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Trans Gamers of EvE - TGoE

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Transmaritanus
Exergy.
#61 - 2012-08-20 20:34:07 UTC
Xolani1990 wrote:

Equal treatment isn't special treatment. See, again, you're unable to relate because you've never grown up with the hurdles you encounter if you're minority. Ethnic minorities still often encounter hate crime. LGBT people still encounter institutionalised discrimination in the form of bullying in schools (which is endemic and teachers often fail to deal with), denial of legal recognition of relationships and the rights that go with it, and stigmatisation and ostracism in public up to and including the threat of violence if it's apparent you're a same-sex couple or a transsexual.
.



That's bullshit. People have been bullied and had hurdles long before this was ever an issue. People aren't going to accept other ideas if they're shoved down their throat. I'm a damn minority IRL and I hate how everyone bitches about how it's hard and whatever complaints are used as an excuse.

There's violence on both sides, it's just no one wants to ever bring the minority side because then you're seen as "racist " or "homophobic" or "intolerant" or whatever it's popular to not be these days
Laktos
Perkone
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-08-21 05:09:20 UTC
Transmaritanus wrote:
Xolani1990 wrote:

Equal treatment isn't special treatment. See, again, you're unable to relate because you've never grown up with the hurdles you encounter if you're minority. Ethnic minorities still often encounter hate crime. LGBT people still encounter institutionalised discrimination in the form of bullying in schools (which is endemic and teachers often fail to deal with), denial of legal recognition of relationships and the rights that go with it, and stigmatisation and ostracism in public up to and including the threat of violence if it's apparent you're a same-sex couple or a transsexual.
.



That's bullshit. People have been bullied and had hurdles long before this was ever an issue. People aren't going to accept other ideas if they're shoved down their throat. I'm a damn minority IRL and I hate how everyone bitches about how it's hard and whatever complaints are used as an excuse.

There's violence on both sides, it's just no one wants to ever bring the minority side because then you're seen as "racist " or "homophobic" or "intolerant" or whatever it's popular to not be these days


1. This isn't about bullying and having hurdles, it's about discrimination that is ingrained at a cultural level and has been for a long long time.

2. How is somebody forming a chat channel for Transexual people to communicate with each other in a safe environment "shoving ideas down other peoples throats".?

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Transmaritanus
Exergy.
#63 - 2012-08-21 06:30:30 UTC
I am the original Trans. Stop confusing people seeking my awesomeness with your life choices. You should change your channel to the "Trans, hero of Minmatar FW Foar Gret Justice" Appreciation Channel
Harlot Hohannson
Eye on Wang Poo
#64 - 2012-08-21 10:52:19 UTC
Another pea-brained Xenuria venture.

Why would I want to undergo an interview with this bozo just to get into a channel he has no relevance being in.
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#65 - 2012-08-21 12:21:23 UTC
two cents:

The channels of this game are for EVE online communication, and this crosses a morality line.

Not the morality of trans-gender, quite the opposite; but the segregation of individuals and exclusion of individuals based on either their belief system or physicality.

I do not think it is right to make special channels for anyone based on belief system or their physical appearance, and especially to exclude anyone who does not conform to a certain set of criteria.

You got away with the WGoE, barely, but this is getting out of hand.

If you’d like a for example, I’ll give you one. If there was a channel for people who speak German, then this makes sense as the channels in this game are a communication tool and finding players who speak the same language as you would be a great help.
The line would be drawn if there was a German-only channel, in that you must be German in origin, to join it and be ‘accepted’.

It literally staggers me that you don’t understand this.

Essentially, what I am saying is the ideology you have is warped.

You do NOT exclude people for any reason, because that is the kind of mind-set (at its core) that resulted in the deaths of 62 million people in World War 2, and, 100 million Native American Indians.

Create the channel by all means, but you have got to be realistic in the future as to what boundaries contradict the underlying essence of your intent.

A further discussion is required, I think overall, as to what and where the line is in computer games for overstepping the boundaries that bridge the real world and the game world, and the internal communication systems of a computer game should not be for the users to police and control to such ideologically perverted extremes.

In my humble opinion...

AK

This space for rent.
Laktos
Perkone
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-08-21 13:12:09 UTC
RE: Alleykat.

I agree with much of what you have said on a level of principle.I think though, that there has to be some perspective in this debate.

Drawing a relationship between restrictions on who can join a chat channel to the horrors of WW2 is slightly far-fetched and unfair.

And if we are going to say that the standard is zero discrimination in chat channels, then how far is that going to go. Are you then going to stop people from recruiting for a corp based on specific timezones or nationalities? etc.

I think there is an important distinction to be made about these things based on their intent. If the intent of the channel is exclusion, then this is usually a bad thing. But I don't believe this is the intent of the channel.

You also have to take into account the situation surrounding the members of the channel. To be a transexual at this time is a dangerous thing. I would imagine many people that identify themselves as such do not reveal their sexuality in normal channels or with corp members for fear of bullying and harassment, or even that their friends might not treat them the same as before. This channels stated intent is not to act as an elitist group based on exclusivity, but rather a group that is inclusive of transexual people. Unfortunately because of the attitude many people have towards transexuals there is a strong argument to be made that a group that wants to be a safe inclusive place for transexuals must be exclusive of non-transexuals to achieve its aim.

Of course in a perfect world the TGoE channel would be set public and everyone would be invited. We don't live in that world though, and so a policy of zero discrimination allowed under any circumstances is unrealistic and unfair to those who discriminate on entry to a group in order to create a place they feel comfortable to be themselves in.

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AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#67 - 2012-08-21 15:36:17 UTC
Laktos wrote:
RE: Alleykat.

I agree with much of what you have said on a level of principle.I think though, that there has to be some perspective in this debate.

Drawing a relationship between restrictions on who can join a chat channel to the horrors of WW2 is slightly far-fetched and unfair.

And if we are going to say that the standard is zero discrimination in chat channels, then how far is that going to go. Are you then going to stop people from recruiting for a corp based on specific timezones or nationalities? etc.

I think there is an important distinction to be made about these things based on their intent. If the intent of the channel is exclusion, then this is usually a bad thing. But I don't believe this is the intent of the channel.

You also have to take into account the situation surrounding the members of the channel. To be a transexual at this time is a dangerous thing. I would imagine many people that identify themselves as such do not reveal their sexuality in normal channels or with corp members for fear of bullying and harassment, or even that their friends might not treat them the same as before. This channels stated intent is not to act as an elitist group based on exclusivity, but rather a group that is inclusive of transexual people. Unfortunately because of the attitude many people have towards transexuals there is a strong argument to be made that a group that wants to be a safe inclusive place for transexuals must be exclusive of non-transexuals to achieve its aim.

Of course in a perfect world the TGoE channel would be set public and everyone would be invited. We don't live in that world though, and so a policy of zero discrimination allowed under any circumstances is unrealistic and unfair to those who discriminate on entry to a group in order to create a place they feel comfortable to be themselves in.


Name me one person in EVE-Online that has acted in a bullying or harrasing way towards transexuals, and your point has merit.

I suspect you won't and can't, because you're tripping over your own perceptions which if being tactful, are woefully outdated and out-of-touch that it's embarrasing to read.

Maybe I'm naive, or maybe I was raised correctly, but discriminating someone for the reasons you've stated is offensive to my demeanour.

Being honest, If I were in that channel, I might not like the people in it - not because of their trans-genderism, but because I might not like them as human beings. In your mind, this might be perceived as agressive behaviour towards trans-gender.

A little bit like...not liking someone in the workplace because they steal your parking space, but because they are homosexual, you have to not have a go at them?

What about in war? Am I allowed to shoot enemy soliders? What about if they are female? Is it sexist to shoot them? Or is it sexist to NOT shoot them? (women should be treated equally)

Look, you are simply blowing this all out of proportion - if someone in the channel acts like an idiot - kick them, end of story, job done, INCLUDING those who are transgender, because all human beings know what is right and wrong, the thing which defines us is the action we take in spite of this.

Clear?

AK

This space for rent.
Laktos
Perkone
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-08-21 16:37:03 UTC
AlleyKat wrote:
Name me one person in EVE-Online that has acted in a bullying or harrasing way towards transexuals, and your point has merit.


What? Do we even live in the same world? Many people are repulsed, offended and hateful towards someone who identifies as transexual and because of this they would discriminate against anyone they knew was transexual. I mean, ffs, look at the amount of discrimination that exists in our society against gays and lesbians, and you get some idea of what a lot (im not saying all) of transexuals would face, only ramped up to an even higher level.

