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CCP doesn't keep error logs from server? The logs show nothing.

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Anslo
Scope Works
#121 - 2012-08-21 16:07:41 UTC
Any nul sec member bitching about anything is just trolling. Northern CoalitionDot here is just trying to get a rise, ignore his thread and it'll die the death it deserves. :)

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#122 - 2012-08-21 16:12:31 UTC
OP.. your stuff.. contract it my way

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#123 - 2012-08-21 17:03:32 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
We ALWAYS look for reasons to reimburse (it is the first thing we teach every new GM once we start training them in reimbursement 'always look for a reason to reimburse, any reason'), but we must do so fairly and make sure we treat everyone equally.


Seriously, are we talking about your employer CCP here? Or did you copy this out of the QA of a Microsoft product? Im just asking because i am playing since 6-7 years and the customer support is one of the worst i ever experienced especially about reimbursements. I don't want to make CCP look bad but i have logs of conversations with your employes that might show a different picture, sadly i am not allowed to post them here... but maybe i can paraphrase it:

I lost at least 5 ships to ingamebugs but got only 1 reimbursed after 10 mails and escalatiing to a senior GM. Then i got my ship back but not where it was destroyed... he put my multibillionmissionsship into 0.0 and i had to open "another" petition to get it where it got destroyed. Not to mention that the GM that replaced the ship just put my ship there without any explanation at all and deleted the petition afterwards.

All these bugs were fixed after a while, some with help of my bugreports, but "every" GM told me that the game is working as intended before. Obviously the game is working as intended as long as it is on your favour.

I consider your post as wishful thinking. Sorry. Oops
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#124 - 2012-08-21 17:04:14 UTC
Butzewutze wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
We ALWAYS look for reasons to reimburse (it is the first thing we teach every new GM once we start training them in reimbursement 'always look for a reason to reimburse, any reason'), but we must do so fairly and make sure we treat everyone equally.


Seriously, are we talking about your employer CCP here? Or did you copy this out of the QA of a Microsoft product? Im just asking because i am playing since 6-7 years and the customer support is one of the worst i ever experienced especially about reimbursements. I don't want to make CCP look bad but i have logs of conversations with your employes that might show a different picture, sadly i am not allowed to post them here... but maybe i can paraphrase it:

I lost at least 5 ships to ingamebugs but got only 1 reimbursed after 10 mails and escalatiing to a senior GM. Then i got my ship back but not where it was destroyed... he put my multibillionmissionsship into 0.0 and i had to open "another" petition to get it where it got destroyed. Not to mention that the GM that replaced the ship just put my ship there without any explanation at all and deleted the petition afterwards.

All these bugs were fixed after a while, some with help of my bugreports, but "every" GM told me that the game is working as intended before. Obviously the game is working as intended as long as it is on your favour.

I consider your post as wishful thinking. Sorry. Oops




Quoting myself just because posts often disappear "magically" in this forum.
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#125 - 2012-08-21 17:09:58 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
We do NOT reimburse losses from fleet engagements.


Again, this is so "unclear" that it screams. What does "fleet engagements" mean? 5 People? 15, 100? Do i have to be in the same system? 2 systems away? 5? What happens if i lose my ship and there are 2 fleets in the same system fighting each other without any participation from my side?

Some people would say that your reimbursement policy is "unclear" in purpose. Make's it easier eh? Roll
Wolf Kruol
Suicide Squad Gamma
#126 - 2012-08-21 17:24:29 UTC
Spot sorry for you loss dude. GMs are dotting the i's and crossing there t's. There following protocals. CCP devs need to fix these glitches.. Apparently there is no reinbursment for fleet ops battles when CCP server has a hickup thanks to those few bad apple players in eve who use exploits.

I to was fustrated when I couldn't jump through the gate when our fleet went the other day... No error message no nothing.

Having to log off and relog in hostle territory is fustrating.. Especially if someone looses a ship. I feel your fustration. I'm sure others here are too pissed with ccp bugs.

There is alot of bugs and I hope ccp wakes up and fixes them. Straight

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”
Jim Era
#127 - 2012-08-21 17:31:19 UTC
"Eve is a cold, harsh world"

"never fly what you can't afford to lose"

"deal with it"

Wat™
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#128 - 2012-08-21 17:40:14 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
In fleet fight on 08/19/2012, jumped through a gate, ship/client is unresponsive, although the battle is raging around me. An error box pops up with a big red stop sign that says "FATAL. Your character has repeatedly failed loading on the server.This indicates a fault and support personnel need to be notified. Please file a petition. " Read that carefully.

So i file the petition, andf guess what? CCP says the logs show nothing. They can't reimburse. They don't keep logs of that type of error message. I searched client side as well, and game logs contain nothing.

