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Minmatar Capitals are being re-worked

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Bring Stabity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2011-10-13 07:17:53 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Or...we could just remove slave sets from the equation, and shield capitals could have the choice between getting more EHP (power diags) or having reasonable cap recharge (power relays).


Removing them has significant implications for markets and players currently owning them. CCP is strictly against refunds, so this would never happen
Aamrr
#42 - 2011-10-13 07:21:25 UTC
Who says you have to refund them? If a pilot is sitting in a supercapital at the time of the patch, just pull the slaves out of his head and stick them in the cargo bay.

They paid for slave implants, they still have slave implants. Now they just have to find something else useful to use them on -- and if that's selling them on the market, so be it. God knows they've gotten enough use out of them already to justify a loss on the resale.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#43 - 2011-10-13 12:33:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Aamrr wrote:
Who says you have to refund them? If a pilot is sitting in a supercapital at the time of the patch, just pull the slaves out of his head and stick them in the cargo bay.

They paid for slave implants, they still have slave implants. Now they just have to find something else useful to use them on -- and if that's selling them on the market, so be it. God knows they've gotten enough use out of them already to justify a loss on the resale.


This.

Change how implants work, slaves shouldn't affect capital ships. The cost of a slave set is nothing when you're weighing it against the cost of the Nyx + fit, yet is one of the single most important factors when you compare SC-to-SC balance. It's so non-optional, wearing slaves may as well be a pre-requisite for an armour capital.

Change the implants, when the patch hits, make it so that all implants can be unplugged for the period of Xdays, which allows anyone throwing their dummies out of the pram to sell them to the guy making his buffer Megathron.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2011-10-13 12:35:00 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Songbird wrote:
maybe instead of new implants just cut off the slaves from affecting caps and super caps - it will go great with the new "more vulnerable(and in touch with their feelings) caps

The correct solution to game balance or design problems is very rarely "remove content," especially in a game already so starved for content as EVE Online.


It is not removing content, it is modifying it. His idea would be more fitting than beefing up the smaller shield tanked ships.

Smaller shield tanks already have a lot of advantages and anything that makes a tengu even stronger - bad idea. That ship doesn't need a single boost to any part of it nor many other ships that it would enhance.

Toss on the Onyx to your list - that HIC, beefed up with even more shields... No, not a good idea and it would tip balances fare worse than removal of armor benefits from the capitals versus adding implants to strengthen shields farther.

Keeping viable alternative fitting options available is far better than "only 1 real solution".
Aamrr
#45 - 2011-10-13 12:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
Mocam wrote:
It is not removing content, it is modifying it. His idea would be more fitting than beefing up the smaller shield tanked ships.

Quoted for truth. The sad irony about slave implants is that their current implementation gives choice to no-one. They're either a necessity or too expensive to be cost-effective.

Using slaves on supercapitals was never a choice. The cost-benefit ratio meant that every armor tanked supercapital used them the same way they use (and abuse) T2 rigs -- their rarity dictated a price bracket appropriate for well-pimped battleships and normal capitals, but was a drop in the bucket on a supercapital purchase. Meanwhile, this demand on the market pushed prices beyond the level that any normal capital or subcapital could afford.

Perhaps once this artificial market demand is removed, slave implants will start being cost-effective options for things like Bhaalgorns and Vindicators. But until that happens, you can't argue that slave implants are giving ANYONE choices in the matter. They're too effective on supercapitals not to use them, and too costly on anything else to use them.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#46 - 2011-10-13 12:56:55 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Mocam wrote:
It is not removing content, it is modifying it. His idea would be more fitting than beefing up the smaller shield tanked ships.

Quoted for truth. The sad irony about slave implants is that their current implementation gives choice to no-one. They're either a necessity or too expensive to be cost-effective.

Using slaves on supercapitals was never a choice. The cost-benefit ratio meant that every armor tanked supercapital used them the same way they use (and abuse) T2 rigs -- their rarity dictated a price bracket appropriate for well-pimped battleships and normal capitals, but was a drop in the bucket on a supercapital purchase. Meanwhile, this demand on the market pushed prices beyond the level that any normal capital or subcapital could use them.

Perhaps once this artificial market demand is removed, slave implants will start being cost-effective options for things like Bhaalgorns and Vindicators. But until that happens, you can't argue that slave implants are giving ANYONE choices in the matter. They're too effective on supercapitals not to use them, and too costly on anything else to use them.


