everyone is using them in 4 months, it's going to be utterly crap for solo and small gang.

What a stupid module. Probably the single dumbest introduction since when CCP decided Inertia stabilisers should give a vast non-stacked increase to agility and speed. Although, at least 4km/s battleships were fun, rather than turning everything into a 15 minute tanking grind.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#475 - 2012-08-26 14:36:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
ASBs are fine.

Ill use the Cyclone because it has these obscene theoretical numbers being thrown around.

They can be soloed, despite claims to the contrary.

http://pinkiepie.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14290526

Even dual XLASB are not invincible because of alpha.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14444795

Say it out loud: "54 seconds."

That is how long they are awesome for. 54 Seconds. They might need a fitting increase to discourage dual oversized fits, but otherwise:

54 seconds.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Gro'Mit
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#476 - 2012-08-26 14:39:14 UTC
Y U HEF 2 B MED, ITZ ONLEE EH GAYM.

Here's an idea, start using ASB's.

Problem solved.

Move on.
Kalterox
Doomheim
#477 - 2012-08-26 15:03:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalterox
Hrett wrote:
ASBs are fine.

Ill use the Cyclone because it has these obscene theoretical numbers being thrown around.

They can be soloed, despite claims to the contrary.

http://pinkiepie.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14290526

Even dual XLASB are not invincible because of alpha.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14444795

Say it out loud: "54 seconds."

That is how long they are awesome for. 54 Seconds. They might need a fitting increase to discourage dual oversized fits, but otherwise:

54 seconds.


Look at you being all contrarian.

Yeah of course, because dual ASB's isn't literally "invincible" they must be "fine". Despite numerous pvp videos proving you can tank 3-5 bc in a bc for the full length of a 10+ minute fight.

Stop trolling you ****.
Kalterox
Doomheim
#478 - 2012-08-26 15:06:49 UTC
Gro'Mit wrote:
Y U HEF 2 B MED, ITZ ONLEE EH GAYM.

Here's an idea, start using ASB's.

Problem solved.

Move on.


I use ASB's. It isn't a solution. When they become widespread it will wreck solo pvp and small gang. They're a huge lopsided buff to tanking, which will affect all non-fleet pvp.

In fact let's just cut to the chase: they're hilarious badly balanced and will be nerfed.

PS. the "u mad" thing hasn't been funny since about 2008 you atrocious pubby.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#479 - 2012-08-26 16:06:28 UTC
Kalterox wrote:
Hrett wrote:
ASBs are fine.

Ill use the Cyclone because it has these obscene theoretical numbers being thrown around.

They can be soloed, despite claims to the contrary.

http://pinkiepie.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14290526

Even dual XLASB are not invincible because of alpha.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14444795

Say it out loud: "54 seconds."

That is how long they are awesome for. 54 Seconds. They might need a fitting increase to discourage dual oversized fits, but otherwise:

54 seconds.


Look at you being all contrarian.

Yeah of course, because dual ASB's isn't literally "invincible" they must be "fine". Despite numerous pvp videos proving you can tank 3-5 bc in a bc for the full length of a 10+ minute fight.

Stop trolling you ****.


Link please. I linked one getting soloed. Please link one tanking 5 bcs.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#480 - 2012-08-26 16:49:14 UTC
Hrett wrote:
Kalterox wrote:
Hrett wrote:
ASBs are fine.

Ill use the Cyclone because it has these obscene theoretical numbers being thrown around.

They can be soloed, despite claims to the contrary.

http://pinkiepie.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14290526

Even dual XLASB are not invincible because of alpha.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14444795

Say it out loud: "54 seconds."

That is how long they are awesome for. 54 Seconds. They might need a fitting increase to discourage dual oversized fits, but otherwise:

54 seconds.


Look at you being all contrarian.

Yeah of course, because dual ASB's isn't literally "invincible" they must be "fine". Despite numerous pvp videos proving you can tank 3-5 bc in a bc for the full length of a 10+ minute fight.

Stop trolling you ****.


Link please. I linked one getting soloed. Please link one tanking 5 bcs.


You just linked a kill that showed that an xl-asb ship can take out 2 cruisers in a 1 vs 15 fight.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}