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ASB is BULL.

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#401 - 2012-08-14 19:04:49 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:

Fixed that for you.

The comparisons that do not count the reloads are stupid and shouldn't even be mentioned. They prove nothing in a real PvP scenario. When the reload comes up , you will die if you are using a single shield booster. You will never be able to tank your theoretical "138k ehp". So like I said, Unless you found an exploit that you are using to not reload these boosters.. Half of your post is basically worthless. It is a bunch of theory crafting that will never ever happen.

Moving on.

"dual ASB is stronger than active armor tanking." Ok so what? And armor buffer is stronger than shield buffer. This how CCP keeps shield and armor as two different things. If you are suggesting to make armor and shields perfectly the same then you should stop posting, because that is a terrible idea that will dull the game.

Plus a 480dps tank isn't even impressive. It will die to a single hurricane or drakes dps.

Also: An active tank being able to tank more than a buffer over a period of time is work as intended. So at this point you are arguing with the developers. Slaves or not, this is how the game is intended to be. And it is fine.


Also make your posts more clear so people can actually understand what you are saying. Currently it is a mess.


A few comments:
- Those stats were before reload - eg your entire rant about how you'll die when you reload is kinda moot.
- You do not in fact die when you reload. A Cyclone will die on the first reload if and only if it's taking more than 800 DPS.
- Dual and oversized ASBs being stronger than a bonused active tank is in fact a major concern.
- You say that a 480 DPS tank isn't even impressive, yet that's about what a dual rep Myrmidon tanks and people have always raved about that. It's about what an XL Cyclone tanked too - and people always raved about that too. Stories abounded of both of those tanking small gangs and killing people. Maybe there's more to the story than simple DPS vs Tank+EHP? ;-)
- His post was more concise and clear than yours.

-Liang


I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Pipa Porto
#402 - 2012-08-14 19:55:24 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

- You do not in fact die when you reload. A Cyclone will die on the first reload if and only if it's taking more than 800 DPS.
- Dual and oversized ASBs being stronger than a bonused active tank is in fact a major concern.
- You say that a 480 DPS tank isn't even impressive, yet that's about what a dual rep Myrmidon tanks and people have always raved about that. It's about what an XL Cyclone tanked too - and people always raved about that too. Stories abounded of both of those tanking small gangs and killing people. Maybe there's more to the story than simple DPS vs Tank+EHP? ;-)
- His post was more concise and clear than yours.


Just to point out, 800 DPS is about what 2 BCs put out. Traditional active Tanking is great for limited sized engagements (with the ability to operate in said small engagements for a long time), and not very good for larger engagements. The ASB extends the envelope of Active Tanking usefulness in engagement size at the cost of engagement length.

480 DPS is a great tank when it keeps going, so the person trying to kill the Myrm has to keep breaking through that rep until the Myrm finally dies.

With the ASB, you just have to put enough damage on to keep them repping, then kill them on the reload. Or with the dual ASB, either force them to run both (if Dual Large), or kill them when they run out of charges since, if they're Sub-BS, they're not going to be doing all that much with the rest of their fit (if Dual X-Large). If they're in a BS, keep them tackled with something small and keep swatting drones while you whittle away at their ASB charges, then kill them when they're out.

Dual Oversized ASB fits do make great Bait though.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#403 - 2012-08-14 20:16:28 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

- You do not in fact die when you reload. A Cyclone will die on the first reload if and only if it's taking more than 800 DPS.
- Dual and oversized ASBs being stronger than a bonused active tank is in fact a major concern.
- You say that a 480 DPS tank isn't even impressive, yet that's about what a dual rep Myrmidon tanks and people have always raved about that. It's about what an XL Cyclone tanked too - and people always raved about that too. Stories abounded of both of those tanking small gangs and killing people. Maybe there's more to the story than simple DPS vs Tank+EHP? ;-)
- His post was more concise and clear than yours.


Just to point out, 800 DPS is about what 2 BCs put out. Traditional active Tanking is great for limited sized engagements (with the ability to operate in said small engagements for a long time), and not very good for larger engagements. The ASB extends the envelope of Active Tanking usefulness in engagement size at the cost of engagement length.

480 DPS is a great tank when it keeps going, so the person trying to kill the Myrm has to keep breaking through that rep until the Myrm finally dies.

With the ASB, you just have to put enough damage on to keep them repping, then kill them on the reload. Or with the dual ASB, either force them to run both (if Dual Large), or kill them when they run out of charges since, if they're Sub-BS, they're not going to be doing all that much with the rest of their fit (if Dual X-Large). If they're in a BS, keep them tackled with something small and keep swatting drones while you whittle away at their ASB charges, then kill them when they're out.

Dual Oversized ASB fits do make great Bait though.


