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The hulk has a touch too little tank still
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Dyvout Minerson
Green Seekers
#41 - 2012-08-06 03:52:40 UTC
Ooda wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Ooda wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Could you please explain to me in detail why you think this change is so hard on Null sec hulk users, naturally in the context of the hulk as a fleet ship?


I haven't said that it will make mining in Hulks impossible - I just said it will be more complicated, and this only for 0.0 (I assume low-sec miners aren't present anyway, but for the sake of the argument, they are affected aswell) miners. Other than that, they serve no purpose at all. There is no benefit, and no decision involved with them.

And that's the problem I have - changing stuff without the need for it, without accomplishing nothing else than inconvenience is - akward by design.

This is what I don't get how is it more complicated you choose either yield, cargo or tank and away you go. I think the main fault here is that you still want full yield but with no draw backs. Times change, Hell I am looking forward to skiff mining Lol


It is slightly "more" inconvenient to use 10 logi-drones instead of 5 and to move crystals from orca - hulk - strips instead of just from the hulks cargo into the strips. This has nothing do to with a decision between yield, tank or cargo. Noone will switch from Hulk to mack or skiff because of it - thus: this changes don't serve any purpose.

to make it even more clear: it is one thing to decide between hauling with an orca or using macks over hulks which just reduces the need to haul. This is a good change, and I fully support it. This is a decision which will have to be made in the future.

And here's the point you still haven't gotten: What is the point in reducing hulks crystal space so it can't fit a full rack for 0.0 clusters? Okey, it is annoying - but if you still use hulks after the change - you will have a hauler and can store them in jetcans/Corp-hangar. This doesn't go into the decision mentioned above, just because it is not more than a little annoying.

Decisions will be made between "Do I want to mine afk (Mack), for max yield (Hulk) or for max safety (skiff)". Oh, and regardless of which one you choose, you can make it work even in 0.0. How "annoying" it is will change nothing.

So again, what's the purpose of this, besides annoying 0-0 miners?



High sec, low sec, the crystals are a royal pain period. When I am in multi-corp ops with my Orca alt, the others cant get in to get their own crystals, meaning I have to shuffle them around and jettison. Game breaking? No. More inconvenience for no real reason? Oh yes.

..hmmm.. I don't remember switching chars.
Frying Doom
#42 - 2012-08-06 08:32:07 UTC
Dyvout Minerson wrote:
Ooda wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Ooda wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Could you please explain to me in detail why you think this change is so hard on Null sec hulk users, naturally in the context of the hulk as a fleet ship?


I haven't said that it will make mining in Hulks impossible - I just said it will be more complicated, and this only for 0.0 (I assume low-sec miners aren't present anyway, but for the sake of the argument, they are affected aswell) miners. Other than that, they serve no purpose at all. There is no benefit, and no decision involved with them.

And that's the problem I have - changing stuff without the need for it, without accomplishing nothing else than inconvenience is - akward by design.

This is what I don't get how is it more complicated you choose either yield, cargo or tank and away you go. I think the main fault here is that you still want full yield but with no draw backs. Times change, Hell I am looking forward to skiff mining Lol


It is slightly "more" inconvenient to use 10 logi-drones instead of 5 and to move crystals from orca - hulk - strips instead of just from the hulks cargo into the strips. This has nothing do to with a decision between yield, tank or cargo. Noone will switch from Hulk to mack or skiff because of it - thus: this changes don't serve any purpose.

to make it even more clear: it is one thing to decide between hauling with an orca or using macks over hulks which just reduces the need to haul. This is a good change, and I fully support it. This is a decision which will have to be made in the future.

And here's the point you still haven't gotten: What is the point in reducing hulks crystal space so it can't fit a full rack for 0.0 clusters? Okey, it is annoying - but if you still use hulks after the change - you will have a hauler and can store them in jetcans/Corp-hangar. This doesn't go into the decision mentioned above, just because it is not more than a little annoying.

Decisions will be made between "Do I want to mine afk (Mack), for max yield (Hulk) or for max safety (skiff)". Oh, and regardless of which one you choose, you can make it work even in 0.0. How "annoying" it is will change nothing.

So again, what's the purpose of this, besides annoying 0-0 miners?



High sec, low sec, the crystals are a royal pain period. When I am in multi-corp ops with my Orca alt, the others cant get in to get their own crystals, meaning I have to shuffle them around and jettison. Game breaking? No. More inconvenience for no real reason? Oh yes.

..hmmm.. I don't remember switching chars.

Just looks to me like you want maximum yield and that is it. This has been a re-balance and a good one.
It just comes down to the fact you cannot have your cake and eat it too. The re-balance was a much needed one and I for one am very happy at the end product.
If you want maximum yield you must make sacrifices.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Doddy
Excidium.
#43 - 2012-08-06 09:52:36 UTC
Ooda wrote:
Anazzar wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:



We understand roles




The hulk is no longer the be all and end all of mining ships it is a fleet ship



It is a crap-fleetship if it burns down before someone can kill the rats. I don't think this will happen, but you'll need a fit even more expensive than it is now allready. You're going to need a strong active tank - or someone repping them which could have been a miner on it's own. Especially in Drone Regions, where rats vary a lot more in dmg than in other spaces.




Well firstly they shouldn't often get shot since you have something that can tank (a skiff?) tanking the belt. Secondly if there is a respawn (really long mining op or ignorant ratter kills your tanked spawn) a hulk that is aggro'd can simply warp out (once in an hours long op, oh noes) assuming your defence can't deal with the rats (rats usually spawn some distance away and take time to agress then move towards and actually do damage leaving plenty of time to kill them). Finally even a new hulk can tank a normal 0.0 spawn with a flight of rep drones off an orca etc. nevermind the rep drones of all the hulks in a fleet.

Really its only a problem for the afk or the multiboxing, and eve is not designed around either of those forms of play.
Yui Okane-Mochi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-08-06 10:58:24 UTC
Doddy wrote:

Really its only a problem for the afk or the multiboxing, and eve is not designed around either of those forms of play.


The multiboxer runs a tight micromanaged fleet. He or she is constantly aware of what is needed where and when.

I'd say increases in complexity in fact favour multiboxers as the unpredictable human element is largely taken out of the equation.

結衣
Ooda
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-08-06 12:39:30 UTC
Doddy wrote:

Finally even a new hulk can tank a normal 0.0 spawn with a flight of rep drones off an orca etc. nevermind the rep drones of all the hulks in a fleet.


you perfectly described what the annoyance is - and no serious mining fleet will use a skiff just because it isn't needed anyway to tank the rats ;). This perfectly leads to the point where this changes purpose is to make mining more annoying (not by far, but still - more annyoing).
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#46 - 2012-08-06 19:14:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyella Stormborn
Frying Doom wrote:
Dyvout Minerson wrote:


High sec, low sec, the crystals are a royal pain period. When I am in multi-corp ops with my Orca alt, the others cant get in to get their own crystals, meaning I have to shuffle them around and jettison. Game breaking? No. More inconvenience for no real reason? Oh yes.

..hmmm.. I don't remember switching chars.

Just looks to me like you want maximum yield and that is it. This has been a re-balance and a good one.
It just comes down to the fact you cannot have your cake and eat it too. The re-balance was a much needed one and I for one am very happy at the end product.
If you want maximum yield you must make sacrifices.



?? I talk about crystals and multi-corp fleet ops, you manage to read that as I want maximum yield? /boggle

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Frying Doom
#47 - 2012-08-06 21:42:05 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Dyvout Minerson wrote:


High sec, low sec, the crystals are a royal pain period. When I am in multi-corp ops with my Orca alt, the others cant get in to get their own crystals, meaning I have to shuffle them around and jettison. Game breaking? No. More inconvenience for no real reason? Oh yes.

..hmmm.. I don't remember switching chars.

Just looks to me like you want maximum yield and that is it. This has been a re-balance and a good one.
It just comes down to the fact you cannot have your cake and eat it too. The re-balance was a much needed one and I for one am very happy at the end product.
If you want maximum yield you must make sacrifices.



?? I talk about crystals and multi-corp fleet ops, you manage to read that as I want maximum yield? /boggle

And in this fleet op you are not assigned 1 or 2 types or rock?
at 25m2 for T2 crystals that means you could easily carry 12 spare crystals. There was talk of fleet access to the orca but I don't know if that went any where I haven't tested that on SiSi.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#48 - 2012-08-07 06:15:56 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Dyvout Minerson wrote:


High sec, low sec, the crystals are a royal pain period. When I am in multi-corp ops with my Orca alt, the others cant get in to get their own crystals, meaning I have to shuffle them around and jettison. Game breaking? No. More inconvenience for no real reason? Oh yes.

..hmmm.. I don't remember switching chars.

