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Ore Imbalance

Author
Herr Hammer Draken
#61 - 2012-08-20 05:47:00 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
^^: Read that post Pipa hit a bunch of good things.
Pipa Porto wrote:

Anyway, the Nullsec ores are cheap because there are still massive Drone poop era mineral stockpiles being drawn down.


Tenris Anis wrote:

La Nariz wrote:

You aren't addressing any of my points so I assume you aren't capable of rational thought bit I'll throw you a bone.
The fact that nullsec mining is far less profitable than highsec mining is proof that there is something terribly wrong with the risk : reward for highsec mining. Highsec reward needs a nerf and/or nullsec reward needs a buff.


That is a false-cause fallacy of yours. The fact that null sec mining is far less profitable than high sec mining means just that high-sec mining is more profitable.
Is it really the risk vs reward questions? Than why the sandbox does not solve the problem? People seem to be fine to mine for that price. Are you calling all null sec miners idiots? All of them?

Is the risk really higher in well secured systems with only blues within 20 jumps for nullbears?

Maybe the problem is that because the risk is low, the cost are low and you can do it via botting and afk "playing" it is to popular in low sec to mine those "valuable" resources. Seems at least to me more realistic reason why miners produce more of something than there is demand for it.

If you are really, really pissed about this I strongly recommend you to hunt more null sec miners to decrease supply, this will increase risk and reward of null sec mining just fine.


That fallacy thing you really should research it before you decide to try and use it Roll.

It is a risk : reward problem. In highsec can you be hot dropped? In highsec can you be bubbled? In highsec can roaming gangs comprised of people who have not wardeced you shoot you without concord retaliation? In high sec do you have to use jump freighters/rorquals to move your minerals/ore? In highsec do you have battleship rats in the belts/sites? In highsec can you be bombed? In highsec do you have to use ridiculous methods that CCP disdains (gun compression) to move your minerals in a less pain inducing format? In highsec do you have to interact with any other group of rival players to guarantee a modicum of safety? In highsec are you required to run intel channels to operate efficiently?

The answer to all of the above is no and they are all good reason why the risk : reward dynamic of nullsec mining is way off balance when compared to highsec mining. The risk for nullsec mining is way higher than the reward and the risk for highsec mining is way lower than the reward.

Did it ever cross your mind that CCP designs the game but is not omniscient and does not see all of the consequences of their changes right away? CCP makes mistakes (often) when making alterations and this risk : reward problem is a huge example of that. Furthermore the "sandbox" does nothing it is an abstract concept used to define the bounds of operating in the game, it cannot fix anything.

The only thing I'm willing to call nullsec miners is lazy and that's because they are not actively campagining against the total BS that is the high reward and nearly non-existant risk of highsec mining.

I should address this too because I know there will be whining about it. The "sea of blue" that is constantly whined about requires massive social effort to maintain and is crucial to being a sov holding alliance in nullsec. Whining about "sea's of blue" is basically screaming NERF MAKING FRIENDS! Highsec people are perfectly capable of creating intel channels and "sea's of blue" around them as well but it requires effort and that seems to be something that highsec people will not have anything to do with.


Gee wiz so all of this terrible stuff exsists only in null then how on earth does SO MUCH supply of null sec ore get into high sec to way over saturate the market? I mean shouldn't more than half of the null sec ore get wiped out enroute to high sec and never arrive? Hmm seems like the goons have a new mission instead of hulkaggedon they need to control the flow of null sec ores out of null sec. I have a hunch that would solve all of your whinning I mean problems.

Oh and by the way your hulkaggedon served only to increase high sec ore prices so as to make that reward higher in high sec. Your own policy works against you in this case. I suggest the goons are in a position to effect their own cure for this problem and do not need CCP to fix anything. Supply and demand working as intended. Emergent game play solve your own problem you have the tools you need to do this.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-08-20 13:39:07 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
[quote=Dystopia Arkaral]



Highsec mining logistics requires:
1. Clicking the autopilot button.

There is way more risk in the nullsec portion than in the highsec portion which is as it should be. The problem comes in that the highsec portion carries far more reward than the nullsec portion.


The added difficulty of null sec mining to me looks more like a higher barrier of entry than anything. Once the "sea of blue", heauling/compresssion and the bigger rats handling are up and running, it looks like high sec mining. The only current problem with the rewardd seems to be a supply/demand problem. Trit is slowly going down since the patch tho which made veld drop under pyro in isk/m3. If you want higher reward from the null sec mining, you will have to "fix" the supply/demand so either arrange for more ship to be built or prevent people from mining in null.