Yes, of course. However, I think that it's a bit of a stretch to say that it decreases the possible engagement length. In many ways, you can get superior long term performance out of an ASB simply because you would never have been able to effectively run that tank in a more traditional manner.

I did the math earlier in the thread, but an XL ASB Cyclone can tank 800 DPS for almost 5 minutes. Once you start looking towards bait fits with multiple oversized ASBs, the situation becomes truly ridiculous.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Pipa Porto
#404 - 2012-08-14 20:34:40 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Yes, of course. However, I think that it's a bit of a stretch to say that it decreases the possible engagement length. In many ways, you can get superior long term performance out of an ASB simply because you would never have been able to effectively run that tank in a more traditional manner.

I did the math earlier in the thread, but an XL ASB Cyclone can tank 800 DPS for almost 5 minutes. Once you start looking towards bait fits with multiple oversized ASBs, the situation becomes truly ridiculous.

-Liang



So 2 BCs is kind of the breaking point of the XL ASB Cyclone. 800 DPS for 5m. Add another BC, and you get 1200 DPS(ish), which is just about what it'll tank running the OH rep constantly for 45s, and then about 30s later, the EHP will be chewed through.

So vs 2 BCs, the XL ASB survives for 5m, dealing 106k damage, so it's got a good chance of killing one (the other one should run away when it's clear they're losing). Vs 3 BCs, it survives for 75s, dealing 26k damage, so it's got very little chance of killing anything.

As for Bait, multiple Oversized ASBs run into a problem with their lack of Midslots available to do the most important thing for bait: Tackle. Bait's not worth much for catching fish if it doesn't have a couple hooks in it.

The ASB is designed to allow Active tanking to be useful in larger engagements than it used to be viable in. It's done that.

The ASB is different and powerful. It's going to take some time to get used to. I don't think you can really call it OP yet, since there are already very effective counters to it, and it's only been available for a short time.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#405 - 2012-08-14 21:06:12 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

The ASB is different and powerful. It's going to take some time to get used to. I don't think you can really call it OP yet, since there are already very effective counters to it, and it's only been available for a short time.


The only counter to the ASB is bringing more friends. Even time isn't necessarily on your side. And yes, I think it's absolutely possible to call it OP when you're much much better off fitting ASBs to a Myrmidon than triple deadspace armor reps.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Teemo Is-OP
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#406 - 2012-08-14 22:23:50 UTC
Freezehunter wrote:
So, I just had a test fight on SiSi.

It was a 1 v 1 fight versus a RATTLESNAKE in a BHAALGORN and I LOST.

My Bhaalgorn had 250 K EHP, 850 gun + 200 drone DPS, dual web, dual NOS, one neutralizer, one tracking computer with tracking scripts, one target painter, one warp scrambler and 4 T2 pulses with COnflagration L crystals.

The other guy had a generic mission carebear fit like all rattlesnakes do, the typical super passive+crap boring drones and pathetic 150 dps cruise missiles setup.

I got the guy into 5% shield FIVE TIMES IN A ROW and he always bounced right up back to 70-100% in a few short seconds.

If this was a TQ fight I would have been pissed for losing a Bhaalgorn to a badly fit mission rattlesnake with two overpowered mods on it.

Any word on when you intend to NERF the ASB or at least limit the son of a ***** to ONE per ship, CCP?

The other day I had this guy in a MERLIN tank SIX GUYS in CA 1 in PVH for 8 consecutive minutes using ASB.

No seriously, when are you nerfing that?

If you're going to leave it like that, at least make armor repairers or armor plates repair armor passively when inactive and work like an ASB when activated.

Seriously CCP, ASB is OP right now.

Ideas for nerf:

1) Allow only one per ship.
OR
2) Remove shield passive recharge when you have ASB installed.
OR
3) Increase cooldown by one minute for every new ASB installed.
OR
4) Restrict certain item sizes to ships of that size and over. (AKA you can only have an XL shield booster or ASB on a battleship, you can however choose to use mediums, larges or smalls. On BCs the max would be large. On Cruisers it would be medium. On frigates it would be small.)
OR
5) A mix between 1) and 2) and/or 3) or a mix between 3) and 4), or any variation that makes sense from a balancing standpoint.

Come on CCP, what happened to your balancing lately, it's like you always decide to make a change and either exagerate it to hell (ASB) or make it almost completely useless and broken and pre-nerfed (like the new crap armor resistance). It's as if the guy whose job is to balance **** in this MMO only plays FPS games or something, and has no clue how to do it right. Either that or we're being Dev trolled... again.


I don't know if he will be able to bounce back from that
Pipa Porto
#407 - 2012-08-14 23:26:50 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

The ASB is different and powerful. It's going to take some time to get used to. I don't think you can really call it OP yet, since there are already very effective counters to it, and it's only been available for a short time.


