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CCP, please allow us to combat AFK Cloaking. Idea inside....

Author
Athreya
YTM Corporation
#61 - 2012-08-22 07:31:46 UTC
Guys, dont mix tactical cloaking and when cloaker intentionally sit in local for weeks. Besides if you want to protect such gameplay, there is a solution which will ruin nothing, but also fix the problem. E.g. if you are afk cloaked, you dont see local chat and dont appear in local chat. In game message window "Click OK when you are ready to play" will ruin nothing.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#62 - 2012-08-22 07:36:11 UTC
Athreya wrote:
Guys, dont mix tactical cloaking and when cloaker intentionally sit in local for weeks. Besides if you want to protect such gameplay, there is a solution which will ruin nothing, but also fix the problem.

1) there is nothing wrong with a cloaker intentionally sitting in local. you can (and probably do) sit there as well.
2) cloak nerf would make wide areas of 0.0 too safe
3) which problem?? There is nothing which needs a fix.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#63 - 2012-08-22 07:39:40 UTC
Athreya wrote:
Guys, dont mix tactical cloaking and when cloaker intentionally sit in local for weeks. Besides if you want to protect such gameplay, there is a solution which will ruin nothing, but also fix the problem. E.g. if you are afk cloaked, you dont see local chat and dont appear in local chat. In game message window "Click OK when you are ready to play" will ruin nothing.


Yeah, I'm totally behind you on this. I love the idea of being able to go into an enemy's space, cloak up and vanish off local.

Mainly because I'd warp to a belt and sit there, cloaked, until I vanished off local and then wait for my trap to be sprung by someone coming to the belt feeling safe and secure then BAM, I decloak, lock the bugger and kill him. All the time he had no idea I was even in the system.

I'm loving the new meta gaming your idea allows to the active player. The ability to drop yourself off any form of intel would be super awesome for those that like to cloak.

Mind you, those that want to carebear in nullsec would whine way more about this than they ever have about AFK cloakers and we all know how much they whine about that already. Probably because they're not bright enough to have worked out what the alternatives are.
Athreya
YTM Corporation
#64 - 2012-08-22 07:49:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Athreya
Robert Caldera wrote:
Athreya wrote:
Guys, dont mix tactical cloaking and when cloaker intentionally sit in local for weeks. Besides if you want to protect such gameplay, there is a solution which will ruin nothing, but also fix the problem.

1) there is nothing wrong with a cloaker intentionally sitting in local. you can (and probably do) sit there as well.
2) cloak nerf would make wide areas of 0.0 too safe
3) which problem?? There is nothing which needs a fix.


If you sleep, your char should not play instead of you. What do you want to achieve while you sleep, afk? This is bot's pattern, making anything in the game while you sleep. Stop crying about your cloaked afk bot, play the game manually. Big smile

Tchulen wrote:
Mainly because I'd warp to a belt and sit there, cloaked, until I vanished off local and then wait for my trap to be sprung by someone coming to the belt feeling safe and secure then BAM, I decloak, lock the bugger and kill him. All the time he had no idea I was even in the system.
When you hit escape to open eve settings, you dont see anything in the game. AFK mode should do this also, of cause, or this will be too easy to make afk-traps.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#65 - 2012-08-22 08:27:36 UTC
Athreya wrote:

If you sleep, your char should not play instead of you. What do you want to achieve while you sleep, afk? This is bot's pattern, making anything in the game while you sleep. Stop crying about your cloaked afk bot, play the game manually. Big smile

I dont want to shock you but let me tell you about all the skillpoints ticking while I sleep or manufactoring jobs being completed while I sleep or market orders getting fulfilled while I sleep. There is no reason why I shouldnt be able to cloak while I sleep.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#66 - 2012-08-22 09:33:51 UTC
Athreya wrote:
Tchulen wrote:
Mainly because I'd warp to a belt and sit there, cloaked, until I vanished off local and then wait for my trap to be sprung by someone coming to the belt feeling safe and secure then BAM, I decloak, lock the bugger and kill him. All the time he had no idea I was even in the system.
When you hit escape to open eve settings, you dont see anything in the game. AFK mode should do this also, of cause, or this will be too easy to make afk-traps.


