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Battleships?
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Sigras
Conglomo
#1 - 2012-08-16 07:32:07 UTC
Why are battleships considered so terrible?

I understand that they are slow lumbering beasts of things, but why not use them on defense where holding the battlefield is more important and mobility less so?

It cant be because of the terrible tracking of large guns because the tier 3 battlecruisers seems pretty popular, but I keep reading things like "lolzbattleships" and wonder to myself, "why?"
Jude Lloyd
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-08-16 07:36:52 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Why are battleships considered so terrible?

I understand that they are slow lumbering beasts of things, but why not use them on defense where holding the battlefield is more important and mobility less so?

It cant be because of the terrible tracking of large guns because the tier 3 battlecruisers seems pretty popular, but I keep reading things like "lolzbattleships" and wonder to myself, "why?"


What's a "Battleship"?

I'm back!
Jude Lloyd
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-08-16 07:38:30 UTC
But in all seriousness, I don't use them because I'm a lowsec pirate who wants some mobility during fights where I'm most likely up against a FW blob.

Not sure what the rest of Eve's excuse is...

I'm back!
terzslave
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-08-16 07:58:57 UTC
Also because they're not cost effective in a fight.
Nihi Lismus
A Lone Wolf Inc.
#5 - 2012-08-16 08:06:45 UTC
Depends on the Fleetdoctrine.
There are a few (Hellcats / Alpha-Maels) where the backbone of the fleet are BSs.
But more populare are fleet setups like the Drake-Army.
Lower costs, faster to skill, easier to fly.

Next step would be the Tengu-Army

(another reason for the Drake-Armys was/is, that flying rockets generating Lag. The Plan was, to lag-out the enemys Turret-BSs and Logis)

Helft dem Kleinkünstler!
Jude Lloyd
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-08-16 08:09:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jude Lloyd
Nihi Lismus wrote:
Depends on the Fleetdoctrine.
There are a few (Hellcats / Alpha-Maels) where the backbone of the fleet are BSs.
But more populare are fleet setups like the Drake-Army.
Lower costs, faster to skill, easier to fly.

Next step would be the Tengu-Army

(another reason for the Drake-Armys was/is, that flying rockets generating Lag. The Plan was, to lag-out the enemys Turret-BSs and Logis)


Oh you're talking about blob warfare...

I think he was asking about PVP.

I might be wrong of course.

I'm back!
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#7 - 2012-08-16 08:44:30 UTC
Roaming in battleship(s) is a bit sucky, and risky due to low mobility. To me that's the main reason for not flying them more. If we have a fight in our home system, I'm very happy to field a triple-plate Mega or neut Domi. I even have an ultra-ganky NDomi waiting for such an opportunity :)

Battleships still combine high dps with staying power and do it relatively cheaply. A buffer Proteus also reaches the same magical 1000dps zone with even more EHP, but if I can choose between risking a T3 or a fully insured T2-fitted battleship that will do the job, choice is easy. Also the drone dmg amps made Domis very, very strong and few ships can compete with their dps.

I see tr3 BCs as very different from battleships, Talos is more like a cruiser to me, it does not fill the same purpose to me.

.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-08-16 09:05:24 UTC
My nano-phoon moves like a BC, has more ehp, 1000dps, 2 heavy neuts, and makes you smile when you land on a T3 who thought he could... whats not to love?

No Worries
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-08-16 09:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Sigras wrote:
Why are battleships considered so terrible?


Because people are sheep, they read something and follow it to the letter. Put nearly any ship in the game into the right hands and I assure you it'll murder just about anything with a proper fit and use.

Nihi Lismus wrote:
But more populare are fleet setups like the Drake-Army.
Lower costs, faster to skill, easier to fly.

(another reason for the Drake-Armys was/is, that flying rockets generating Lag. The Plan was, to lag-out the enemys Turret-BSs and Logis)


One of the most famous Drake fleets, the goon one, performs a very specific role with a very specific fit. That fleet would be severely weakened without a Malestrom with with heavy alpha strike ability, but most people just ignore that and whine on about the Drakes.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-08-16 11:16:34 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Why are battleships considered so terrible?

I understand that they are slow lumbering beasts of things, but why not use them on defense where holding the battlefield is more important and mobility less so?

It cant be because of the terrible tracking of large guns because the tier 3 battlecruisers seems pretty popular, but I keep reading things like "lolzbattleships" and wonder to myself, "why?"



Those are from another age back when dinosaurs where kings of the hill. Bonuses, weapon systems, slots layout, base speed, base ehp and agility/mass are horrible and only work in some circumstances like with some Pirate Battleships.
You can succeed with those, they can be very nasty in fact when you think about how many players and often older ones are horrible at fitting their ships and flying them. Then you can put a super vid on youtube how powerful battleships are.

brb
Xpaulusx
Naari LLC
#11 - 2012-08-16 11:35:40 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Why are battleships considered so terrible?

I understand that they are slow lumbering beasts of things, but why not use them on defense where holding the battlefield is more important and mobility less so?

It cant be because of the terrible tracking of large guns because the tier 3 battlecruisers seems pretty popular, but I keep reading things like "lolzbattleships" and wonder to myself, "why?"

Battleships are still very relevant, just look at what CFC did to Raiden with their Alpha Maelstrom Doctrine not long ago. flavor of the month builds will come & go but the battleship is still the staple of any alliance fighting in Null. Do yourself a favor, stop listening to idiots that dont know what their talking about.

......................................................
Altessa Bank
Emergency Response One
#12 - 2012-08-16 14:01:16 UTC
In my opinion, in small skirmishes, BSs are fairly useless in close range fighting (Mobility/tracking). Though some BSs have the capability to **** in close range affairs i.e. Machariel. BSs can also be used as a long range battery platform in gate camps w/ tackle, and are also a huge part in laying siege to a POS. Yes, some people use Dreads to do that, but its good to have a BS/BC complement, and rep support just incase of a counter attack. BSs just fit more different roles for different fights. For the most part. People rely on the mobility and steady firepower of Battle Cruisers (cost efficient for combat pilots) and T3 Cruisers (Wealthy combat pilots). Thats my two cents. Blink
Ryder 3vyn
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-08-16 14:01:31 UTC
Xpaulusx wrote:
stop listening to idiots that dont know what their talking about.

wat
Fleet Warpsujarento
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-08-16 14:50:15 UTC
They're too fat for small gang.

The better part of small gang PvP is catching smaller forces that you can smash, and running away from bigger forces that can crush you, and BS aren't very good at that because of how slow they are.
Noisrevbus
#15 - 2012-08-16 14:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
I'm not sure who you have been listening to, because Battleships are some of the best ships in the game.

They are represented in all scales and forms of gameplay, and they are still reasonably affordable.

One of them may not adapt to all situations that can arise, but as a class they are very allround and powerful.

- If you roam you have everything from active tanked or asb-boosting variants to shield buffered nano BS.
- If you drop or do close-region roams (as in lowsec) you also have many plated setups to choose from.
- If you fleet BS are still central components of any competent political actor (Maels, Baddons and Rokhs).

The only thing they can't do, which is a bit of a "duh" is do small nano roams that rely on outrunning BC. They can be fast as BC, but not magnitudes faster. I'm not sure what logic you'd apply to demand they'd be that on the other hand.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#16 - 2012-08-16 15:05:44 UTC
Noisrevbus wrote:

The only thing they can't do, which is a bit of a "duh" is do small nano roams that rely on outrunning BC. They can be fast as BC, but not magnitudes faster. I'm not sure what logic you'd apply to demand they'd be that on the other hand.


The pest and phoon (and navy editions) can both be easily made faster than a typical bc.
Chimpy B
The Philosophy Of Two
#17 - 2012-08-16 15:22:02 UTC
Battleships are perfect for L4 missions.

They have higher dps than any T2 cruiser, and more tank ability.

They are relatively cheap, too.

But like all T1 ships they have low base resistances and only 1 set of bonuses, so I guess that's the reason they aren't popular.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-08-16 15:28:06 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Noisrevbus wrote:

The only thing they can't do, which is a bit of a "duh" is do small nano roams that rely on outrunning BC. They can be fast as BC, but not magnitudes faster. I'm not sure what logic you'd apply to demand they'd be that on the other hand.


The pest and phoon (and navy editions) can both be easily made faster than a typical bc.


ChromeStriker wrote:
My nano-phoon moves like a BC, has more ehp, 1000dps, 2 heavy neuts, and makes you smile when you land on a T3 who thought he could... whats not to love?

No Worries
Bill Serkoff2
Tachyon Technology
#19 - 2012-08-16 15:36:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Bill Serkoff2
People don't like to fly Battleships because they're not MWD-rocketship frigate-tracking neut beasts like a hurricane or instant-win-ezmode-faceroll like a Drake. They take skill and tactics to fly, something few people have, including myself.

"The Cyclone and the Drake are two ships which will basically never be good for shield tanking, primarily because they have almost no lowslots in addition to shield tanking bonuses. " -Iam Widdershins
Noisrevbus
#20 - 2012-08-16 15:43:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Michael Harari wrote:
Noisrevbus wrote:

The only thing they can't do, which is a bit of a "duh" is do small nano roams that rely on outrunning BC. They can be fast as BC, but not magnitudes faster. I'm not sure what logic you'd apply to demand they'd be that on the other hand.


The pest and phoon (and navy editions) can both be easily made faster than a typical bc.


Did you miss the logic?

That first quote does not say they are slower, it says they are as fast (as, within the same magnitude), but not magnitudes faster.

- If a Drake go 1100m/s and a nano Pest goes 1300m/s: then yes, it's faster but it's still within the same ideal of speed.
- An Interceptor on the other hand go 5000m/s and that's an entirely different magnitude.
- Those 200m/s do not alter the way you approach the ship in any way. They act and handle like BC, or slow Cruisers.
- With the upside ofc. that they have more firepower and utility on equal (or slightly better...) tank and mobility.
- Magnitudes are relative, they are ratio or intent. If you demand a definition, let's say it's closer to a 1000m/s relative than a 100m/s one.

I presume your nano Phoon do not rush sniper Talos and crush 100km on them, or am i wrong?


Certain Faction ships are a bit different:
You could potentially push them up a magnitude with Snakes and Lokis, but is that what you are doing?

- After all, a typical two-nano Cane is also a BC and with Lokis it reaches the odd 2km/s as well (3km with heat).
- That's what set the Cane slightly apart from the other tier 2 BC or nano BS, but it is not quite a full magnitude.
- It's also the same speed a 1600mm plated Deimos reaches. A ship some people consider "not fast enough".
- A gang of Deimos would love to fight Canes, nano fleet Phoons and possibly Blaster talos. Sniper Talos, not so much.

That's somewhere were the loose definition lie. Boosted Talos, Canes or Nano Phoons reach the borderland inbetween typical Cruiser-sized modules and faster Cruiser-sized ships that push into a smaller bracket or magnitude. Give a Cynabal the same treatment and it's still a magnitude ahead, being flown in a different way. As it should be, balanced.

You are definately right that a Fleet Phoon can push the boundaries, but that's part of the argument i made Smile.

On average nano BS reflect the respective handling of BC equivalent, in turn relative that of Cruisers. It makes sense.

This is one of those explanations that is worth keeping in mind the next time a "buff ship X" thread appear and someone argue the speed and handling of the ship. See that the actual balance is symbiotic: from setup to class and bonus.

ed. No chip on your shoulder though, i guess i didn't define it properly until this post.
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