The only counter to the ASB is bringing more friends. Even time isn't necessarily on your side. And yes, I think it's absolutely possible to call it OP when you're much much better off fitting ASBs to a Myrmidon than triple deadspace armor reps.

-Liang


Or to extend the engagement until he runs out of charges. Not an option really for Buffer tanked fits, but perfectly valid for Active Tanked ships.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#408 - 2012-08-14 23:39:10 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

Or to extend the engagement until he runs out of charges. Not an option really for Buffer tanked fits, but perfectly valid for Active Tanked ships.


But it isn't necessarily a valid tactic for active tanked ships either. An XL ASB Cyclone can easily out last a regular XL Cyclone. And we haven't even started talking about how ASBs are better on a Myrm than triple deadspace reps.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#409 - 2012-08-15 00:43:00 UTC
I can tank a shield-Hurricanes damage with a Drake using 1 Large Ancillary Shield Booster (over heated). In another engagement I did the same 'barely' against 1 zealot @ 40,000m using scorch and 2 Vagabonds @ 30 - 35,000 range (damage reduced because of falloff). This engagement was a 4 versus 17. There was a X - Large Ancillary Shield Booster Cyclone and Vagabond we esploded. We basically had 2 of my Anser-Drake setups and 1 armor-Rupture.

Mind you, the aforementioned drake has 2 Large Ancillary Shield Booster.

^That above is just a statement. I'm not using it as an argument against or for keeping this mechanic.



1 of these modules alone is very powerful. Clearly given enough ships you can esplode a ship with a Ancillary Shield Booster. Same can be said about any ship really. 2 or more Ancillary Shield Boosters on certain ships necessitates a sizeable amount of ships to destroy them. There by increasing the amount of ships needed to engage in the current enviroment.


Why not limit the module to 1 per ship? I have no interest in getting rid of the module, but limiting it to 1 per ship seems the correct move. Even though just 1 of these modules is already p powerful.


- end of transmission

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#410 - 2012-08-16 10:16:40 UTC
Tonight was awesome. I was unstoppable in my ASB Executioner!

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Freezehunter
#411 - 2012-08-20 16:34:13 UTC
*cough* sorry.

Inappropriate signature, CCP Phantom.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#412 - 2012-08-20 18:11:16 UTC
Freezehunter wrote:
*cough* sorry.


I fit up my Executioner with an ASB and I was able to tank a Vexor with it. Who says that Vexors are anti-frigate ships? Lol

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#413 - 2012-08-20 19:37:37 UTC
ASBS tanking more than their x typed equivalents w/o the cap issues = extremely broken, even if only limited to 1 per ship. The module needs a whole rewrite or honestly a simple removal... Those of you arguing that it's balanced because you can tank 2 bcs even while heavily nueted but cant tank 3 bcs and that's why it's balanced seems so foolish at best... It's a 3v1 brawling situation where you're using a tech 1 shield booster fighting ships of the same class, of course you should lose...
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#414 - 2012-08-20 22:53:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Orakkus
Liang Nuren wrote:

I fit up my Executioner with an ASB and I was able to tank a Vexor with it. Who says that Vexors are anti-frigate ships? Lol

-Liang


I hope you don't mean this kill: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14391358, cuz it looks like you fitting up two additional T2 Frigs and a Ruppy along with your ASB.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#415 - 2012-08-20 23:22:23 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

I fit up my Executioner with an ASB and I was able to tank a Vexor with it. Who says that Vexors are anti-frigate ships? Lol

-Liang


I hope you don't mean this kill: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14391358, cuz it looks like you fitting up two additional T2 Frigs and a Ruppy along with your ASB.


I didn't say that I killed him. I said that I tanked him. His neuts were enough to consistently turn off my guns and AB, but not enough to turn off the scram or (obviously) ASB. Or do you think it's just easy peasy to tank a neut Vexor in a no HP frigate.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#416 - 2012-08-21 00:40:46 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

I didn't say that I killed him. I said that I tanked him. His neuts were enough to consistently turn off my guns and AB, but not enough to turn off the scram or (obviously) ASB. Or do you think it's just easy peasy to tank a neut Vexor in a no HP frigate.

-Liang


But that is the whole point isn't it. How long did the battle actually last? Did you tank him for a while or just for the few moments that it took for your fleet to arrive? That Vexor's drone DPS was likely poor (no drone damage mods? Really?), and he didn't have any other weapon system available to him so, that is all he could rely on. Second, look at that Vexor config. No speed mods coupled with a 9k scram? Defense Field Purger Rigs? Shoot, considering how there were only five medium drones in the bay, he probably was trying to kill ya with his first flight of Medium drones (or did take the first flight of light drones out?).

