These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

Forum Index

EVE Forums » EVE Gameplay Center » Ships & Modules » Thoughts about the mining barge and exhumer changes

Topic is locked indefinitely.

Thoughts about the mining barge and exhumer changes
Author

Previous Topic Next Topic

Pipa Porto

Likes received: 1,548

#41 - 2012-08-14 21:31:47 UTC

Shereza wrote:

It also isn't accurate, not when comparing maximum possible yields. It's closer to 15%. IIRC it's 15.56% ore and 8.3% ice in favor of the hulk when comparing it to a mackinaw using T2 lasers (and crystals where applicable), rigs where applicable, low slots full of T2 uprades, and the T2 yield gang link on an All 5 orca pilot with the mind link.

As for hulks in 0.0 belts when battleship rats spawn, hulks could already tank a lot of them pre-1.2 and 1.2 gave them a 20% boost to their base EHP with the majority of it going to their shields. If you can't tank belt rats after that boost, and despite the reduction in resistances it is a boost, while you could before you're probably doing something very wrong. You're doing something even more wrong if you're in a fleet which, by rights, should include an orca or two and eat least one orca should be fit with the mining cycle time link, a shield harmonizing link, and a large remote shield booster and battleship spawns are giving you trouble.

Rechecked using EFT and CCP's numbers and you're right, it's around 15%, which is still pretty significant.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Tassian Marrix

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 2

#42 - 2012-08-15 02:58:30 UTC

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Tassian Marrix wrote:

So lower skiff/proc and mack/ret to ~50% of the hulks yield instead of the ~75-80 they are now and increase hulk tank? Why would i use anything but a hulk after that? I still only use hulks for mining ore now. The yield on the hulk didn't change you just need to use another ship if you want to avoid jetcan mining. All proposed changes in this thread are terrible.

Mackinaw is actually about 79% of the yield of a hulk and retriever is about 87% yield of a covetor, all with max skills. The gap actually decreases with lower skills, down to a mackinaw having about 85% yield of a hulk with exhumers 1, and a retriever having about 97% yield of a covetor with mining barges 1. The gap is actually significant in exhumers, but still not enough to account for the other tremendous advantages of the medium-sized barges.

1.) It takes a mackinaw around 30-35 minutes to fill up its ore hold, if the operator has good supportive mining skills. It then takes around 3 minutes to warp to station, drop off the ore, and come back. That's an up time of just over 90%.

2.) If a hulk were to mine till it fills up with ore and then turn it in to the station, it would spend around 7-8 minutes mining and the same 3 minutes (or longer) returning the ore. That's an up time of around 70%.

3.) If the hulk were to jet-can the ore and pick it up in an iteron mark v (38k m3) every time there was enough for 3 trips (to minimize time lost), then the hulk would mine for about an hour and a half, and then the iteron mark v would spend a little over 10 minutes picking up the ore and taking it back to the station. That's an up time of around 90%.

In example 2, the hulk (assuming the yield is 26% greater) would mine at about 97% of the rate of the mackinaw in example 1. That's with max skills. At exhumers 1, the gap would be much more significant.

In example 3, the hulk is mining about 25% faster than the mackinaw in example 1, at the cost of having all of the ore vulnerable while it mines; the ship has around 30% less HP than a mackinaw (and is a tighter fit for defense); and you have to constantly be there pretty much the whole time. You can't leave for more than about 6-9 minutes at a time. And then you might even have to worry about your jet cans popping if the boredom makes you lose your concentration. Compare that to mining in a Mackinaw, in which you can be away for 80-90% of the time you're mining.

I don't know why you mine in a hulk, and judging by your poor math skills, I don't think you do either.

So you show that I have the same up time in a hulk when i haul for myself and mine 21% more during that up time but you cannot figure out why i would do so? Who's math skills are sub-par here? You can't afk easier in a mack while mining ore as the rocks pop faster then in a hulk (unless you're an idiot and put all 3 lasers on the same rock) so I have to be at the computer about the same amount.