Yeah, I think you missed the point of my post. I was being sarcastic. I'm not endorsing your idea whatsoever. I've got fed up of calling you lot pathetic whining carebears so I moved over to being sarcastic instead. Your idea is better than most but still completely open to abuse. I, like a lot of people, play multiple accounts simultaneously. I currently don't AFK cloak because I don't see the point but if your suggestion was implimented I certainly would start just for the jokes of going afk, waiting for a suitable time for people in the system to get comfy then just come out of AFK for a second and then leave it to timeout again. One could do way more psychological damage with this than you can at the moment.

Cloaking works fine for everyone except that special breed of wimps called nullbears. You make high sec carebears look positively hardcore with your incipid whinging. "Save me from the people doing nothing at all". Grow some balls, for heaven's sake. "We can't protect our own space from people who aren't even at their computer". Have you any idea what complete idiots you sound? No, no, of couse you don't.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#67 - 2012-08-22 11:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Athreya wrote:
Guys, dont mix tactical cloaking and when cloaker intentionally sit in local for weeks. Besides if you want to protect such gameplay, there is a solution which will ruin nothing, but also fix the problem. E.g. if you are afk cloaked, you dont see local chat and dont appear in local chat. In game message window "Click OK when you are ready to play" will ruin nothing.
Cloaking and going AFK is also tactical. It's an attempt to subvert the instant intel local is providing you, 23.5/7.

But there is one major difference, between local intel and AFKing. Intel from local is guaranteed, whereas the psychological effects from AFKing are not.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
#68 - 2012-08-22 13:24:17 UTC
I have not ventured out to low sec much but the local chat is how it should be. Empire space is monitored and policed ( .5> ) so CONCORD can hand out security status changes, for them to do that they need to know where you are so every ship needs to be 'online' in a system to be tracked.

In null-sec the local chat should be a function of sovereignty , it was mentioned in another AFK Cloaky thread. Having a comms tower that hosts the local chat channel and force all ships in the system to respond to the communications request. So cloaked or not you show up, but you can try and take the tower or use that as a distraction to hit another target.

The comms tower would be a important target when trying to take a system over and make active scout cloakers very important.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#69 - 2012-08-22 13:40:34 UTC
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:
I just mine in my Battleship EHP Skiff when we have a cloaky bomber in System.

Total Bombers dead because they tried to bomb my 79k EHP Skiff: 8

Total Bombers dead because they tried to torp my 79k EHP Skiff: 3

This attitude is the answer to all your afk cloaking problems.

No tactic or strategy is so perfect that it cannot be countered.

The very idea that you should have perfect awareness of a stealth ship might suggest the real question:
Are you sure local is your friend?
If you say yes, and you or your group is paralyzed by one ghost ship... ADAPT.
LiBraga
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-08-23 10:38:06 UTC
Personally I always thought if they implemented something to disrupt cloaking it should be a pos module that requirers a system strategic upgrade, much like the cyno jammer has.
There would also be a monthly cost for having the upgrade installed.

The cloaking disruptor would emit a system wide pulse every 10 minutes that would cause ALL cloaked ships to decloak.

Pros - For the system owners
Upgrade systems wouldn't have afk cloakers

Cons - For the system owners
Monthly upkeep cost
Own cloakers are also affected

Pros - For the Cloaker
Costing them isk and now you don't have to visit them to do it

Cons - For the Cloaker
Have to recloak every 10 minutes

If it moves.... You obviously didn't kill it the first time.

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#71 - 2012-08-23 11:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
LiBraga wrote:
Personally I always thought if they implemented something to disrupt cloaking it should be a pos module that requirers a system strategic upgrade, much like the cyno jammer has.
There would also be a monthly cost for having the upgrade installed.

The cloaking disruptor would emit a system wide pulse every 10 minutes that would cause ALL cloaked ships to decloak.

Pros - For the system owners
Upgrade systems wouldn't have afk cloakers

Cons - For the system owners
Monthly upkeep cost
Own cloakers are also affected

Pros - For the Cloaker
Costing them isk and now you don't have to visit them to do it

Cons - For the Cloaker
Have to recloak every 10 minutes


no this would break afk cloaking in important jew systems, but afk cloaking is fine and required as we learned in the past.
you again try to bring a "fix" for something that is not broken.
Melodee619
Heavy Industry Construction and Mining Inc.
#72 - 2012-08-23 11:23:36 UTC
ratters dont wanna pay any attention, they want eve to be as simple as wow to play an have CCP hold their hand. Hence this campain of spammign forums with drama over somone being "afk" in cloak.
I know tonight while I was in Y-MP I had 3 death threats an several "you are now KOS to my alliance" mails.... All in place of 1 hour

It's a little sad to see them post spam after spam in hopes CCP give in. Or though, it worked for miners so....
Melodee619
Heavy Industry Construction and Mining Inc.
#73 - 2012-08-23 11:26:50 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:
I just mine in my Battleship EHP Skiff when we have a cloaky bomber in System.