A bad fit doesn't prove that ASBs are overpowered. If he had dropped in some short range blasters in place of the salvage gear and chased you with light drones instead of mediums, he probably would have ended your trip in short order, ASB or no.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#417 - 2012-08-21 01:52:51 UTC
Orakkus wrote:

But that is the whole point isn't it. How long did the battle actually last? Did you tank him for a while or just for the few moments that it took for your fleet to arrive? That Vexor's drone DPS was likely poor (no drone damage mods? Really?), and he didn't have any other weapon system available to him so, that is all he could rely on. Second, look at that Vexor config. No speed mods coupled with a 9k scram? Defense Field Purger Rigs? Shoot, considering how there were only five medium drones in the bay, he probably was trying to kill ya with his first flight of Medium drones (or did take the first flight of light drones out?).

A bad fit doesn't prove that ASBs are overpowered. If he had dropped in some short range blasters in place of the salvage gear and chased you with light drones instead of mediums, he probably would have ended your trip in short order, ASB or no.


A few comments:
- Drone damage mods are very new, yet Vexors have a very old reputation as frigate killers.
- A dual neut fit is a classic frig killing fit. Yet somehow it's now a "bad fit".
- We scooped his Warriors when he died.
- He took 17k raw damage from 2 frigates dealing ~100-150 EFT DPS each. I wasn't able to effectively shoot him at all.

Anyway, this is hardly an interesting outcome. I rather liked face tanking and solo killing a thrasher at 3km and a Hawk at 5km.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#418 - 2012-08-21 02:10:23 UTC
I'm not going to lie - I hated the ASB at first as I thought it was a broken mechanic. I complained about it in the forums and cursed CCP for its ignorance. In fact, I think i did so in this very thread.

I was wrong.

Prior to the ASB, buffer ruled in ALL pvp except for some very limited circumstances where you had a solo or small group completely pimped out with links and implants and drugs killing small gangs who were (not every time, but often) terrible. These were the things that cool pvp videos were made of. The cost and logistics of creating this uber 'solo' ship are far beyond the capabilities of the average eve player. I love flying armor rep ships, but outside of a very limited set of circumstances, it just doesnt work very well.

Now, with ASBs, active tanking (shield only) is superior for solo/small gangs, and buffer is still superior for fleets. It gives both tanking styles a niche.

And it DOES have weaknesses. You have to survive 54 seconds with a reasonable tank left and then the ASB guy dies. Or, you can just alpha through it. And since most ASB fits have even less buffer than normal, they are easy to alpha. You also have to gimp your fit considerably to fit an oversized one, so your dps is going to drop over a buffer fit.

My sole complaint about it now is that there is not a similar armor module. Having to fit 2 or 3 active reps + 1 or 2 cap boosters to rival the tank of an ASB has just highlighted how bad armor tanking is in comparison. They need to give us (not the exact same) a similar armor module, or make armor reps have a larger burst (e.g. Make a single rep = 2 current reps) but still rely on cap boosters. If they did, I would be the happiest clam in the sea. I wouldnt mind them considering just one per ship, but lets wait till just before next patch and see how this ASB thing settles out. I think I like it.

But give me a similar-ish armor module please. The RAH doesnt cut it.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#419 - 2012-08-21 04:29:42 UTC
Hrett wrote:
I'm not going to lie - I hated the ASB at first as I thought it was a broken mechanic. I complained about it in the forums and cursed CCP for its ignorance. In fact, I think i did so in this very thread.

I was wrong.


I realize it's cool to be able to tank 5-7 battlecruisers for a couple of minutes, but that doesn't make you wrong earlier in the thread. It just means you've been seduced by an imbalanced game mechanic.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Pipa Porto
#420 - 2012-08-21 04:45:29 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Hrett wrote:
I'm not going to lie - I hated the ASB at first as I thought it was a broken mechanic. I complained about it in the forums and cursed CCP for its ignorance. In fact, I think i did so in this very thread.

I was wrong.


I realize it's cool to be able to tank 5-7 battlecruisers for a couple of minutes, but that doesn't make you wrong earlier in the thread. It just means you've been seduced by an imbalanced game mechanic.

-Liang


Except that you can't. As we detailed above, an X-L ASB Cyclone will hold off 2 BCs for ~5m, and 3 until it's first reload.

A Double X-L Maelstrom can tank about 1500 DPS (though you have to drop to 650s to fit) cold, which is about 4 BCs running both. Heated, it'll tank ~2k DPS, which will keep it alive against about 5 BCs, but only until reload, at which point it's 60k EHP buffer will disappear in 30s (45s to the 4 BCs it can hold off unheated).

So you can't tank 5-7 BCs for a couple of minutes.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto