These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Amarr Crusade conquers Minmatar space ! Billions flee onslaught ! Second Day of Darkness !
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#61 - 2012-08-16 15:44:52 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
May I gently suggest that the easiest way to accomplish this is to change your import regulations and immigration laws? Expecting the universe to bend to your desires is... inefficient.


May I gently suggest, Captain, that the odds of that happening are anything but good when the Federal Administration can be more accurately described as an Intaki pyramid scheme than as anything resembling a functional set of public institutions?

What little influence I have to affect the immigration and import regulation laws both on the local and the national level is already being applied in the direction you suggest. The only thing I can do beyond that, within the bounds of the law, is to raise public awareness of the issue - which is what my post that you cited was intended to do.
Evelyn Meiyi
Corvidae Trading and Holding
#62 - 2012-08-16 15:56:23 UTC
Kalaratiri wrote:
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:

I won't pretend that we're all perfect angels (because frankly, we're not), but we are not as disgusting as the Minmatar propaganda machine wants you to believe.


You were doing really well until this bit. The Gallente are quite able to display you as monsters without our help. After all, it wasn't us or the Caldari that attempted to invade Solitude, it was one of your imperial heirs. Your people have given the Gallente enough reason to dislike you without needing to borrow from our hatred of your kind.

Also, claiming the Gallente public opinion is influenced by the Minmatar 'propaganda machine' is just a little bit hilarious. The millions of our people fleeing the Empire and the Republic for the Federation is all in the aid of propaganda is it?

And finally. That was one of the worst attempts at disguising your own propaganda as a claim to have found evidence of someone else's that I have ever seen.


My wording may have been ambiguous as well. I used your people's hate as the most prominent example of the general attitude that we face.

When I speak of 'propaganda', I refer mainly to those that continually demonize the whole of Amarrian and Khanid society as abusive, sexually-perverted monsters.

To classify everyone in a culture as violent, psychotic perverts is propaganda, of the worst sort. It's rather like classifying the whole of MInmatar society as violent, ill-tempered rebels, or the entirety of Caldari society as greedy capitalists, or all of Gallente society as unbridled hedonists.

Would such stereotypes be accurate -- or fair? I think not. However 'deserved' it might appear, our society is not one that breeds the kind of sickening creatures that the rest of the Cluster so fondly assumes must be the norm for our people.
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#63 - 2012-08-16 16:09:08 UTC
Henry Montclaire wrote:
Do you dispute that an Emperor or Empress could easily start a war if he or she had the desire to do so? Even if they are not above all law, they are respected and obeyed until they have shown themselves unworthy of it, and would a grand attempt to bring the last rebellious State under the gentle guidance of the Amarr be seen as grounds to forsake this Emperor or Empress? I expect that it would be more likely for it to be applauded.


I would not dispute this claim for it is founded in truth. I also suspect that the Caldari fully understand this.

Henry Montclaire wrote:
Your other points however are very well made. The engineering of your Empire is truly brilliant. That it requires even one generation of slavery is abhorrent, and that these slaves form the underpinning of its economic might is to my mind obscene, but I do not doubt that there are many within the Amarr state who truly mean well.


Your values and moral center demand that you be incensed by the existence of slavery in the Empire as it seems to you to be an affront to basic human rights and dignities.

Henry Montclaire wrote:
The Amarr Empire is excellently engineered and is unmatched in the power of its indoctrination techniques. Yes, slaves can be freed, if their families are in good standing and have served faithfully for many generations. But this still condemns the individual. Without an act of truly epic heroism, no slave can free him or herself if born into a family in bad standing. Moreover, I have read that many of your slaves who work as manual laborers are not even taught to read or write. Those that are educated and who will be serving on ships or posts that demand a high degree of intelligence and skill are then addicted to a substance without which they will die. Many of your other slave control techniques are equally or even more brutal. How you can make use of these tools and then claim that this treatment is moral is frankly, beyond my comprehension.


Your comprehension of the basics is commendable. I would explain a few minor differences. First, an individual slave can be elevated on their own if they serve faithfully and prove receptive to the faith. However, these elevated slaves do not earn the elevation of their entire family, only themselves. Families may be elevated after a generation of faithful service and reception as the entire family has proven receptive and faithful. Sometimes it takes much longer for a family to prove receptive and faithful. In either instance, the entire family is elevated after their security in the faith is proven. That is the point of slavery, after all.