I am confused. Why the hell have a message that directly tells paying customers to file a petition, when all you do is ignore it? Even more, why have the ability to send the error message at all, if you keep no logs of the fault or the message itself?

I mean, they TOLD me to file the petition. Then they dismiss it. Enough is enough. CCP needs to start fixing these issues.



I've had it too, but I don't bother petitioning. i've posted about it in here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=140296, but I haven't been ablem to myself file a bug report because it alwyas happens in the middle of a fight, unexpectedly after jumping through a gate or bridge.

At 1st it was the whole "oerview not loading" thing, but lately (after I tinkered with my time settings) it get the overview to load, but ship won't move, modules won't respond and i have to relog to set things straight. I've gotten the "FATAL" error twice.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#129 - 2012-08-21 17:50:20 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
We ALWAYS look for reasons to reimburse.


Awesome!

GM Homonoia wrote:
It is not that we just don't reimburse, we don't act at all if we can help it.


Wait, what?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#130 - 2012-08-21 17:54:36 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
We ALWAYS look for reasons to reimburse.


Awesome!

GM Homonoia wrote:
It is not that we just don't reimburse, we don't act at all if we can help it.


Wait, what?


Context. Quote me again in the right context.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#131 - 2012-08-21 18:04:29 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
We ALWAYS look for reasons to reimburse.


Awesome!

GM Homonoia wrote:
It is not that we just don't reimburse, we don't act at all if we can help it.


Wait, what?


Context. Quote me again in the right context.


Ah, but still, made me laugh!!

Ok, I'll go look for the context. Way to spoil the fun.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#132 - 2012-08-21 18:05:44 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
We ALWAYS look for reasons to reimburse.


Awesome!

GM Homonoia wrote:
It is not that we just don't reimburse, we don't act at all if we can help it.


Wait, what?


Context. Quote me again in the right context.


We're talking about reimbursements right?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#133 - 2012-08-21 18:06:10 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
We ALWAYS look for reasons to reimburse (it is the first thing we teach every new GM once we start training them in reimbursement 'always look for a reason to reimburse, any reason'), but we must do so fairly and make sure we treat everyone equally.

It's entirely possible that people were lying about it, but when we were griefing incursions a LOT of people claimed to get some very expensive fits reimbursed on petition. If that's true, I have to wonder why GMs would see fit to reimburse ships lost to people making stupid mistakes, but not to people who lose ships under circumstances that are dubious at best. I'll say this much for certain: that would NOT be treating us equally if the former were reimbursed but not the latter.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
alittlebirdy
All Hail The Liopleurodon
#134 - 2012-08-21 18:45:23 UTC
Gm's so full of it it aint funny...

Why did the super get replaced... because CCP does whatever it wants... they been caught many times helping one side or the other...

The only time I could get replacement was funny enough when the logs DID show nothing (and should have showed something).

The last time I petitioned for replacement rofl. Most worthless reply ever... what I was told to do, was what the whole petition was about and how that method did NOT work and it was the reason for the lose.

After my reply of "maybe READ what I said" I was told "that works"

After sending in MORE screen shots saying "um no it does not" i was then told (after wasting my time) that I could have FAKED it...

Took 20min on the test server, sent them a vid link "test server is not TQ, issue might not be on TQ"

A+ support... moron never even said to file a bug report so I guess I was making up everything to get like **** back.

Fine you dont take user stuff... maybe the ****** should have been like "hmmm this seems to be a bug?"

Either way would not waste my time to file as CCP does not listen... (look at the UI)
Last time I was asked to but report something I was getting a 500 error... I reply to my petition saying I tired to but the server is giving me a 500, best I could tell it was on your end can you check for me so I stop wasting my time on something that is not working?

Reply was

"thanks for filing the bug report"

LOL. Ya they don't read or care about ****. For me to say I can't and get a "thanks" back is ******* lol.


tldr; wasting your time reading what the devs / GM's say. Keep in mind... actions not words... GM's have been caught ******* the players before... expect nothing more. Gm's don't care... it is easier to say "no" than yes (whos making sure they REALLY check every last thing?)


Hey don't forget too about when the server was so laggy KMed ships would pop up in space after DT rofl... you could run around and hope into empty supers that had KM's.
alittlebirdy
All Hail The Liopleurodon
#135 - 2012-08-21 18:48:10 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
We ALWAYS look for reasons to reimburse (it is the first thing we teach every new GM once we start training them in reimbursement 'always look for a reason to reimburse, any reason'), but we must do so fairly and make sure we treat everyone equally.