Just so you know In the time I fill 5 jet cans and haul them to station i can fill 3 mack loads. So 105km3 vs. 137km3 for the same time expenditure. My cans might be subject to flipping if I mined in a system with more then 3 people in it at one time. Real application vs. your theory crafting shows more profit in a hulk.

Your proposed changes would mean the ONLY ship to mine in would be a hulk. No other ship would be worth even glancing at as you jumped into the hulk. Why would ccp ever want to implement such poorly thought out ideas.

Ruareve

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 113

#43 - 2012-08-15 04:54:59 UTC

I created some fits in EHQ for the barges and exhumers and found an interesting result. While the Hulk had the most yield when I added in enough tank to survive a gank I found the gap between the Hulk and Skiff was very small. I also found putting tank on the Mackinaw caused it to have the lowest yield of the three Exhumers.

The problem with the current version of the Hulk is the compromise required between max yield and having enough tank to stay alive in high sec. The base tank settings are too low for fleet operations where the attacker has every advantage. What I would like to see happen is the Hulk given a baseline of 8,000 shield HP. Then the miner can fit max yield modules and not have to worry about getting ganked by a destroyer or two.

The Mack could use a boost to it's base shield HP as well. The Skiff will still be the tankiest, but the other two should have enough tank to require some effort be put into killing them in high sec.

Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/

Paikis

Vapour Holdings

Likes received: 1,421

#44 - 2012-08-15 05:45:32 UTC

Ruareve wrote:

The Mack could use a boost to it's base shield HP as well. The Skiff will still be the tankiest, but the other two should have enough tank to require some effort be put into killing them in high sec.

The entire point of this change was so that you had to CHOSE which ship to use in which situation. If you want destroyers to have issues ganking you, use a skiff. Whats the point of having a ship with uber tank, when there's another one you can use that will give you more yield and still make it hard to gank?

CCP has got it about right. If you want to be gank proof, use a skiff. If you want a large cargo hold for AFK-ish mining, use a Mack, and if you want max yield at the expense of needing support, then use a Hulk.

Can we please stop asking for a return to the status-quo of hulk as default 'best' mining ship in all circumstances?

Terraferma K10

Doomheim

Likes received: 25

#45 - 2012-08-15 08:20:29 UTC

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

[quote=Tassian Marrix]2.) If a hulk were to mine till it fills up with ore and then turn it in to the station, it would spend around 7-8 minutes mining and the same 3 minutes (or longer) returning the ore. That's an up time of around 70%.

3.) If the hulk were to jet-can the ore and pick it up in an iteron mark v (38k m3) every time there was enough for 3 trips (to minimize time lost), then the hulk would mine for about an hour and a half, and then the iteron mark v would spend a little over 10 minutes picking up the ore and taking it back to the station. That's an up time of around 90%.

Hulk pilots don't return to station or haul their own jetcans.

Welcome to the mining profession, cookies and drinks are on the table over there.


Tassian Marrix Caldari Provisions Caldari State Likes received: 2	#46 - 2012-08-15 08:26:11 UTC Terraferma K10 wrote: Hulk pilots don't return to station or haul their own jetcans. Welcome to the mining profession, cookies and drinks are on the table over there. They do if they have no alt's and want the most yield per hour. But thanks for the cookies.

Pipa Porto

Likes received: 1,548

#47 - 2012-08-15 10:47:37 UTC | Edited by: Pipa Porto

Ruareve wrote:

Here's a Hulk fit that cannot be killed if flown properly. It's a Fleet fit (as befits the Hulk's role as a Fleet ship), so you do need at least 2 of them. As a bonus, it mines great, an Orca can keep up with it, and drifting out of mining range isn't a significant concern.

You also need a safe spot (preferably at least 2) or a POS to warp to.