It is unfortunate (but true) that many slaves performing manual labor are not educated in literacy, something that I would seek to see remedied and have personally committed to remedying on some small scale (being that I offer tutelage in literacy). However, the distinction isn't made based on intelligence, but rather on risk. The stations you reference are stations held by slaves which grant them considerable freedoms and liberties, allowing them a great many opportunities for rebellion and other sins, which would be detrimental to their growth in the faith.

I can provide you no answers as to why the methods that are employed are employed, only that they are and even though the percentage of total slaves afflicted by these methods is extremely low, it is still far more than would be preferable in an ideal situation. (The ideal being none). What I can provide you with is the truth that even the Empire is capable of realizing when it's sinned and it may take some time but perhaps these deplorable methods of control will be revealed as such in the future.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution
Henry Montclaire
Guild of Independent Pilots
DammFam
#64 - 2012-08-16 19:10:25 UTC
You have been both eloquent and fair in your statements here Monsieur Amith. Would that your grace were the norm. I look forward to our next discussion. In the interim, I offer my sincerest condolences to all those displaced by the recent Amarrian resurgence. If I could do more than offer platitudes, I would, but alas my hands are currently tied.
Lucius Vindictus
Arachnos
#65 - 2012-08-16 20:32:15 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Lucius Vindictus wrote:
Mardon Hashur wrote:
Azdan Amith wrote:
Mardon Hashur wrote:
Mr.Amith, slavery is for the moral and cultural well being of said slave, and I do know that some of these families have been in there condition for countless generations but I am proud to say that my family has never had a slave line that was not held for longer that ten generations.


I would urge you to read what you just said, Brother Hashur.

You are suggesting that the minimum amount of time a family will spend as slaves under your tutelage is ten generations.

Also, I know exactly what slavery is meant for in the Empire, my message never suggested otherwise.



NO the maximum amount of time a slave has spent in slavery in my family is ten generations. The avarage time is some were between 5-7 generations.

And I apologies for saying you were ignorant.


That is interesting...

If what you say is true your family is in violation of the Emancipation Edict issued by the Empress herself.


That depends on whether or not the slaves are classed as Minmatars.


Hmmm, that is true! Not all slaves are Minmatar. And now that I think of it, I suppose it also matters if his family is based in the Amarr Empire or in the Khanid Kingdom.
Kirill Cantor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2012-08-16 21:46:49 UTC
Mardon Hashur wrote:
Mr.Amith, slavery is for the moral and cultural well being of said slave, and I do know that some of these families have been in there condition for countless generations but I am proud to say that my family has never had a slave line that was not held for longer that ten generations.


Do you honestly mean to suggest that it is within our peoples best interest to concede our freedom? Or is it just more convenient? No people have the inate right to subdue another
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#67 - 2012-08-16 22:11:07 UTC
Kirill Cantor wrote:
Do you honestly mean to suggest that it is within our peoples best interest to concede our freedom? Or is it just more convenient? No people have the inate right to subdue another


To the first: yes, that's pretty much how they see it. They don't really expect you to agree, of course. Hence the lasers.

To the last: it's a nice thought, but this is where the Blood Raiders have a point. Ability is the only "innate" requirement for an action. If it is within the capability of one people to subdue another, it's much better to for the would-be subdue-ees to scramble to their defense than to waste time arguing the right and wrong of it.

The odds of the universe coming to your aid are minimal. If you desire to retain your freedom, defend yourselves.
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#68 - 2012-08-16 22:20:44 UTC
Kirill Cantor wrote:
Do you honestly mean to suggest that it is within our peoples best interest to concede our freedom? Or is it just more convenient? No people have the inate right to subdue another


You are not conceding freedom, you are submitting to guidance and leadership. Of course, to you this may seem repulsive or an extremely arrogant statement, it is not actually intended that way. Our charge is to bring all of Creation to the understanding of living righteously before God. The concept is naturally foreign to the minds of those living apart from God and it requires guidance and leadership to bring them to the revelation of God and truth. To do this often requires that the things that keep them separated from God must be removed. I believe this is what you consider the concession of your freedoms.

It has nothing to do with convenience.