Now that's a post. :thumbup:
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#47 - 2011-10-13 13:04:43 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Perhaps once this artificial market demand is removed, slave implants will start being cost-effective options for things like Bhaalgorns and Vindicators. But until that happens, you can't argue that slave implants are giving ANYONE choices in the matter. They're too effective on supercapitals not to use them, and too costly on anything else to use them.

Uh, what? An LG slave set costs ~700m, which is perfectly reasonable for use on a pimp bhaal or vindi, even in an environment where pod loss is likely.
Aamrr
#48 - 2011-10-13 13:08:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
I thought it was evident I was talking about high grade sets. Perhaps I should have clarified. My apologies.

Edit: That said, once the supercapital demand on high-grades is removed, demand on low-grade sets would decrease as people begin to upgrade. With luck, we might start seeing low-grade sets being appropriate for ships at the navy-battleship cost profile. More ships seeing more options...always a good thing.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#49 - 2011-10-13 13:08:28 UTC
Headerman wrote:
^^^ What about the shield equivelent of the armor module that increases base armour amount by 8%?

A capital module, that fits in a low slot and requires capital amounts of PG, that increases the shields by 8-10%? Would be a lot easier to implement than a new implant set



A lot of people seem to deliberately forget the natural shield regeneration (x % shield value becoming exponential to your shield amount)
Has long has these numbers in paper can go over the roof there's no logical reason to give that kind of module to shield tanks when armor once it takes dmg it stays, you can't self regenerate it unless you repair it, so imho slaves seems perfectly adapted.

Instead of accusing Slaves or Crystals I guess it would be far more interesting to upgrade ships bonus related to cap/cpu consumption and/or (why not both) rep in/out bonus.

Has for the argument of -30% or (+30 to rep) shield buffer after jumping: prob something easy to code and would make some real difference instead of new mods.

CCP already stated that passive shield regen is way overpowered has it is, now add implants or mods to increase those and you'll make caldari/minmatar bricks way overpowered.
Now if some are smart enough to fit shield expanders like some fit plates on their capitals, sure, make more mods Lol
Aamrr
#50 - 2011-10-13 13:15:38 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
CCP already stated that passive shield regen is way overpowered has it is.


This statement confuses me. Barring a few ratting drakes out in the belts of nullsec, I can't remember the last time I saw passive tanks being used in any significant capacity. Buffer is indisputably popular, but that's certainly not an issue relevant to regen.

Battlecruiser level aside, there really aren't many ships out there that I would say should be passively-regen tanked. More often than not, you can get superior damage projection with using an active or buffer configuration with similar survivability.

Does anyone else feel this way, or am i mistaken?
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#51 - 2011-10-13 13:31:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Aamrr wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
CCP already stated that passive shield regen is way overpowered has it is.


This statement confuses me. Barring a few ratting drakes out in the belts of nullsec, I can't remember the last time I saw passive tanks being used in any significant capacity. Buffer is indisputably popular, but that's certainly not an issue relevant to regen.

Battlecruiser level aside, there really aren't many ships out there that I would say should be passively-regen tanked. More often than not, you can get superior damage projection with using an active or buffer configuration with similar survivability.

Does anyone else feel this way, or am i mistaken?


Ships that do/can abuse a passive recharge. Or rather, a large buffer in tandem with recharge:

- Drake (80k EHP as well as 250-300dps recharge quite possible)
- Onyx
- Tengu
- Nighthawk

Having similar EHP to similar class armour ship, and needing nothing but time to fix it back up, has always seemed borked to me. Or, having similar EHP yet also having a regen that is as tough as fitting an active armour tank to an unbonused hull.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Aamrr
#52 - 2011-10-13 13:36:03 UTC
I can't even get a buffer tanked onyx to get EHP comparable to a well-fitted devoter, much less one fit for passive-regen. The comparison is similar for the Damnation and Vulture, or the Legion and Tengu.

...Are you quite sure?
Lugalzagezi666
#53 - 2011-10-13 14:09:42 UTC
Devoter - 167k ehp, Onyx - 120k ehp, 390 recharge.
Absolution - 105k ehp, Nighthawk - 86k ehp, 150 recharge.
Drake doesnt have tier 2 bc counterpart with resist bonus, but lets compare it with prophecy in terms of tank. Prophecy - 88k ehp, Drake - 83k ehp with 150 recharge.
Legion - 144k ehp. Tengu - 94k ehp, 112 recharge.