Total Bombers dead because they tried to bomb my 79k EHP Skiff: 8

Total Bombers dead because they tried to torp my 79k EHP Skiff: 3

This attitude is the answer to all your afk cloaking problems.

No tactic or strategy is so perfect that it cannot be countered.

The very idea that you should have perfect awareness of a stealth ship might suggest the real question:
Are you sure local is your friend?
If you say yes, and you or your group is paralyzed by one ghost ship... ADAPT.


They dont want to adapt, see his post, they want CCP to play for them. Create ships that cant be solo kill
They dont wanna adapt, they want CCP to make them immune. hence his post.

There is no issue with cloakers, this is simply a campaign of ratters wanting to ignore local so they can bot
anishamora
Atelierele Grivita
#74 - 2012-08-23 14:25:07 UTC
Athreya wrote:
Guys, dont mix tactical cloaking and when cloaker intentionally sit in local for weeks. Besides if you want to protect such gameplay, there is a solution which will ruin nothing, but also fix the problem. E.g. if you are afk cloaked, you dont see local chat and dont appear in local chat. In game message window "Click OK when you are ready to play" will ruin nothing.


So you propose like a...double cloak ! This will surely fix your imaginary problem Lol
How about you just minimize local and don't notice the evil cloaker anymore? You might even grow some chest hair.
Zemfadel
Hand Trade Society
#75 - 2012-08-23 15:48:52 UTC
I love that the same group of trollers always reply to these threads. Mag's, do you not find it embarrassing that you spend all day on the EVE forums? do you even play this game or do you just pay the sub for the forum access?

1. Awesome idea by the OP. Works perfectly to allow active people to remain uncatchable, allows for using cloaks for short breaks, even allows for using them to disrupt local activity as long as you are even somewhat at the comp, while stopping people from having there toon cloaked in a system while they are at work so that they can return to a system with other players who have gone about their business and are easy targets for a quick ambush.

2. Unless things have change in the last year CCP has said they aren't removing local in null sec, get over it. Local was removed in W-space so that people have that game play if they want it.

3. Going about your business with an afk cloaker is exactly what they want you to do. Its a win win situation for the afk cloaker really, either you stop doing anything in that system (they win by stopping you from being able to play without even being at the computer) or you go about your business (they win by being able to return to the computer with soft targets). There is literally no down side or challenge to over come with afk cloaking, you always win and can never be killed (baring utter stupidity) or even threatened.

4. AFK cloaking is very similar to macro mining, even if it upsets you to admit it. In both instances a player is gaining an advantage with out actively playing the game. macro mining gets you ore, afk cloaking gets you easy targets. At least macro mining has an in game counter (shooting the macro miner), afk cloaking, and the advantage it affords (depriving other players of any reaction time when the afk cloaker finally decides to return among other things), has no counter in game or out. So afk cloaking is worse than macro mining. Even if CCP weren't trying to stop macro mining, there would be a way for other players to stop it, or at least make it harder. Not so much with afk cloaking.

CCP/Devs: when you look at these threads remember that, unlike mags, most players never even look on these forums much less post their opinion on them. A lot of the opinions you are getting here are the people who get on here with the sole intention of telling other players their ideas are bad and telling you that anything that makes them have to work for what they want (kills) is a terrible idea and would ruin the game. Probably similar to marco miners getting angry about people suggesting they should have to work for what they want (ore).
Hrothgar Nilsson
#76 - 2012-08-23 16:38:38 UTC
How about cloaking disrupts a ship's comm link with the subspace beacon?

That way, cloaked ships don't show up in local. And your worries about AFK cloakers would disappear.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#77 - 2012-08-23 16:50:51 UTC
This is awesome!
Zemfadel wrote:
I love that the same group of trollers always reply to these threads. Mag's, do you not find it embarrassing that you spend all day on the EVE forums? do you even play this game or do you just pay the sub for the forum access?