It is not a right, no. It is a duty, a charge, a command. Just as a government can subdue you for breaking its laws and uses an internal security or police force to do so, God can subdue you for breaking his laws and uses his chosen people to do so. The end desire is for you to be brought before him in righteousness and given a place of honor beside him so that you do not perish eternally separated from him.

I understand this may seem repulsive and nonsensical to you and that is unfortunate. However, we take our charge seriously and would rather see you learning to live righteously before God than dying apart from him.

When I have more time, I will explain more clearly how this actually works from the standpoint of the Amarr and why it is in direct conflict with the mindset of those outside of the faith.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#69 - 2012-08-16 23:05:11 UTC
Emile Belfleur wrote:
May I gently suggest, Captain, that the odds of that happening are anything but good when the Federal Administration can be more accurately described as an Intaki pyramid scheme than as anything resembling a functional set of public institutions?

What little influence I have to affect the immigration and import regulation laws both on the local and the national level is already being applied in the direction you suggest. The only thing I can do beyond that, within the bounds of the law, is to raise public awareness of the issue - which is what my post that you cited was intended to do.


I apologize for misinterpreting your intentions. I would then only suggest that an international forum is not the best place to conduct internal awareness-raising. There are many among the other nations who might take offense at it being suggested their products are willfully shoddy and exploitative, or that their kinsmen are concerned only with straining the Gallente social security network.

I wish you the best of luck in your attempts to change the Federation for the better. It is a challenge I can scarcely fathom. Here, if I believe a policy ought to change, I can simply prove it to my superiors and the change is enacted. Motivating a populace seems much more... messy, and much slower. Good profit to you!
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#70 - 2012-08-16 23:41:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Azdan Amith
Mister Cantor,

As promised, I will attempt to explain the root of the dilemma more clearly. To do, we'll focus on what we call a people's "worldview." That is, the lens through which they view the cluster and everything within it. The easiest way to do this from my experience is to discuss the dominant science behind each particular worldview. For the basis of this explanation, we'll simply use four major peoples and their stereotypical worldview. In each, I will combine the science of anthropology, to explain how each worldview relates to its perception of humanity.

Gallente:

For the Gallente, anthropology is the dominant science. It is through anthropology that distinctions between humans and other creatures can be seen as well as commonalities between humans of different regions and locations. It is from these distinctions and commonalities that the fundamental human rights that become the foundation of the Gallentean worldview are drawn. Nearly all other sciences will be enveloped by anthropology and compared to how they interact with humanity. For example, the Gallentean concept of the Divine (or lack thereof) derives from making theology subject to anthropology and ensuring that the deity of theology is in harmony with the revelations and principles found through their study of anthropology.

Achura:

For the Achura, cosmology is the dominant science. It is through cosmology that the Achura gain the enlightenment they seek. The study of the cluster itself (indeed, all of creation and how each facet and area of creation interlaces with each other facet in the greater whole) reveals to the Achura object truths of reality by which all else is seen. It is this understanding of the cosmos through which the Achura base their concepts of morality and ethics, harmony and dissonance and strive for unity with what they perceive to the most natural and real state of creation. (Real being defined as: not muddied by external perceptions, preconceptions or assertions (these would be described most often as illusions that blind us to the reality)).

Minmatar:

For the Minmatar, mythology is the dominant science. It is through ancient lore and legend that the cluster is seen and each legend and lore differs between tribes and worlds. (It is for this reason that understanding the culture, spirituality and worldview of one tribe or group of Minmatar will not help you to understand another). Yet collectively these legends and lore and speak of spirits and spiritual beings (the relationships and names of these beings may differ between tribes). It is also through these legends and lore that the Minmatar see one another and all of humanity, their relationship to these governing spirits and their purpose and place in all of creation.

Amarr:

For the Amarr, theology is the dominant science. It is through the study of the Divine (or the concept of the Divine) that the Amarr perceive all of creation. It is the principles found in the Divine and the relationship between the Divine and Creation that the Amarr base all other sciences and knowledge upon. Anthropology is subservient to theology, all basic human rights and dignity are derived from the relationship of the Divine to Creation and the expectations and principles found in the Divine.