And keep in mind, that you get peak recharge only between 30-33% of shields. At high or low shields its much less. So where do you see "abusing" of passive recharge?
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#54 - 2011-10-13 16:42:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
The abuse, with the Onyx, comes from the fact that if you brick tank them, you'll get 120-130k EHP (before any implants) and a ~750 recharge rate. 130kEHP isn't a terrible deal, but a recharge rate that puts it's "tank" over that of an active-tanking BC AS WELL AS having roughly equal EHP can be a game changer in small gang warfare. It's one of the reasons why it sees so much use. If you throw in implants to add to the shield amount, you also increase it's "tank." If you have it's shields anywhere near peak recharge, and your damage output gets cut off (ECM, or whatever) then it will magically 'spawn' 15,000 more EHP.

I've seen a fair few SPR Onyx's fielded around. The lower EHP may make them seem tardy in nullsec vs alpha fleets, but they're very common in WH space where gangs are smaller. Remember you can jump when agressed in WHs, so jumping out, holding cloak, then jumping back in has just given you a metric fuckton of EHP back.

In a C4 pulsar WH, an Onyx can field a cap-stable 1300 DPS regen-tank.

EDIT: Personally, I feel that adding SPR's to a ship should gimp shield amount, in exchange for shield recharge. This would leave passive tanking more balanced.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Lugalzagezi666
#55 - 2011-10-13 17:49:13 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:


Please, show me your onyx fit, because standard fit with pdus has only 120k ehp with 388 passive defence. Dropping pdus to sprs means - 16k ehp, + 200 passive defence and massacre to your cap. Just to compare, active tanking bc - myrmidon - can tank 650+ dps. So no, its not over active tanking bc. And while active tanking bc can tank 650 dps all the time, onyx can tank 588 dps only with shields around 30%. With more/less shields, recharge is much lower.

You see few spr onyxes fielded, because its stupid idea. If hic is shot, it is primary, and in such situations 500 tank means noting and its all about ehp to survive till your wdfg goess off and you can be rred.

And "cap stable" tank. I see you have no idea what are you talking about. Just 3 sprs kill your cap to such degree, that after few secs of mwding you will have hard time running your hardeners and wdfg.

Ps : Personally i dont care about sprs and passive tanking at all, because it sucks both for pvp and pve, but its far from "abuse" of passive recharge.
Aamrr
#56 - 2011-10-13 18:04:06 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Personally, I feel that adding SPR's to a ship should gimp shield amount, in exchange for shield recharge. This would leave passive tanking more balanced.


What, you mean like....shield flux coils?
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#57 - 2011-10-13 19:32:26 UTC
Quote:
Just to compare, active tanking bc - myrmidon - can tank 650+ dps has long has he has cap charges, after this he will miserably die in a fireball because no cap is no tank


*hehem*
Lugalzagezi666
#58 - 2011-10-13 19:44:44 UTC
It has space for 16 navy 800s + 2 in cap boosters. That means it will last much longer than spr fit onyx that will cap out just by running hardeners and wdfg.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2011-10-13 19:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Khanh'rhh wrote:
The abuse, with the Onyx, comes from the fact that if you brick tank them, you'll get 120-130k EHP (before any implants) and a ~750 recharge rate. 130kEHP isn't a terrible deal, but a recharge rate that puts it's "tank" over that of an active-tanking BC AS WELL AS having roughly equal EHP can be a game changer in small gang warfare. It's one of the reasons why it sees so much use. If you throw in implants to add to the shield amount, you also increase it's "tank." If you have it's shields anywhere near peak recharge, and your damage output gets cut off (ECM, or whatever) then it will magically 'spawn' 15,000 more EHP.


HICs are hard to kill, news at 11. In other breaking news, they do pitiful DPS and bubbling up is the same as throwing triple webs on yourself, so I'm not sure why this is such a game-changer...?

Quote:
I've seen a fair few SPR Onyx's fielded around. The lower EHP may make them seem tardy in nullsec vs alpha fleets, but they're very common in WH space where gangs are smaller. Remember you can jump when agressed in WHs, so jumping out, holding cloak, then jumping back in has just given you a metric fuckton of EHP back.


3 SPR Onyx is barely cap stable just running two hardeners.

EDIT: just so we're keeping the argument in context, he's saying it's "abuse" that a shipclass with a bonus and slot layout favorable to passive shield tanking has an awesome passive shield tank. And because of this, it's totally reasonable and balanced that armor supercaps get a massive EHP boost over shield ones.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2011-10-13 20:07:02 UTC
Remember this is a discussion on how to improve the Minmatar capitals.

Has anyone got some thoughts on the Ragnarok?

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