[Hulk, Spidah Minah]

Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Cargohold Optimization I
Medium Cargohold Optimization I (Hey, they reduce your max speed by 1m/s, and now you've now got plenty of space for crystals)

Zainou 'Gypsy' Electronics EE-603

If you want to sit there and take a Suicide Ganker's beating like a dumb post, the Skiff is designed just for you.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Ubiquitous Newt

The F-Bombers

Likes received: 6

#48 - 2012-08-24 00:25:38 UTC | Edited by: Ubiquitous Newt

Pipa Porto wrote:

The new balance rewards effort (sitting an doing that oh-so-painful 15 clicks an hour) with 15% extra yield.

Pipa Porto wrote:

meaning you have to pay more attention to your mining than you do with a Hulk.

So, this is interesting; at first glance, it looks like you can't make up your mind. "The hulk is more effort, or The Mack is? Make up your mind..."

The reality is, they're darn close to the same amount of effort, unless you are fortunate to find some BIG 'roids and wander away from the computer. The Mack trades less yield for better tank and doing it's own hauling... So the difference basically comes down to higher yield for group mining, which...duh.

Frankly, I think Hulk mining in a reasonably secure system with an indy parked in the station is good enough. Jetcan for 60-90mins, come clean up. enjoy the higher yield. The only fly in this ointment is the addition of more cargohold micromanagement...which is a pretty unlovely move by CCP overall, and I'm not exactly thrilled with & neither are most miners. If you are really semi-AFK and can't bear to come to the screen every 3 minutes...which as boring as mining is, we certainly can't fault you for...use a Mack. I sure will, unless I am just *dying* for fast-isk.

Wait; that doesn't work either, because as Pipa pointed out - they're really comparable amounts of work because of popping asteroids. Ahh, just screw it, 'kay? We got a tanking buff, and now the Hulk is a nerfed, cargo-juggling pain-in-the-ass. It's just how it's gonna be. "Don't mine," is my advice. If you can't find anything more interesting to do, cancel and find a game that sucks less.

Pipa Porto

Likes received: 1,548

#49 - 2012-08-24 03:43:22 UTC

Ubiquitous Newt wrote:

Pipa Porto wrote:

The new balance rewards effort (sitting an doing that oh-so-painful 15 clicks an hour) with 15% extra yield.

Pipa Porto wrote:

meaning you have to pay more attention to your mining than you do with a Hulk.

It looks like you don't understand the concept of "context."

An AFK fit Mack runs Ice lasers. Zreo Clicking + 45min = Full Mack.
An Ore Mack requires slightly more clicking (to retarget) than a Hulk, but is useful if you don't have a hauler.
An Ore Hulk requires slightly less clicking (to retarget) but more clicking to clear the Ore holds.

If you're annoyed with the crystals, anchor a GSC in the belt (clear a pocket, anchor it in the middle of where the roids spawn, etc.), or grab some Cargo expanders, or use an Orca (just because you found a way to make the Hulk useful without Hauler support doesn't mean it's designed for that).

So for your final, summary point, you're saying that the Hulk and Mack take the same effort, but the Hulk mines 15% more so the Hulk's a pain in the ass? Ooookay....

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Reaver Glitterstim

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 3,058

#50 - 2012-09-03 04:31:53 UTC | Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim

Pipa Porto wrote:

I keep having to make the same point over and over again because you still haven't refuted it.

I have refuted it but you're just incapable of understanding simple figures. Yet I've made it even easier for you by pointing to statistics. PEOPLE DON'T FLY HULKS MUCH ANYMORE. And the few who do are like you--bad at math.

Pipa Porto wrote:

on top of the fact that, with HS roids being so small, you can't AFK for any significant amount of time anyway.

I found this a bit higher up. Dunno why I didn't say anything about it. But......
My highsec roids last around 15-25 minutes apiece. Are you just not mining in the right spot? It doesn't take all that much searching to find big asteroids in 0.5 and 0.6 space. They'll even respawn in the same belts so once you find one you're good. And you can also mine in missions, there are some tremendous roids in those.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Previous page123