I suppose next you are going to tell me that sexism and racism no longer exists and that I am out-dated for thinking so?

Quote:

Being honest, If I were in that channel, I might not like the people in it - not because of their trans-genderism, but because I might not like them as human beings. In your mind, this might be perceived as agressive behaviour towards trans-gender.

A little bit like...not liking someone in the workplace because they steal your parking space, but because they are homosexual, you have to not have a go at them?

What about in war? Am I allowed to shoot enemy soliders? What about if they are female? Is it sexist to shoot them? Or is it sexist to NOT shoot them? (women should be treated equally)


Nice job putting words in my mouth. Care to explain exactly why I would think these things. This whole time I have been talking about discriminiation against transexual people because of their transexuality.

Latest PVP Video: Perseverance

Sard Caid does not endorse this message.
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#69 - 2012-08-21 18:34:38 UTC
Laktos wrote:
AlleyKat wrote:
Name me one person in EVE-Online that has acted in a bullying or harrasing way towards transexuals, and your point has merit.


What? Do we even live in the same world? Many people are repulsed, offended and hateful towards someone who identifies as transexual and because of this they would discriminate against anyone they knew was transexual. I mean, ffs, look at the amount of discrimination that exists in our society against gays and lesbians, and you get some idea of what a lot (im not saying all) of transexuals would face, only ramped up to an even higher level.

I suppose next you are going to tell me that sexism and racism no longer exists and that I am out-dated for thinking so?

Quote:

Being honest, If I were in that channel, I might not like the people in it - not because of their trans-gender-ism, but because I might not like them as human beings. In your mind, this might be perceived as aggressive behavior towards trans-gender.

A little bit like...not liking someone in the workplace because they steal your parking space, but because they are homosexual, you have to not have a go at them?

What about in war? Am I allowed to shoot enemy soldiers? What about if they are female? Is it sexist to shoot them? Or is it sexist to NOT shoot them? (women should be treated equally)


Nice job putting words in my mouth. Care to explain exactly why I would think these things. This whole time I have been talking about discrimination against transsexual people because of their transexuality.


Someone made a false claim there was a bomb in my building - someones handbag needed detonating, ironically.

Sorry, I should have put analogously in front of some of those comments, but didn't think it would be necessary to do so. Shows what happens when you make assumptions, aye?

Again - I must ask you to name these racist, xenophobic or otherwise "people" that you claim to know exist in EVE Online, and then your argument has merit.

If not, then you need to rework your logic to suit something that has contention and until that fateful day, do NOT under any circumstances claim that certain people need protecting against bigotry that actually and genuinely exists when you have no evidence to prove it. You probably don't even have anything anecdotal.

I promise you this much: you get the names, and you get them banned within two clicks of the mouse - and if it was an open channel and someone behaved in the manner in which you believe is so prevalent in EVE Online; once again, they will be banned sharpish and that is your only guarantee.

Otherwise, you are constantly offending me - because I play EVE Online and have done for a very long time, and from what I can tell, you believe that I fall into this mythical existence that is only as real as your imagination.

Only thing that matters is this: when you are flying with other people, you do not care what they look like or what hairstyle they got, or what flavor of ice cream they like, you just care that someone is flying with you and they got your back as much as they know you got theirs.

That's it, washing my hands of this thread now - you want to form a bigot laden opinion of the world, that's your nightmare, not mine.

People are better than you give them credit for.

I pity you.

This space for rent.
Viribus
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#70 - 2012-08-21 20:59:20 UTC
Xenuria is always welcome in the PIZZAHOUSE

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Zach Donnell
Ghost-Busters
#71 - 2012-08-22 00:24:21 UTC
This thread is lol - The channel could have had much more credibility if it wasn't started by Xenuria. Sorry man, it's the truth.

(Lak is always down for debating social issues Lol)
Nex apparatu5
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#72 - 2012-08-22 18:08:57 UTC
So let's say a guy feels like they're actually a girl, and has some kind of surgery or pills or something to try to change that. Thinking and saying they're still a guy is an opinion, as is thinking and saying they're now a girl. Both are opinions, and both have equal merit. Now trying to force someone to accept that opinion if it differs from yours, now that's the real issue.
Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpaid Tactical Team
#73 - 2012-09-20 13:33:32 UTC
Sign me up! I have a long story, but in the wake of the aftermath of what I'd call an extremely enlightening experience, I am looking to connect with like-minded people.