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New T1 tackle frigs vs Interceptors: Why use an Inty Anymore?

Author
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#21 - 2012-08-19 22:52:34 UTC
Jude Lloyd wrote:
The answer is: Don't use Interceptors... Not right now at least.



Yup - that's what I do on my frig-only alt. Tackle-ceptors have their niche thanks to the long point, however I used to fly most combat ceptors with an AB anyway and as such, they're not really worth it over the T1 frigs.

ATM, I don't even see the price-tag justified for some AFs compared to the former highest tier frigs even though they were recently buffed.

It's not that I couldn't afford them, but they're easier to get fights in and not that much worse for a fraction of the price.

However, we're still looking a grossly inflated T2 prices still, so hopefully that'll balance out once more counters to the tech monopoly are implemented.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
#22 - 2012-08-19 22:55:38 UTC
I can't wait to see how interceptors will perform post-boost. For now, enjoy the cheap combat frigs and quit kvetching.

Some people have to find a cloud for every silver lining they see.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#23 - 2012-08-20 00:06:12 UTC
MWD sig bonus can be the difference between life and death when tackling cruisers and BC. And you forgot the T2 module cost in your price multiplication. With modules, T1 frigs are 2 or 3 times only cheaper than ceptors, and my bet is that ceptors are still at least 2 or 3 times more survivable.

Combat ceptors though compared a lot less favorably.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-08-20 00:32:14 UTC
Im personally loving flying the new Atron. Im going through them like water, but at ~8M a pop fully T2 fit, who cares?

I skipped frigates before. These have made them fun for me. I cant wait for the cruiser and BC changes.

All Hail tiericide!

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#25 - 2012-08-20 01:05:08 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
My basic point was is a Stiletto worth it compared to a Slasher when the hull costs 82 times as much?


82 ISK is 82 times 1 ISK, but that doesn't mean I worry about either price point.

-Liang


And in 0.0 where you hardly engage that price is justified for the small benefit. You know yourself though, in losec its all about having the ability to reship during a fight... and those costs soon mount up.


I must admit that I find this response terribly amusing. On the one hand, you seem to have completely misunderstood my post (cost isn't an issue I care about). On the other, you seem to think that we worry more about reshipping in low sec than in null sec. Well, you're 0 for 2 there.

Heeeeeey batta batta batta sawiiinngg!!!

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Major Killz
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#26 - 2012-08-20 01:38:27 UTC
I've found the changes to these frigates annoying as Fu**. They are very effective @ tackling.


The Exe has around the same damage output of a Crusader with an MSE. The same could be said about the others. Just another reason why combat interceptors have become over shadowed in terms of cost AND preformance.

There reasons to fly Interceptors (sig, long point range) are GUTED by the cost and similar preformance everywhere else (damage, tank) by tech 1 frigates.


- end of transmission

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-08-20 02:58:26 UTC
Probably not much of value, but Inties should still be faster in warp, in terms of AU/s. It is decisive for specific situations.

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#28 - 2012-08-20 12:13:17 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
I've found the changes to these frigates annoying as Fu**. They are very effective @ tackling.


The Exe has around the same damage output of a Crusader with an MSE. The same could be said about the others. Just another reason why combat interceptors have become over shadowed in terms of cost AND preformance.

There reasons to fly Interceptors (sig, long point range) are GUTED by the cost and similar preformance everywhere else (damage, tank) by tech 1 frigates.


- end of transmission

I'm not sure the problem is that huge. Combat inty still have this MWD sig bonus and T2 resist, allowing them to achieve similar tank than these T1 frig without tank module to alleviate their speed or signature. That is not negligible against larger target or in fleet. Though, indeed, it is not so much, and may be negligible in small ships engagements. They are now basicaly specialized anti large ship frigates but suck at everything else. Maybe it's the order of things ? This niche is pretty smal though, more over when you consider AF.
Noisrevbus
#29 - 2012-08-20 12:21:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Liang Nuren wrote:
The MWD sig bonus and point range come to mind. To me the question you should be asking is why anyone would fly a Crusader now that the Executioner exists. :)

-Liang


To expand a bit on Liang's statement about the combat role here...

The question you should ask yourself is if it's "worth" flying Interceptors now with only half the rebalance done.

It's really a straightforward discussion, so i'm not going to be spending much more time in this thread. There's just an obvious undertone here. If you ask why they should be flown people will begin to list small obvious details in favour of certain ships, at the same time it's glaringly obvious that the new EVE ships are better than the old ones at similar tiering, which means you can expect at least all Cruisers to see similar nudges while classes like BC who are considered "problematic" will have a different attention paid to them.

What's obvious now is that there is not as much incentive to fly related Tech II until they have been adressed, you don't need any thinly veiled rhetorical questions for that and it's going to be interesting to see how AF pair up once the entire frigate line is complete, or wether they would need to be adressed again.

I'm still quite at loss as to why this much attention is being spent on complete overhaul of largely reasonable class differences, under some sort of pretense that the new balance will be superior to the old one. They could easily just have axed BC cost-effect and then done ship-ship reviews within class. It's been my main argument throughout all these "new balance" threads, that the actual balance of the old ships was never bad and i'm highly sceptical to that specific part (just the balance of classes, cost or quirky bonuses aside) being done better.

There's been this misconception brewing lately that certain ships are bad just because you get better options with next to no difference in cost or near equal options while slashing cost by wide margin. If BC actually went on to cost 4x as much as a Cruiser it's likely that Cruisers would see more use. If a HAC didn't actually cost 10x of a BC then people would maybe see the appeal in those ships (compared to a class above) same as they suggest use for the Interceptors here.

Comparing Interceptors to Tech I frigates here do not open as many eyes, since they are still reasonably affordable ships.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#30 - 2012-08-20 14:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
This is a perfect example as to why ccp needs to balance t1 and t2 variants at the same time... Especially when extreme power creep is involved in the balancing process. Perfect example is how the taranis now has total fewer slots than the atron, well done guys... If we end up increasing slot numbers/stats of combat ceptors then we are going to throw off the balance between them and faction frigs which are already beaten out by some of the new t1 combat frigs... Overall this balancing style is proving to be rather amature.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#31 - 2012-08-20 14:19:59 UTC
Noisrevbus wrote:
If BC actually went on to cost 4x as much as a Cruiser it's likely that Cruisers would see more use.


An Oracle costs between 7x-10x the price of an Amarr cruiser, before fittings. A Harbinger only costs up to 5x as much.
The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-08-20 14:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: The VC's
I'm not sure I understand all this bemoaning the T2 frigs. They are still good, their extra features are valuable and justify their cost IMO. Anybody who has spent time flying the T1 attack frigs knows that if you fart in them you'll blow their airlock out. Those T2 resists can count for a lot.

I would be strongly against further buffing of T2 ships after 'tiericide'. It's been great that the gap between T1 and T2 has been closed a bit. Especially for the newer players. People have gotten too used to buying relative invincibility and that has been upset a bit.

The T2 ships will still have a strong advantage, and are especially rewarding to a player with good skills. With the T1 attack frigs, one false move and you're dead.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#33 - 2012-08-20 15:00:09 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The MWD sig bonus and point range come to mind. To me the question you should be asking is why anyone would fly a Crusader now that the Executioner exists. :)

-Liang



My Crusader is currently all cleaned up and on display mounted on a slowly spinning stand on loan to Johnny Rocket Burger's, until the balance pass at Inties is done. The Executioner is ... well... yeah.


Really? my crusader caught and held a navy slicer long enough for my fleet to kill it and me survive with 80% structure. The executioner who tried earlier could not say the same.

I view the combat ceptors as a good counter to these rebalances t1 tacklers.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#34 - 2012-08-20 15:14:33 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Really? my crusader caught and held a navy slicer long enough for my fleet to kill it and me survive with 80% structure. The executioner who tried earlier could not say the same.


http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17276701 :-/

That fight began in scram range, though. Before other mods and with meta MWD, a Crusader overheating its MWD has about 5700m/s to the Executioner's 5000m/s. But the Executioner accelerates faster.

Why do you think you couldn't've caught the Slicer in an Executioner?
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#35 - 2012-08-20 15:31:17 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Really? my crusader caught and held a navy slicer long enough for my fleet to kill it and me survive with 80% structure. The executioner who tried earlier could not say the same.


http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17276701 :-/

That fight began in scram range, though. Before other mods and with meta MWD, a Crusader overheating its MWD has about 5700m/s to the Executioner's 5000m/s. But the Executioner accelerates faster.

Why do you think you couldn't've caught the Slicer in an Executioner?


It was not the catching. That can often be easy in RvB. A lot of pilots think they are hot because they can fly fast little ships. They try to slip in, pull a frig off, then kite it and run before any help arrives. The crusader's e xtra tank let me survive long enough for help to arrive and get additional points on the slicer.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-08-20 19:10:56 UTC
Quote:
I'd LOVE to see Titans and Moms finally being balanced that way, too, so that they are only marginally better than cheap-ass stuff.


Funnily enough, this is actually how all the t2 mods are balanced. Would definitely be interesting.
MushroomMushroom
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#37 - 2012-08-21 14:09:03 UTC  |  Edited by: MushroomMushroom
What this thread is missing is that a properly setup fleet interceptor should be pushing 6.1k EHP before fleet bonsues, with a 29k point, while still traveling fast enough to hold anything but a speed tanked frigate. 35% of the cost of my ceptor is modules/rigs, so at most my ceptor costs 3x the price of a comparably configured T1 frig, for 3x the tank and better tackling, I'm gonna stick with the ceptor.

As its almost always used in fleets, there is a reasonable chance I'll be getting command links, which boosts the EHP up to 9491 and a 34.38km point (targeting range).
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#38 - 2012-08-21 14:17:21 UTC
MushroomMushroom wrote:
What this thread is missing is that a properly setup fleet interceptor should be pushing 6.1k EHP before fleet bonsues, with a 29k point, while still traveling fast enough to hold anything but a speed tanked frigate. 35% of the cost of my ceptor is modules/rigs, so at most my ceptor costs 3x the price of a comparably configured T1 frig, for 3x the tank and better tackling, I'm gonna stick with the ceptor.

As its almost always used in fleets, there is a reasonable chance I'll be getting command links, which boosts the EHP up to 9491 and a 34.38km point (targeting range).


No, I'm pretty sure we covered that ground. The discussion has moved on to the more interesting conversation about combat interceptors.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Barrak
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-08-21 17:38:26 UTC
Unless you are throwing Pilot skills into the mix how do you expect the Inty to stand up?

A well trained Inty pilot (5 is the only way to go!) Can get great speed at a tiny signature and a bloody long point. This will allow you to easily orbit a BS and it's smart bombs along with most Warrior 2's (unless they are very well trained Drone Pilot).

You can't take away half of its bonuses and then say it doesn't work...... well, you can, but it's silly!

Regards

Barrak
Garresh
Quality Assurance
#40 - 2012-08-22 04:19:32 UTC
Jim Tudeski wrote:
A lot of interesting things


No offense meant here, but all you've proven is what everyone already knew: The Claw is fracking terrible. The jag fits you listed blow the slasher out of the water, but lack the sheer speed the slasher brings to the table. Although that's saying something given that the AF buffs made the Jag one of the worst AFs now due to how much better the buffs for other AFs are. The stiletto still wins as an interceptor. The Jag still wins as a MWD brawler/fast dogfighter, but loses out in net speed. The claw was garbage as a ship since well before the T1 "attack frigate" changes. lol


Sorry to rip your post to shreds, but I've tried flying a Claw many a time, and they're complete trash. The comparison isn't really fair. The fracking RIFTER was better than a claw. T1 ships beating the claw is NOT new.

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