It's entirely possible that people were lying about it, but when we were griefing incursions a LOT of people claimed to get some very expensive fits reimbursed on petition. If that's true, I have to wonder why GMs would see fit to reimburse ships lost to people making stupid mistakes, but not to people who lose ships under circumstances that are dubious at best. I'll say this much for certain: that would NOT be treating us equally if the former were reimbursed but not the latter.



This is why you can not go over petitions with other people...

If CCP was legit they would ASK you to... after all the only thing it could do is help players get questions answered someone else already asked...

But since they do whatever they want... if those bears showed replacement... null bears would yell for replacement on "fleet fights" and the like...

So saying you can't go over petitions = can do whatever you want... and if anyone can PROVE CCP is full of ****... they broke the rules to do that so CCP can remove them...

CCP is dumb, but not THAT dumb after being caught and **** lol.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#136 - 2012-08-21 19:19:03 UTC
After experiencing "questionable" ship deaths (like waking up in-station after the ship explodes) and being given the response "nope, everything is normal on this end" after 2 weeks of waiting... and having corpies and alliancemates experience the same thing...

I've just come to expect that no matter how bad or obvious a "glitch" or "error" is I will never be reimbursed. No point in even trying. Just suck it up and move on.

How did you Veterans start?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#137 - 2012-08-21 19:24:30 UTC
I lost a ship and pod because the server wasn't, for whatever reason, receiving my command to jump when I was within jump range of a gate. Unfortunately this led to my being fired upon and my ship destroyed, and my significantly more valuable pod destroyed as well.
I petitioned it and didn't get reimbursed, as I suspected would happen since the nature of the glitch was such that of course the logs didn't show anything. If the server never received my command to jump, then CCP has no way of verifying that I actually tried to jump.
Anyway, I think the OP has a much better case than I did. I don't think it matters if he lost a billion isk ship or a million isk ship, it's the principle of being shown an error and told to contact support and then being told by the same support that there are no indications that anything went wrong. It's incredibly frustrating, no matter what the actual loss was. If there are any tears it's due to frustration in dealing with bugs, not the ship loss itself. I can understand that.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#138 - 2012-08-21 22:22:52 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:

This is exactly the type of case I was talking about. All we see is that no commands from your client reach the server. We have no idea if the client stopped responding or you walked away from your PC. This is happening on your PC, not our server, and thus we have no idea what is going on. Our logs are not a crystal ball that allow us to see stuff that doesn't happen on our server.



GM homonoia, remember what I said about speaking to customers like they don't know anything? You're doing it again. Do you really expect us to believe that CCP considers it possibile for the error message in question to be generated by going AFK, or an old PC freezing up? Really, we weren't born yesterday. Use legitimate explainations mate. Not that crap.

As for people wasting their time trolling with: "don't fly what you can't afford to lose etc etc", our alliance has a great SRP (reimbursement) program, and the ship in question has already been covered under that program. I have a small stockpile of CTA ships and if you care enough to reply, then you can care enough to look at eve-kill further and see that I was back in another exact same ship killing 10 minutes later. What alliance I belong to, What ship it was, these have no bearing on the issue.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#139 - 2012-08-21 22:45:00 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
The logs show us a lot of things. Without looking into this myself (in other words, I don't know what was said exactly, I am going solely on what is being said in this thread) you were likely denied reimbursement because of section 1.5 of our reimbursement policies:

"Any losses of any kind resulting from a large-scale player engagement are not covered by this reimbursement policy."

**snip**


I didn't see anywhere where the OP said it was a large scale player engagement. He just said the battle was raging around him - that could have been 20 ships, or less, or more...

So what's a large-scale engagement? And how does the deployment of TiDi impact this CCP get out of jail free card now?

And if that is why he was denied - then the @&^#$%@& petition handler should have stated that along with whatever the logs didn't show.
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2012-08-21 22:56:16 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
The logs show us a lot of things. Without looking into this myself (in other words, I don't know what was said exactly, I am going solely on what is being said in this thread) you were likely denied reimbursement because of section 1.5 of our reimbursement policies:

"Any losses of any kind resulting from a large-scale player engagement are not covered by this reimbursement policy."

**snip**


I didn't see anywhere where the OP said it was a large scale player engagement. He just said the battle was raging around him - that could have been 20 ships, or less, or more...

So what's a large-scale engagement? And how does the deployment of TiDi impact this CCP get out of jail free card now?

And if that is why he was denied - then the @&^#$%@& petition handler should have stated that along with whatever the logs didn't show.




To CCP a "large scale player engagement" is defined by something breaking, if something breaks it was a large player engagement and not their fault. Welcome to "the logs show nothing".. i mean welcome to EVE online. The only game in existence with error messages directing you to contact a GM so they can tell you to **** off because they don't record instances of errors like that.

The LULZ Boat.