NN: Ad hominem: short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it. -Wikipedia



1. Awesome idea by the OP. Works perfectly to allow active people to remain uncatchable, allows for using cloaks for short breaks, even allows for using them to disrupt local activity as long as you are even somewhat at the comp, while stopping people from having there toon cloaked in a system while they are at work so that they can return to a system with other players who have gone about their business and are easy targets for a quick ambush.

NN: Ahh, you would dictate terms so pilots playing with a different style would be handicapped.



2. Unless things have change in the last year CCP has said they aren't removing local in null sec, get over it. Local was removed in W-space so that people have that game play if they want it.

NN: Seriously? Suggesting that the only difference between wormholes and regular space is the absence of local chat?


3. Going about your business with an afk cloaker is exactly what they want you to do. Its a win win situation for the afk cloaker really, either you stop doing anything in that system (they win by stopping you from being able to play without even being at the computer) or you go about your business (they win by being able to return to the computer with soft targets). There is literally no down side or challenge to over come with afk cloaking, you always win and can never be killed (baring utter stupidity) or even threatened.

NN: Win what, exactly? They don't win anything at all, outside of your imagination itself. Try adapting to combat their tactics instead of just rolling over


4. AFK cloaking is very similar to macro mining, even if it upsets you to admit it. In both instances a player is gaining an advantage with out actively playing the game. macro mining gets you ore, afk cloaking gets you easy targets. At least macro mining has an in game counter (shooting the macro miner), afk cloaking, and the advantage it affords (depriving other players of any reaction time when the afk cloaker finally decides to return among other things), has no counter in game or out. So afk cloaking is worse than macro mining. Even if CCP weren't trying to stop macro mining, there would be a way for other players to stop it, or at least make it harder. Not so much with afk cloaking.

NN: Macro mining involves automated play with very specific and measurable rewards in game. How much ISK can the "AFK" cloaking pilot get for doing nothing but possibly moving in a straight line?


CCP/Devs: when you look at these threads remember that, unlike mags, most players never even look on these forums much less post their opinion on them. A lot of the opinions you are getting here are the people who get on here with the sole intention of telling other players their ideas are bad and telling you that anything that makes them have to work for what they want (kills) is a terrible idea and would ruin the game. Probably similar to marco miners getting angry about people suggesting they should have to work for what they want (ore).


Where do you get off saying your play style is more valid than anyone else's?
You have the nerve to tell people they are cheating simply because you can't do what you want?

And the saddest part of it all is that it comes down to a lack of imagination on the part of the frustrated pilots. You CAN adapt and beat this tactic.
Imustbecomfused
Illicit Expo
#78 - 2012-08-23 17:09:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Imustbecomfused
To the OP, Not a bad idea imo. Kicking players off the server after 15/30/60 minutes of no play is silly, (Im sure some pilots have spent hours not moving, cloaked, while gathering intel... for example). Giving the cloaked ships a special sig on grid is a great way to identify, and with a counter.... a great way to balance, afk cloaking. They could still stay cloaked... If a ship is cloaked for (length of time), with no activity, giving it a signature that can be scanned down with special probes, maybe from a special launcher, even add a special ship, create a new role for crying out loud, it is quite the idea, just saying. Its rather fair tbh. If CCP made it so all you had to do was double click off in a direction and control+space every hour or so, that could effectively help remove true AFK cloakers, if there was a force out to scan them down that is.

However, I dont care for many of the ideas supporting some way to identify a cloaked pilot in any given system, even if I want to run sites in that system, I put myself in that position. I do sit cloaked a bit in heavily populated systems to gather intel, for example... for hours... I dont move... it isnt fair that Im now susceptible to attack, just cause I havent moved my ship... Im logged on, rather you think Im at my keyboard or not, shouldn't even matter! I pay for my right to log on, if I want to go afk for the day and play golf, thats up to me and you shouldnt have any advantage of me I do so. Maybe my corp mate agreed to keep me in his fleet so I can gain standings, but go golfing, and I will sit in that system cloaked up at my safe... who says I HAVE to dock?

So I can see both sides of the issue, these are just a few hypothetical situations, which may seem unfair... or giving one side an advantage which may seem unfair...

I dont want it to change personally, but if it had to, Id vote for an idea like the OP suggested. Seems like its a good start to a FAIR mechanic that may help balance afk cloaking.