In each respective worldview and their dominant science, all other sciences and studies are subject to the dominant one and each will be viewed from the angle of it. It is because of these that we all hold different things to be "true" and our idea of human rights and dignities will vary, just as our deepest convictions of morality and ethics will differ, our governing principles will differ. That is why what the Amarr see as a step toward righteousness before God (a product of theology) the Minmatar see has a repulsive institution of prejudice and inhumanity (a product of several things, not in the least of which would be Mythology and the experience gained from an unjust and unrighteous practice of the same institution by those who instituted it) and the Gallente see it as a violation of human rights and an abhorrent construct of oppression and tyranny (a product of anthropology).

I should note that each of the worldviews listed above is based simply on my own studies and understandings over several conversations, formal education and debates with those holding those beliefs and may not be entirely accurate but I believe they are sufficient enough to get the point across.

EDIT: tl;dr - There is a lot to sum up, let me try this: "Different people see things different ways because of different governing perceptions."

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution
Rhiannon Dellacorte
Liberty Vanguard
#71 - 2012-08-16 23:52:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhiannon Dellacorte
Nice summation.

I didn't read it of course, but it looks very well-written.*

I notice you don't include ethnic Caldari, Jin-Mei, or Intaki. Any particular reason why? I only bring attention to it because you did single out Achur beliefs. Are you just more knowledgeable on the ones mentioned?

*I'm joking, I did read it.

Rules of Acquisition #261

A wealthy man can afford anything except a conscience.
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#72 - 2012-08-16 23:54:08 UTC
Perceptive as usual, Miss Dellacorte.

Yes, I only included worldviews that I am at least partially familiar with, it is difficult to try and explain something with any modicum of truth if your content is based entirely on ignorance.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution
Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#73 - 2012-08-17 00:11:52 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Good profit to you!


You know, I like those Caldari sentiments. Good profit to you as well, Captain.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#74 - 2012-08-17 00:46:27 UTC
Lucius Vindictus wrote:
Hmmm, that is true! Not all slaves are Minmatar. And now that I think of it, I suppose it also matters if his family is based in the Amarr Empire or in the Khanid Kingdom.

That is correct. Neither the Emperor nor the Theological Council possess legal authority within the Khanid Kingdom.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Kirill Cantor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2012-08-17 00:55:04 UTC
Azdan Amith wrote:
Kirill Cantor wrote:
Do you honestly mean to suggest that it is within our peoples best interest to concede our freedom? Or is it just more convenient? No people have the inate right to subdue another


You are not conceding freedom, you are submitting to guidance and leadership. Of course, to you this may seem repulsive or an extremely arrogant statement, it is not actually intended that way. Our charge is to bring all of Creation to the understanding of living righteously before God. The concept is naturally foreign to the minds of those living apart from God and it requires guidance and leadership to bring them to the revelation of God and truth. To do this often requires that the things that keep them separated from God must be removed. I believe this is what you consider the concession of your freedoms.

It has nothing to do with convenience.

It is not a right, no. It is a duty, a charge, a command. Just as a government can subdue you for breaking its laws and uses an internal security or police force to do so, God can subdue you for breaking his laws and uses his chosen people to do so. The end desire is for you to be brought before him in righteousness and given a place of honor beside him so that you do not perish eternally separated from him.

I understand this may seem repulsive and nonsensical to you and that is unfortunate. However, we take our charge seriously and would rather see you learning to live righteously before God than dying apart from him.

When I have more time, I will explain more clearly how this actually works from the standpoint of the Amarr and why it is in direct conflict with the mindset of those outside of the faith.




Your words might carry more weight if more of my race did not end up as servants in Mardon Hashur's household, rather than neighbors living next door with their own quarters. As for your God, i'd never heard of it until I was at least 15 years of age. Books authored by the Amarr rarely turned up in my township. I grew well before reading Amarrian scriptures, and I thrived after having paid them no mind. I have no quarrels with the religions of other cultures, but I take offense when those religions are distorted to condone imperialism. I'm sure there are a select few who take your scriptures to heart, yourself included it seems, but it seems to me much more likely that those in power would use scripture as a both a weapon against those whom the Amarr see as inferior, and as a veil to blind your citizens into believing their actions justified. Im sure I speak for most Minmatar when I say that we'd prefer to be left to our own fates, whatever they may be, for our destinies do not have to be linked. You only believe they do.
Kirill Cantor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2012-08-17 03:27:52 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Kirill Cantor wrote:
Do you honestly mean to suggest that it is within our peoples best interest to concede our freedom? Or is it just more convenient? No people have the inate right to subdue another


To the first: yes, that's pretty much how they see it. They don't really expect you to agree, of course. Hence the lasers.