More ship being built would potentially raise the reward of null mining but also high as building ship will always require tons of high sec ore. So get miners out of null if you don't want high sec to also gain from your work.
Shana Matika
Perkone
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-08-21 11:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Shana Matika
Just to say "this is more valuable cause of risk" is rather wrong...

The real problem in my eyes is the mineral mix needed for modules/ships.

ABC Ore is everything but rare - all Null-Mining is counted as "useless" as long as there is no abc in the belt/grav...

Let's take the calculation for a Megathron BS:

Tritanium: 7.387.296
Pyerite: 1.847.509
Mexallon: 463.036
Isogen: 115.542
Nocxium: 28.843
Zydrine: 6.843
Megacyte: 2.107

Or in other words: 89,5 m³ Zydrine/Megacyte and 98.422,26 m³ of all the other minerals.

To get all the Megacyte and Zydrine all you need is about 42.000 m³ Crokite and 20.000 m³ Arkonor or plain 65.000 Bistot.
Now to cover the other, on paper less valuable, Ore (rounded +- always best content just for the one mineral per ore (not counting +5 and +10% versions)):

Tritanium: 246.000 m³ Veldspar (443.000m³ Scordite)
Pyerite: 222.000 m³ Scordite (421.000 m³ Plagioclase)
Mexallon: 211.000 m³ Plagioclase (288.000 m³ Kernite / 894.000 m³ Jaspet)
Isogen: 113.000 m³ Omber (144.000 Kerinte)
Nocxium: 102.000 m³ Hemorphite (112.000 m³Jaspet)

For the case you've the option to mine just the "Best in Comparsion" Oretype you would still need 500.000 - 1.000.000 m³ Ore to cover the "Common" Minerals while you just need plain 65.000 m³ of Bistot Ore to cover the Rare Minerals Zydrine and Megacyte.

And everybody compare the value by time spent - as many say: Nullsec is not much more or less dangerous then highsec (if more or less is up to you - I won't argue about this). This leads to one final truth: ABC is less valuable then any other ore!

Solution? Decrease megacyte and zydrine in the ore or add common minerals to ABC (more then just a few hundreds)? Maybe increase the mineral compression ratio for compressed Ore to easy null->highsec transport? Reduce compressed velspar unit volume by factor 10 for example (rather decrease compressed ore blocks so no "minerals from thin air"-Problem)?
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#64 - 2012-08-21 16:06:49 UTC
You mean Goons declaring war on all highsec miners had negative consequences for everyone in nullsec too? Wow, that was impossible to forsee.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-08-21 16:52:58 UTC
Ana Vyr wrote:
You mean Goons declaring war on all highsec miners had negative consequences for everyone in nullsec too? Wow, that was impossible to forsee.


Miners in high sec who dind't get ganked had no negative effect at all...
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2012-08-21 19:09:19 UTC
@Random npc alts: Read that post I made again it answers any of your questions and refutes any of your points. Try putting some effort into your posts instead of howling "GOONS GOONS GOONS!"


Frostys Virpio wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
[quote=Dystopia Arkaral]

Highsec mining logistics requires:
1. Clicking the autopilot button.

There is way more risk in the nullsec portion than in the highsec portion which is as it should be. The problem comes in that the highsec portion carries far more reward than the nullsec portion.


The added difficulty of null sec mining to me looks more like a higher barrier of entry than anything. Once the "sea of blue", heauling/compresssion and the bigger rats handling are up and running, it looks like high sec mining. The only current problem with the rewardd seems to be a supply/demand problem. Trit is slowly going down since the patch tho which made veld drop under pyro in isk/m3. If you want higher reward from the null sec mining, you will have to "fix" the supply/demand so either arrange for more ship to be built or prevent people from mining in null.

More ship being built would potentially raise the reward of null mining but also high as building ship will always require tons of high sec ore. So get miners out of null if you don't want high sec to also gain from your work.


Except its not a barrier to entry its a cost like POS fuel, it needs to be paid constantly. Everything you listed requires a lot of maintenance and is prone to failure hence it being more risky to mine in nullsec versus mining in highsec. The supply/demand thing is a tough one to handle before all those stores of minerals Pipa noted about are depleted. Requiring more Zydrine, Megacyte and Morphite for stuff seems like a good way to increase the reward. I also like the idea of changing what the ore refines to by reducing minerals received from highsec ores and increasing them from null/low exclusive ores as well as adding some low ends to more ore types. Adjusting those two things could easily solve the reward imbalance without adding more risk to highsec or nullsec/lowsec.