And yes I know and agree with:
Just cause theres 50 so you think afk cloakers in system, that doesnt prevent you from doing anything in that system. Be smart, creative, or find a new system. My .02
Zemfadel
Hand Trade Society
#79 - 2012-08-23 19:48:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Zemfadel
oh man, hes taken a logic class!!! Probably should have payed a bit more attention though. To be an ad hominem (use VASTLY more often than argumentum ad hominem) i would have had to been arguing he was wrong because he trolls the eve forums all day. In fact, i didn't pose a single proposition anywhere in that first paragraph, either implicitly or explicitly, so it isn't an argument in any way shape or form and there for can't possibly be an ad hominem.
EDIT: specifically, your talking about an abusive ad hominem. an ad hominem (argumentum ad hominem) is a class of logical fallacies where you attack the arguer not their argument, hence the name ad hominem "the man" or "arguing the man" if you prefer the long version, and really requires a bit more information than just calling it an ad hominem (try scrolling down the wiki, there is more information there than just the opening paragraph).


If afk cloaking is a playing style then why is there no counter to it? either I stop playing or i continue playing and make myself a soft target, either of which constitutes a successful attack. I have no way to combat this "play style" (more accurately described as a lack of play style) which means that it is unbalanced and should be fixed. The OPs idea is an awesome one which will even allow for "afk" cloaking as long as once every hour or so (seems like a fair amount of time to me) you warp to another spot. The only thing this would stop is people who walk away from the computer for the entire day, if your cloaked gathering intel you could simply "slow boat" far enough away from your original spot to just warp back to it and never even leave the grid your on, if your taking a break you have an hour or more before you need to come back, if your "afk cloaking" (using the threat of a cloaked ship to either stop local activity or force your targets into a vulnerable position without their ability to counter you) you simply need to warp every hour or so. So the only play style it would subvert is the one where your not playing.

Quote:
NN: Seriously? Suggesting that the only difference between wormholes and regular space is the absence of local chat?

you want to talk about logical fallacies, how about straw man. I didn't say, in any way, that the ONLY difference between k-space and w-space is the lack of local. I said that it is A difference and if a lack of local is what your looking for then w-space is where you need to go. thats about the best example of using an outright lie as your opponents argument as i've seen. Have you thought about going into politics?

Quote:
"NN: Win what, exactly? They don't win anything at all, outside of your imagination itself. Try adapting to combat their tactics instead of just rolling over
NN: Macro mining involves automated play with very specific and measurable rewards in game. How much ISK can the "AFK" cloaking pilot get for doing nothing but possibly moving in a straight line?"

the goal of afk cloaking isn't to make isk, its to either stop local activity or create soft targets. Afk cloaking WILL succeed at one of these two goal every single time. if it fails to create soft targets then it MUST have stopped local activity. if it fails at stopping local activity then there MUST be a player, or group of players, that is vulnerable to an easy attack. This may require the cloaker to cyno in friends, but in every situation an afk cloaker either stops local activity or affords themselves an "easy" target, guaranteed, while "the target" has no means to counter such actions.

I have no problem with a cloaked player being removed from local. i personally think that when you jump into a system you SHOULDN'T show up in local until after you decloak (why the hell does seeing gate fire and looking at local tell you exactly who is about to show up on your grid). but in order for this to keep cloaked ships from becoming all but invulnerable there would need to be a way to scan for cloaked ships or in some way find out if one is in system with you. special scan probes that would give you less accuracy but would include pilot info possible, maybe they would only show cloaked ship and would take a much longer time to scan than standard probes. that would all be a major overhaul and would need a lot of effort to keep from making cloaked ships easily uncovered and killing intel gathering and using cloaks for short breaks. I think it would add a lot of fun to the cloaking mechanic, would turn it into a cat and mouse between the cloaker and the scanner (preferably a ship that a specifically fitted cloaking ship could quickly kill but only by being fit in a way that would make it vulnerable to other ships). But again, all this would require a major overhaul of both cloaking and local and would have to be done very carefully to keep cloaked ships from becoming easily found or local from becoming worthless.

The point is, being able to gain an advantage over other players while your afk = flaw
CaleAdaire
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#80 - 2012-08-23 19:52:45 UTC
Implying Implications wrote:
Show me on the doll where the AFK-cloaker touched you.


They were AFK, so... there was no touching per se

Trust in God, Have Faith in Fusion.