Just looks to me like you want maximum yield and that is it. This has been a re-balance and a good one.
It just comes down to the fact you cannot have your cake and eat it too. The re-balance was a much needed one and I for one am very happy at the end product.
If you want maximum yield you must make sacrifices.



?? I talk about crystals and multi-corp fleet ops, you manage to read that as I want maximum yield? /boggle

And in this fleet op you are not assigned 1 or 2 types or rock?
at 25m2 for T2 crystals that means you could easily carry 12 spare crystals. There was talk of fleet access to the orca but I don't know if that went any where I haven't tested that on SiSi.


Fleet access? Now THAT would excite me. On smaller ops, its more free flowing (no assigning specific rocks, etc), and I only periodically check the Orca. On larger ops, I actually keep the Orca up on main screen. I have not heard anything about that change, but it would most definitely help a lot if they do implement it.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Sati Kerensky
Perkone
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-08-14 02:02:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Sati Kerensky
"You can only get either tank (Skiff), cargo (Mack) or yield (Hulk)" overlooks that little thing of pretty decent tank on the Mack. At least a good deal more than the Hulk, so Mack = super cargo + tank, Skiff = super tank + cargo, Hulk = somewhat better yield than the others.

"Hulk is a fleet ship, you don't need tank on it" - Never done any serious nullsec mining and we always take the first wave of sleepers out in WH belts, but in terms of suicide ganks in high, that argument doesn't hold up either since the aggro can't be managed ("No, gankers, go for the security, not the miners", yeah, right..) and the Hulk now has less EHP than before, the one thing it needs to survive even a cheaply fitted tier 3 BC.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#50 - 2012-08-14 08:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
If you learn to fit a Hulk properly you have more EHP than previously.
If you fit properly you should easily be capable of surviving a single volley from a tier 3 battlecruiser.

Ofcourse people still gank Hulks, but they now have options: Move to higher sec where concord reacts faster or use another barge/exhumer providing better security at the cost of yeld over time. So are you smart or just greedy?
Don't fly what you cannot afford to lose and always evaluate your own security.

Before this revamp people would not be capable of protecting miners in lowsec areas (even with ecm, rr and dps guards), but now where mackinaws and skiffs tank better a well prepared fleet can mine in lowsec and expect to have a chance with the right preparations (no guarantees).

Pinky
Sati Kerensky
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-08-14 15:56:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Sati Kerensky
Pinky Denmark wrote:
If you learn to fit a Hulk properly you have more EHP than previously.
If you fit properly you should easily be capable of surviving a single volley from a tier 3 battlecruiser.

You're again going with the argument of reducing yield. If I do that, lose one MLUs, I'll be even closer to the Mack in terms of yield (or even below if I lose both), while still having less EHP.

And moving to higher sec, yeah, sure. I'll just go to 0.9 or 1.0 with my ships designed for null and mine not even the +10% ores, again giving up the yield I'll get with a Mack.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#52 - 2012-08-15 00:23:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
Sati Kerensky wrote:
You're again going with the argument of reducing yield. If I do that, lose one MLUs, I'll be even closer to the Mack in terms of yield (or even below if I lose both), while still having less EHP.

And moving to higher sec, yeah, sure. I'll just go to 0.9 or 1.0 with my ships designed for null and mine not even the +10% ores, again giving up the yield I'll get with a Mack.

I did by no means suggest a proper Hulk included fitting less MLU's but the new Hulk has a better tank with MORE ehp than before... If that isn't good enough then use a Mackinaw or Skiff... (it's called balance)

CCP doesn't want you to be 100% safe in your Hulk
The Hulk is the best miner, but if you are too greedy to protect yourself you deserve to lose the Hulk.

Try to be smart instead of crying about the most fragile exhumer not being safe in the hi-sec system with the longest concord delay when you don't want to fit a decent tank... Whats worst? Not being able to reach the largest theoretical yeld or losing a 300m ship pr week while mining a little bit faster?
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-08-15 22:17:50 UTC
yeah hulks are for fleets now and thus would have protection pluss for solo belt rats go get a couple of drones np on that front persides takes one cycle to fill hulks ore bay now. if you want a solo miner ide go look at the skiff as its ore per cycle is only down 300 from the hulks and it has a 35k ore bay.
darkenspace
Imperial AMARR White Kights
#54 - 2012-08-27 13:59:13 UTC
well look at the up side hulks prices are real low right now and only going to drop soon they wont cost much at all no one will buy them
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