To the last: it's a nice thought, but this is where the Blood Raiders have a point. Ability is the only "innate" requirement for an action. If it is within the capability of one people to subdue another, it's much better to for the would-be subdue-ees to scramble to their defense than to waste time arguing the right and wrong of it.

The odds of the universe coming to your aid are minimal. If you desire to retain your freedom, defend yourselves.


I agree entirely. I understand why a people would seek more power. I simply dont like that they want you to agree with them
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#77 - 2012-08-17 04:57:26 UTC
Kirill Cantor wrote:
I understand why a people would seek more power. I simply dont like that they want you to agree with them


Hm. Yes. It's sort of funny how that works, really.

On the one hand, claims of benevolence sound foul in the mouths of conquerors. I think the Matari and Caldari can agree unequivocally on that point.

On the other, if I must be conquered, I'd much rather be conquered by Mr. Amith than by, say, Silas Vitalia. Mr. Amith's firm belief in his people's basic benevolence may make us grind our teeth (a villain should have the courtesy to be villainous, no?), but, while surely not all Amarrians are, it at least appears clear that he is sincere about it. As are many others, maybe even most.

The Sani, in contrast, have discarded all pretense of benevolence and become much more fully what you and the Gallente tend to see the Amarr as being: the will to power, devoid of compassion.

If I must be at an enemy's mercy, let it at least be an enemy who looks at me and recognizes a fellow human being to be instructed and uplifted, rather than a resource to be exploited.

The one promises a future of a kind, however shameful. The other makes no promises whatsoever.

(If this doesn't break up the "moral equivalency" bit sufficiently for you, try considering which one you'd rather see in possession of your little sister or your grandmother. Once you get past the shame of the whole blasted situation, it's not a hard choice, is it?)
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#78 - 2012-08-17 13:07:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Azdan Amith
You are indeed a perceptive and insightful individual Miss Jenneth. I would offer to meet you in person some time for further discussion and perhaps a chance to know one another as individuals rather than a face attached to a debate.

If I must be a villain in your perception, then at least let me be an understood one.

As it is likely you have no desire to visit me in the Empire, perhaps you would be willing to play hostess?


Kirill Cantor wrote:
I agree entirely. I understand why a people would seek more power. I simply dont like that they want you to agree with them


I don't expect you to agree with me, Captain Cantor. The purpose of explanation isn't always to breed agreement.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution
Jev North
Doomheim
#79 - 2012-08-17 15:09:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jev North
Aria Jenneth wrote:


On the one hand, [...]

On the other, [...]


Similar issues have been on my mind lately; for example, the reason why it often seems that there seems to be no end to the amount of argument, denunciations, and general trouble the Amarr get over slavery, and how Angels seem to get off with a shrug and muttered "well, we're the bad guys - what did you expect?"

I think there is a deep-seated psychological distinction between in- and out-groups in our heads, one that causes deep cognitive dissonance when someone with a similar but nevertheless different value system still claims to be on the side of 'civilized' society. It's disharmonious; a nail sticking out; an incorrect opinion that needs to be rectified through forceful argument.

Outlaws, enemies, and hopeless cases may be ignored, or shot at leisure. At the very least, it's generally clear how to deal with them. A stubborn sheep, one that keeps insisting on straying from the flock, despite your best efforts to get it through it's little skull that doing so is a really bad idea? Not so much. Perhaps a swift but pedagogically justified beating will do, then. Mh.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#80 - 2012-08-17 17:27:57 UTC
Jev North wrote:

Outlaws, enemies, and hopeless cases may be ignored, or shot at leisure. At the very least, it's generally clear how to deal with them. A stubborn sheep, one that keeps insisting on straying from the flock, despite your best efforts to get it through it's little skull that doing so is a really bad idea? Not so much. Perhaps a swift but pedagogically justified beating will do, then. Mh.


Strange...you don't look like a Holder, you sound like one though.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution