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CCP doesn't keep error logs from server? The logs show nothing.

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SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#61 - 2012-08-21 12:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: SpotlessBlade
@ Serena

They take the time to give half-assed answers. Then when placating doesn't work, they backpedal and say they can't get involved. As for the "rule" it is insane. They can't reimburse losses that happen when playing the game? That's absurd.
Serena Serene
Heretic University
#62 - 2012-08-21 12:35:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Serena Serene
There was no "getting involved" from the start. Only information of what might have happened. I don't see a half-assed answer, but the pointing out of a possibility, while admitting that it's only a possibility (and later advice how to get more definite answers).

I for one think that's -tons- better than GMs not posting at all if they don't have to, which happens on most other game-forums I've seen so far, and which you're actively working on introducing here, too, with your attitude.

As for the rule: I don't understand it myself. You could try to ask for the reason, instead of raging over it, though. Apparently there seem to be things to consider in large-scale engagements I don't think of. Would be interesting to know what.

Edit: fixed typo .. keep the rest ^-^
Rutger Janssen
Chanuur
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2012-08-21 12:38:49 UTC
From devlog 727:

Quote:
Under circumstances where lag is involved or elusive bugs that are difficult to establish as the deciding factor, CCP cannot justify passing judgment on who should have won or who should have lost. While a problem such as the one in focus here is known to affect some players in certain situations, the evidence available in server-side logs, when available at all, can be haphazard and arbitrary.   As such, intervention on CCP's part would risk being arbitrary as well.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#64 - 2012-08-21 12:41:51 UTC
connection issues, ISP issues, a hop/node falling over somewhere on the internet, a user's PC crashing or losing connection, a client error or bug, etc

Hm, is it just my uneducated self, or does large fleet engagements might go hand in hand with these issues?

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#65 - 2012-08-21 12:42:35 UTC
Serena Serene wrote:
There was no "getting involved" from the start. Only information of what might have happened. I don't see a half-assed answer, but the pointing out of a possibility, while admitting that it's only a possibility (and later advice how to get more definite answers).

...........

As for the rule: I don't understand it myself. You could try to ask for the reason, instead of raging over it, though. Apparently there seem to be things to consider in large-scale engagements I don't think of. Would be interesting to know what.




1) the getting involved that upsets me is when the only possibility they don't mention is that they could be wrong.
2) The rule about not reimbursing losses during PVP in a PVP game is nuts. Their server had an issue, regardless of what aspect of the game I was involved in, it doesn't change that. The GM even said that the error I received is a reimbursable issue, but because there was fleet engagement, they won't.
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2012-08-21 12:43:24 UTC
rodyas wrote:
connection issues, ISP issues, a hop/node falling over somewhere on the internet, a user's PC crashing or losing connection, a client error or bug, etc

Hm, is it just my uneducated self, or does large fleet engagements might go hand in hand with these issues?



Yes, it's just you. Again, i staid connected to the server, no disconnect.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#67 - 2012-08-21 12:49:01 UTC
You know what isn't going to help your case?

A little note on your petition escalation going "This guy is an annoying ****, and freaks out at legitimate help."
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2012-08-21 12:50:17 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
You know what isn't going to help your case?

A little note on your petition escalation going "This guy is an annoying ****, and freaks out at legitimate help."



Lol at your definition of legitimate help.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#69 - 2012-08-21 12:51:20 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
You know what isn't going to help your case?

A little note on your petition escalation going "This guy is an annoying ****, and freaks out at legitimate help."



Lol at your definition of legitimate help.


"Here is a list of what could have happened. You should escalate this, in my opinion" Is about as good as you are going to get on a forum post.
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2012-08-21 12:53:05 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
SpotlessBlade wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
You know what isn't going to help your case?

A little note on your petition escalation going "This guy is an annoying ****, and freaks out at legitimate help."



Lol at your definition of legitimate help.


"Here is a list of what could have happened. You should escalate this, in my opinion" Is about as good as you are going to get on a forum post.


And once again, i will point out that the only possibility that GM didn't include is that CCP was to blame on the server side. They would never consider that. It's just too easy to say "maybe you disconnected from the interweb"
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#71 - 2012-08-21 12:56:41 UTC
^ So this is mostly a personal vendetta then anything else?

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#72 - 2012-08-21 12:57:25 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
SpotlessBlade wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
You know what isn't going to help your case?

A little note on your petition escalation going "This guy is an annoying ****, and freaks out at legitimate help."



Lol at your definition of legitimate help.


"Here is a list of what could have happened. You should escalate this, in my opinion" Is about as good as you are going to get on a forum post.


And once again, i will point out that the only possibility that GM didn't include is that CCP was to blame on the server side. They would never consider that. It's just too easy to say "maybe you disconnected from the interweb"


CCP admits to server side issues all the time. They just dont reimburse based on lag based issues as mentioned above.

Seriously, dude, go take a breath, or a short walk. Come back when you aren't seething.

Get into another ship and do something else for a while.

Do anything other than what you are doing right now, which is making yourself look like an angry, impatient idiot. You can be better than that! I believe in you!
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2012-08-21 13:03:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi
I frankly think CCP is rather lazy when it comes to actually checking the logs for errors and comparing them to a customers complaint.

I ran "Maze" one day with some friends and my tengu got trapped in the last room of the Maze right smack in between all 12 of the jump gates that were arranged in a circle. At the time this was a 1 billion ISK ship. I could not get my ship to move out...it simply wobbled between the gates. Obviously the rats killed me because I was practically sitting still and taking full damage from missiles and guns.

I filed a petition. Of course the logs show nothing. And yet a week later the Maze was updated and all the gates were spread out, no longer in a circle. That was a big middle finger from CCP to me.

This was not a client side error...this was not an internet connection issue. This was a bug, blatant and clear, a bug with the game that I fell victim to. Yet...the logs...they show nothing.

To be honest I don't recall anybody ever filing a petition for a bug and getting an answer back with anything but the most asinine, generic and infuriating answer of "the logs show nothing".

EDIT: By the way...my job is to research errors in programs through an Oracle database. I do it all day long using SQL. Everything clicked and typed is in the database and can be found one way or another. I can't imagine EVE's database having anything less.

I will say that I had an interaction with CCP that went very well in that my character would change after saving it in the character creator. The problem was corrected by Karkur even though they found no evidence of the error being on CCP's end.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#74 - 2012-08-21 13:03:56 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
CCP admits to server side issues all the time. They just dont reimburse based on lag based issues as mentioned above.!


Are we talking about different CCPs?
Also who said there was lag? I had zero lag and zero TiDi, so why add things into it that didn't happen?
As for being mad, I am less mad than determined. I may have petitioned more than half a dozen times or more when I thought I had a case, and each time the Gms replied and I listened because the issue was most likely, client side. This is an obvious case of server sided error and they are just sticking to their copy/paste replies.

Every single person i know in eve has had the "sorry can't help" response from CCP, and felt cheated when they legitimately had a reason to petition. I am willing to bet you have too.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#75 - 2012-08-21 13:07:12 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
CCP admits to server side issues all the time. They just dont reimburse based on lag based issues as mentioned above.!


Are we talking about different CCPs?
Also who said there was lag? I had zero lag and zero TiDi, so why add things into it that didn't happen?
As for being mad, I am less mad than determined. I may have petitioned more than half a dozen times or more when I thought I had a case, and each time the Gms replied and I listened because the issue was most likely, client side. This is an obvious case of server sided error and they are just sticking to their copy/paste replies.

Every single person i know in eve has had the "sorry can't help" response from CCP, and felt cheated when they legitimately had a reason to petition. I am willing to bet you have too.


I've actually been quite happy with my responses to petitions so I don't know what to tell you, mang.
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#76 - 2012-08-21 13:10:48 UTC  |  Edited by: SpotlessBlade
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
I've actually been quite happy with my responses to petitions so I don't know what to tell you, mang.


In which case, good on you. I can honestly say that I have had many positive interactions with CCP, and always make a point of being courteous and thanking them for their help. However when they take the lazy way out of an issue, shouldn't we be allowed to call them on it?
Rutger Janssen
Chanuur
Goonswarm Federation
#77 - 2012-08-21 13:14:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Rutger Janssen
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
To be honest I don't recall anybody ever filing a petition for a bug and getting an answer back with anything but the most asinine, generic and infuriating answer of "the logs show nothing".

I did. i changed the ship to ivent before changing the input hangar. This reset the ship to invent. At first it was denied saying it was not a bug but after I pointed out that my bug report was attached to a known defect, the copies were changed. this was back in 2009, bug was fixed in alberto 2012
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#78 - 2012-08-21 13:14:40 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
I've actually been quite happy with my responses to petitions so I don't know what to tell you, mang.


In which case, good on you. I can honestly say that I have had many positive interactions with CCP, and always make a point of being courteous and thanking them for their help. However when they take the lazy way out of an issue, shouldn't we be allowed to call them on it?


They aren't taking the lazy way out of the issue. You asked for it to be escalated, and it has been. It will be dealt with. You just have to be patient. Maybe the Senior GM can tell you something the one you dealt with couldn't. Coming onto the forums and throwing a temper tantrum is not going to help your case.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2012-08-21 13:17:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Awesome, finally a thread where i can rant about QA/bughunters/GMs.

Related:

Every time i get podded there's this huge empty dock i'm in and when i want to undock,
the client tells me something about blabla and that i should contact customer support ...
... then my pod shows up correctly and i undock.

Customer support *my ass*, really !


If you wanted to be treated like good people, you should behave like good people.


As you are not ... see above.


Wtf am i talking about:

The fact that whenever i post a bug/exploit i either need to explain it several times
or i simply don't get any feedback regarding what you did with it. Nothing. Nada.


Now ... and this again is related to the thread ...


As you give me the feeling that you don't care about me ...
... about my good share of trying to make the game a better place ...

... why the hell should i care about you ?


See ?


The End.


(Imagine nobody gave a rats ass about your error messages because you simply don't deserve to be contacted)
(because you only show that you don't give a damn ! This ain't about me, you're behaving this way with everybody !)


PS:
I've checked my bugreports. The two gameplay-bugs/exploits (at least one critical!) i've found haven't been filtered yet.
What does that mean ? Does it mean that nobody looked at them ? Does it mean they were looked at,
but unable to be resolved as of yet ? Why can't i help resolve them ? I found them, i can reproduce them !

See ? Why the hell should i care about reporting them, if i don't get to know if you actually care ?
Customer support telling me to file a bug report is WORTHLESS, because there is no feedback about
what's going on with the bugs !
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2012-08-21 13:20:35 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
They aren't taking the lazy way out of the issue. You asked for it to be escalated, and it has been. It will be dealt with. You just have to be patient. Maybe the Senior GM can tell you something the one you dealt with couldn't. Coming onto the forums and throwing a temper tantrum is not going to help your case.



Again, our definitions differ. You call this a temper tantrum, I call it opinionated.
I call it lazy because they immediately respond that they can't assist, i believe, for very practical reasons. I think that they do it because there is a percentage of players who just accept it at face value, and don't press any further. This would greatly reduce the workload on their team.