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Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-08-21 20:03:42 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


Except its not a barrier to entry its a cost like POS fuel, it needs to be paid constantly. Everything you listed requires a lot of maintenance and is prone to failure hence it being more risky to mine in nullsec versus mining in highsec. The supply/demand thing is a tough one to handle before all those stores of minerals Pipa noted about are depleted. Requiring more Zydrine, Megacyte and Morphite for stuff seems like a good way to increase the reward. I also like the idea of changing what the ore refines to by reducing minerals received from highsec ores and increasing them from null/low exclusive ores as well as adding some low ends to more ore types. Adjusting those two things could easily solve the reward imbalance without adding more risk to highsec or nullsec/lowsec.


If mining in null is really that much harder than high sec, the price will move back to a different ratio without any change in manufacturing cost. The only problem is to know when the stockpile will dry out and how big the price difference will be. Is there a way to use high minerals without raising the demand for lower one? I don't know any personally so speeding up the bleeding might be impossible.
Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2012-08-21 20:20:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Not to mention, refining in 0.0 REQUIRES station access - which most people cannot get with small mining corps - but they can in high-sec.

Imagine if sov were dictated by how much ore was mined in a system.

Further imagine if 0.0 stations were the only place to get a particular advanced kind of PVP ship.

PVPers would have to justify their existence first to gain access to get it.

(not the best example, but u get the point).

.

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-08-21 20:22:37 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Revolution Rising wrote:
Not to mention, refining in 0.0 REQUIRES station access - which most people cannot get with small mining corps - but they can in high-sec.

Imagine if sov were dictated by how much ore was mined in a system.

Further imagine if 0.0 stations were the only place to get a particular advanced kind of PVP ship.

PVPers would have to justify their existence first to gain access to get it.

(not the best example, but u get the point).


Sov is a whole different screwed up mechanic that is desperately in need of fixing. That does bring up the point that many highsec refineries are so much better than any of the nullsec ones. You can easily get 100% refine in highsec but have to go to great effort to do it in nullsec and you have the risk of all that effort being destroyed. Highsec refineries shouldn't be able to get 100% refine as easily and the taxes should be higher sort of a parallel to highsec PI.


Frostys Virpio wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


Except its not a barrier to entry its a cost like POS fuel, it needs to be paid constantly. Everything you listed requires a lot of maintenance and is prone to failure hence it being more risky to mine in nullsec versus mining in highsec. The supply/demand thing is a tough one to handle before all those stores of minerals Pipa noted about are depleted. Requiring more Zydrine, Megacyte and Morphite for stuff seems like a good way to increase the reward. I also like the idea of changing what the ore refines to by reducing minerals received from highsec ores and increasing them from null/low exclusive ores as well as adding some low ends to more ore types. Adjusting those two things could easily solve the reward imbalance without adding more risk to highsec or nullsec/lowsec.


If mining in null is really that much harder than high sec, the price will move back to a different ratio without any change in manufacturing cost. The only problem is to know when the stockpile will dry out and how big the price difference will be. Is there a way to use high minerals without raising the demand for lower one? I don't know any personally so speeding up the bleeding might be impossible.


Or like many other features in game nullsec mining is horribly broken and requires CCP intervention to fix. I think CCP knows that the stockpiles are still there like Pipa said and are waiting to see the effects of those being depleted before they move to do anything. I don't believe it is possible to speed up the depletion so its one of those time will tell deals. What would do it would be to redo all of the material costs of ships, increasing certain minerals but that could have other adverse effects that CCP probably wants to avoid. What I want to see though is some serious dev attention to each sec's risk:reward dynamic, but that's a different thread so I'm going to stop here.

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Idris Helion
Doomheim
#70 - 2012-08-21 20:26:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Idris Helion
Revolution Rising wrote:
Not to mention, refining in 0.0 REQUIRES station access - which most people cannot get with small mining corps - but they can in high-sec.


Not true. You can install a refining module on a POS. It's at best 75% (I think) and it takes time to complete (unlike an NPC station where refining is instant). Lots of corps out in the willywags of EVE use POS refineries. In spite of the downsides of POS refining, it's preferable to trying to get into a perma-camped/bubbled station.

EDIT: Lots of null miners also depend on Rorquals to compress the ore to ship back to hisec for refining. It's been awhile since I've lived out that way, so I'm not sure if POS refineries are still used all that much.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2012-08-21 20:54:44 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:
Not to mention, refining in 0.0 REQUIRES station access - which most people cannot get with small mining corps - but they can in high-sec.


Not true. You can install a refining module on a POS. It's at best 75% (I think) and it takes time to complete (unlike an NPC station where refining is instant). Lots of corps out in the willywags of EVE use POS refineries. In spite of the downsides of POS refining, it's preferable to trying to get into a perma-camped/bubbled station.

EDIT: Lots of null miners also depend on Rorquals to compress the ore to ship back to hisec for refining. It's been awhile since I've lived out that way, so I'm not sure if POS refineries are still used all that much.


This is another good point I had forgotten about that refining module. Highsec refineries should be capped at some number below that or have it work out to that being the max amount with the rest being taxed.

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Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2012-08-21 21:27:29 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:
Not to mention, refining in 0.0 REQUIRES station access - which most people cannot get with small mining corps - but they can in high-sec.


Not true. You can install a refining module on a POS. It's at best 75% (I think) and it takes time to complete (unlike an NPC station where refining is instant). Lots of corps out in the willywags of EVE use POS refineries. In spite of the downsides of POS refining, it's preferable to trying to get into a perma-camped/bubbled station.

EDIT: Lots of null miners also depend on Rorquals to compress the ore to ship back to hisec for refining. It's been awhile since I've lived out that way, so I'm not sure if POS refineries are still used all that much.


It is debatable as to whether POS refining is useful in wormholes where logistics is hard.
It is laughable to even bring it up with regard to 0.0.

If you are using a POS refinery module in 0.0 you're failing somewhere terribly.

.

Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2012-08-21 21:31:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
La Nariz wrote:
This is another good point I had forgotten about that refining module. Highsec refineries should be capped at some number below that or have it work out to that being the max amount with the rest being taxed.


So, you're obviously NOT a miner.

Thanks for the clarification.

It's pretty obvious that CCP wishes to change POS to modular, Stations to destructible.

So why even have 2 different systems?

Why not have 1 structure, and have all the modules available to POS instead.
POS with offices.
POS with markets.
POS with refineries.
POS with clone facilities.
POS with proper refineries.
POS with laboratories and factories.
POS with refitting and repair services.

It is about time this happened.

It would help the current deficiencies in wormholes, it could rejuvenate low-sec, it would be a HUGE isk sink for large alliances that wanted to spend hundreds of billions on their "Main space station" - only to have it destroyed.

It would also allow CCP to have only *1* structure they need to develop instead of 2.

It could easily have low monetary amount to start off, but the modules cost more as you add more of them - so by the 3rd or 4th refinery module you're spending 5b a module instead of 500m that the first one cost you.

.

Pipa Porto
#74 - 2012-08-21 21:34:58 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:

It would help the current deficiencies in wormholes, it could rejuvenate low-sec, it would be a HUGE isk sink for large alliances that wanted to spend hundreds of billions on their "Main space station" - only to have it destroyed..



Unless you're suggesting that POS and Station components revert back to being NPC seeded items, you don't know what an ISK sink is.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2012-08-21 21:38:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Pipa Porto wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:

It would help the current deficiencies in wormholes, it could rejuvenate low-sec, it would be a HUGE isk sink for large alliances that wanted to spend hundreds of billions on their "Main space station" - only to have it destroyed..



Unless you're suggesting that POS and Station components revert back to being NPC seeded items, you don't know what an ISK sink is.


wtf?

An isk sink is where you remove isk from the game, either through destruction or taxation.

This has both of those elements which were you referring to ?

Someone comes alone and destroyes a 200b isk spacestation, that's what I call a big isk sink.

Someone can't afford a 200b isk station but can afford 5b, then there are higher taxes to deal with, even if you have the same functionality. Another isk sink.

Pretty sure I know what an isk sink is, I also know what an irrelevant troll is, do you ?

.

Cap James Tkirk
Capsuleer Outfitters
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#76 - 2012-08-21 21:40:37 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:

It would help the current deficiencies in wormholes, it could rejuvenate low-sec, it would be a HUGE isk sink for large alliances that wanted to spend hundreds of billions on their "Main space station" - only to have it destroyed..



Unless you're suggesting that POS and Station components revert back to being NPC seeded items, you don't know what an ISK sink is.


wtf?

An isk sink is where you remove isk from the game, either through destruction or taxation.

This has both of those elements which were you referring to ?

Someone comes alone and destroyes a 200b isk spacestation, that's what I call a big isk sink.

Someone can't afford a 200b isk station but can afford 5b, then there are higher taxes to deal with, even if you have the same functionality. Another isk sink.

Pretty sure I know what an isk sink is, I also know what an irrelevant troll is, do you ?



this is not a sinkas the money will be moving from player to player unless like pipa stated it is npc seeded
Pipa Porto
#77 - 2012-08-21 21:43:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Revolution Rising wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:

It would help the current deficiencies in wormholes, it could rejuvenate low-sec, it would be a HUGE isk sink for large alliances that wanted to spend hundreds of billions on their "Main space station" - only to have it destroyed..



Unless you're suggesting that POS and Station components revert back to being NPC seeded items, you don't know what an ISK sink is.


wtf?

An isk sink is where you remove isk from the game, either through destruction or taxation.

This has both of those elements which were you referring to ?

Someone comes alone and destroyes a 200b isk spacestation, that's what I call a big isk sink.

Someone can't afford a 200b isk station but can afford 5b, then there are higher taxes to deal with, even if you have the same functionality. Another isk sink.

Pretty sure I know what an isk sink is, I also know what an irrelevant troll is, do you ?


Someone destroys a 200b Spacestation, that sinks materials, not ISK, unless the station was seeded by NPCs.

The ISK still circulates, since you bought the mats from another player.

The 1% transaction costs aren't sizable enough to matter.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2012-08-21 21:44:44 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:

It would help the current deficiencies in wormholes, it could rejuvenate low-sec, it would be a HUGE isk sink for large alliances that wanted to spend hundreds of billions on their "Main space station" - only to have it destroyed..



Unless you're suggesting that POS and Station components revert back to being NPC seeded items, you don't know what an ISK sink is.


wtf?

An isk sink is where you remove isk from the game, either through destruction or taxation.

This has both of those elements which were you referring to ?

Someone comes alone and destroyes a 200b isk spacestation, that's what I call a big isk sink.

Someone can't afford a 200b isk station but can afford 5b, then there are higher taxes to deal with, even if you have the same functionality. Another isk sink.

Pretty sure I know what an isk sink is, I also know what an irrelevant troll is, do you ?


Someone destroys a 200b Spacestation, that sinks materials, not ISK, unless the station was seeded by NPCs.

The ISK still circulates, since you bought the mats from another player.

The 1% transaction costs aren't sizable enough to matter.

.

Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2012-08-21 21:50:05 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:

It would help the current deficiencies in wormholes, it could rejuvenate low-sec, it would be a HUGE isk sink for large alliances that wanted to spend hundreds of billions on their "Main space station" - only to have it destroyed..



Unless you're suggesting that POS and Station components revert back to being NPC seeded items, you don't know what an ISK sink is.


wtf?

An isk sink is where you remove isk from the game, either through destruction or taxation.

This has both of those elements which were you referring to ?

Someone comes alone and destroyes a 200b isk spacestation, that's what I call a big isk sink.

Someone can't afford a 200b isk station but can afford 5b, then there are higher taxes to deal with, even if you have the same functionality. Another isk sink.

Pretty sure I know what an isk sink is, I also know what an irrelevant troll is, do you ?


Someone destroys a 200b Spacestation, that sinks materials, not ISK, unless the station was seeded by NPCs.

The ISK still circulates, since you bought the mats from another player.

The 1% transaction costs aren't sizable enough to matter.



Noone mentioned a transaction cost, it's all examples. A level 1 market module might have a 10% cost or more or less. It would depend and CCP would be the final arbiter of the system, not you or I. Therefore it's a silly thing to speculate about.

Making a modular building can mean making a system of POS where the more of a particular type of module you have - the better the outcomes are for you, but also the more costly the entire procedure is.

Regarding the Station BPO's, they would need to be seeded on market as they are at the moment for all modules - I'd imagine, however again - that'd be CCP's call.

I'm just suggesting a single point of failure for CCP for development and a single type of structure for us to mess with.

Take a look at any sandbox game out there - player housing is one of the foremost mechanics people wish to see in games. Here however it has taken on a draconian feel to the way it has been implemented - which if CCP wishes to look at it - now is the time to ask for changes that would be beyond just "what it looks like".

.

Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2012-08-21 21:51:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Pipa Porto wrote:
Someone destroys a 200b Spacestation, that sinks materials, not ISK, unless the station was seeded by NPCs.

The ISK still circulates, since you bought the mats from another player.

The 1% transaction costs aren't sizable enough to matter.


If I buy 200b worth of materials to build a 200b isk spacestation - and it gets blown up - that's 200b of isk removed from the game.

Please tell me how that's not an isk sink ?

If CCP wishes to just "stop isk flowing into the game" they can at any time remove the plex system lol

.