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New awesome modular POS
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Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#21 - 2012-08-14 04:27:39 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:
I really really like the moon mining idea. It allows a good compromise between active and passive moon goo mining. I would up the amount per hour of passive though so that an alliance without the resources to actively mine still has a reason to do the passive, I would guess the right amount would be 25% (25 per hour vice 100) instead of 3% you suggest...dont want T2 prices to skyrocket, just bump up. This idea forces cooperation and can really shake things up. Well done.

25 per cent is fine with me. Maybe even 50% at first time, to see if it works out, then nerf it a bit.

Loius Woo wrote:
I would add one thing that i think POSes have needed for a long time, drone bays. Instead of having just guns and EWAR, allow players to put drone and fighter bays on the pos that will launch automatically when aggressed. WIth a big enough POS, fitting Fighter bomber bays should be possible.

Dont you think drones would be slaughtered at first minutes of the attack?
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-08-14 16:37:02 UTC
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
Loius Woo wrote:
Active tanking poses is a bad idea IMO.

Why?
And why not offgrid energy transfer?
If you think active tanking makes modular POS over powered - it's not true. Passive tanking can be even more OP. There should be modules that increase the amount of shield, righ? Otherwise small and large starbases having same amount of shield - looks ridiculous. And how many shield extenders can you fit on your POS? A crap load. Isn't it OP?


Think of it in terms of scale ability.

If we can anchor POSes anywhere we want regardless of proximity to moons, then a large alliance could put up a thousand POSes in their home system and have them all remote repping each other....which means that all of them would be impossible to destroy ever.

That is bad game design because it scales TOO well.

If we were going to continue to be restricted to moons only, then possibly off grid remote rep would be ok, but it would still be OP.

The passive tanking doesn't scale beyond a single POS so there is a finite limit and a reduced margin of utility with each shield hardener.

Whereas the remote repping from off grid combined with unlimited POSes means that there is a linear increase towards infinity in utility of adding one more POS.

Thats called a broken game.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-08-14 16:39:10 UTC
Sinzor Aumer wrote:

Dont you think drones would be slaughtered at first minutes of the attack?


Nope.

They would be ignored completely, or they would pop a few ships... Just like POS guns.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-08-14 17:05:58 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:
Sinzor Aumer wrote:

Dont you think drones would be slaughtered at first minutes of the attack?


Nope.

They would be ignored completely, or they would pop a few ships... Just like POS guns.

More like hilariously fragile POS guns.
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#25 - 2012-08-14 18:04:16 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:
If we can anchor POSes anywhere we want regardless of proximity to moons, then a large alliance could put up a thousand POSes in their home system and have them all remote repping each other....which means that all of them would be impossible to destroy ever.

I'd say you dont even approach them ever. Because they will protect each other with guns, dealing almost infinite DPS. Yes, this is a broken game. And it's one of the reasons to anchor POSes only to the moons, far away from each other.

Loius Woo wrote:
The passive tanking doesn't scale beyond a single POS so there is a finite limit...

But it's wrong!
It is true now, when we have fix-sized towers. But when we pass to scalable modular POS - there is no limit even within a single starbase. As long as you can power them, you can set up dozens of defensive modules - shield extenders, hardeners, booster, whatever. Doesn't matter if they are "passive" or "active" - they can easily become OP. So developers need to be very careful designing them, once again - doesn't matter active or passive.

But I believe active tanking is just more interesting.
It's like - if you use passive modules, they should consume some constant power. So when you deploy your POS, you energy plan is plain and simple. On the other hand, active modules consume capacitor only when there comes trouble. So you have to keep in mind two cases - peace and war. You will want your POS to be energy efficient when in peace, but still be able to provide enough power when attacked. Such energy planning is a bit more tricky - and I like that.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#26 - 2012-08-14 18:25:52 UTC
Er ... eh. Starbases should be able to be placed anywhere. It just makes sense, and it allows for interesting things to happen. And you should be able to build them up until you can't afford the fuel bill anymore.

The only idea from CCP that I'm not fond of on this topic is the jump drive. I'd get rid of all the jump drives if I could, from everything.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#27 - 2012-08-14 19:12:29 UTC
Mechael wrote:
Er ... eh. Starbases should be able to be placed anywhere. It just makes sense

AGRO_MODE=ON
What do you mean by "makes sense"? Is it physical science sense you're all talking about? Then why for stars sake we're all flying ships that have limitedabsolute speed? It doesn't makes sense! Demand fixing ASAP! Also requesting planets and moons moving on their orbits FTW! No sense they are stationary!
And Lagrangian points make sense. Do you know at least what are those points?

Mechael wrote:
and it allows for interesting things to happen.

Like billion of POSes in Jita? Like insta-popping everything that is not blue, due to the infinite mutual defense of hundred POSes? Or like bumping exploits, similar to bunny hopping in 3D shooters?
This infinite freedom that you wish so much can be awesome at first glance, but it will turn out super-buggy once implemented.

Quote:
The only idea from CCP that I'm not fond of on this topic is the jump drive.

+1 and AGRO_MODE=OFF
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-08-14 19:31:36 UTC
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
Mechael wrote:
Er ... eh. Starbases should be able to be placed anywhere. It just makes sense

AGRO_MODE=ON
What do you mean by "makes sense"? Is it physical science sense you're all talking about? Then why for stars sake we're all flying ships that have limitedabsolute speed? It doesn't makes sense! Demand fixing ASAP! Also requesting planets and moons moving on their orbits FTW! No sense they are stationary!
And Lagrangian points make sense. Do you know at least what are those points?

Mechael wrote:
and it allows for interesting things to happen.

Like billion of POSes in Jita? Like insta-popping everything that is not blue, due to the infinite mutual defense of hundred POSes? Or like bumping exploits, similar to bunny hopping in 3D shooters?
This infinite freedom that you wish so much can be awesome at first glance, but it will turn out super-buggy once implemented.

Quote:
The only idea from CCP that I'm not fond of on this topic is the jump drive.

+1 and AGRO_MODE=OFF


If you limit the total number per grid to some amount and prevent them from being within some proximity to each other you can limit their distribution and if the proximity is tuned right, impossible for too much mutual defense popping everything.

Also, you won't have millions of them in Jita because you would have to have a standing of 10 with caldari to anchor in Jita...so thats not that many people.

Where this will help is for people who want to try to live on their own in mostly empty low sec/null sec. Since you can't just warp to all the celestials and find all the POS's in 5 minutes anymore, there is some ability to hide in open space.

The jump drive idea is amazing.

As for the real physics of orbital mechanics, Eve doesn't have it. But it could someday and I think it would be awesome to actually put things into ORBITS...but then people who want to learn the game would need a masters level course in orbital mechanics to understand it....and that aint easy.
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#29 - 2012-08-15 04:59:55 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:
If you limit the total number per grid to some amount and prevent them from being within some proximity to each other you can limit their distribution and if the proximity is tuned right, impossible for too much mutual defense popping everything.

And if it's not tuned right? Could you remind me, what time did it take for the developers to tune the Drake right? Ah, just remembered - it's not tuned yet, sorry for stupid question.
And fixing POSes would be much more difficult, as you can’t just spread them, if they're already set up too close.

Loius Woo wrote:
Also, you won't have millions of them in Jita because you would have to have a standing of 10 with caldari to anchor in Jita...so thats not that many people.

Mitsolen then, whatever – it has ice field btw. People would soon figure out the optimal spot to set their POSes, and will crowd it. With barren desert elsewhere. The universe of EVE will collapse into the black hole of Jita... or Mitsolen.

Loius Woo wrote:
Where this will help is for people who want to try to live on their own in mostly empty low sec/null sec. Since you can't just warp to all the celestials and find all the POS's in 5 minutes anymore, there is some ability to hide in open space.

So you just want to hide, that’s all the mess about? POS cloaking module will be your salvation.
Otherwise the POS at safe spot can be probed in 10 minutes, which is of course not a big difference to 5 minutes.

Loius Woo wrote:
The jump drive idea is amazing.

No it’s not.
Balance the Black Ops ships first. Make “White Ops” if you want. It’s ships that move, it’s structures that stay on site.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-08-15 05:21:26 UTC
basicaly while things can happen with the real physics you experience every day, things must be balanced for game play.

Because the vast majority of us cannot play the game for 12+ hours a day, physics must be limited to accommodate that.

Many things inside the game do not make sense, Why cannot a large alliance apply for concord protection? Why do pirate ships continue to patrol the asteroid belts when they are hopelessly out classed by capsuleers?

but back to the subject, fighting one large dickstar or deathstar on a moon is bad enough, now fight four (or five or ten) on the same moon, repping each other. or some combination of them, with enough power generator pos's off grid you can effectively make the central tower structure both fuel free, and invincible.
sure you could start whittling away at the outliers, but what would have taken a night of good intel/ distraction now takes years. waiting for the people in charge to get bored of being invincible.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-08-15 17:34:33 UTC
Sinzor Aumer wrote:

And if it's not tuned right? Could you remind me, what time did it take for the developers to tune the Drake right? Ah, just remembered - it's not tuned yet, sorry for stupid question.
And fixing POSes would be much more difficult, as you can’t just spread them, if they're already set up too close.
Mitsolen then, whatever – it has ice field btw. People would soon figure out the optimal spot to set their POSes, and will crowd it. With barren desert elsewhere. The universe of EVE will collapse into the black hole of Jita... or Mitsolen.
So you just want to hide, that’s all the mess about? POS cloaking module will be your salvation.
Otherwise the POS at safe spot can be probed in 10 minutes, which is of course not a big difference to 5 minutes.
No it’s not.
Balance the Black Ops ships first. Make “White Ops” if you want. It’s ships that move, it’s structures that stay on site.


OK, WTF is wrong with you?

Who said anything about a drake? I didn't, how do drakes have ANYTHING to do with a discussion of POS proximity balancing?

How does "people can build their poses in optimal places near ice fields (but off grid)" equate to "The universe if Eve will collapse into a black hole of Jita" in your mind? Please explain because you sound like you need medication.

Its not about "hiding" its about accessibility. If you can't understand that, I am wasting my time.

How do you draw any correlation between allowing small POSes to jump with fixing black ops? They are mutually exclusive mechanics and have nothing to do with each other.

I liked the OP, then I see this crazy shite and so now I am unsubscribing to this thread and leaving you to your incoherent rants.

Good day sir.
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#32 - 2012-08-16 05:53:22 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:
Who said anything about a drake? I didn't, how do drakes have ANYTHING to do with a discussion of POS proximity balancing?

How does "people can build their poses in optimal places near ice fields (but off grid)" equate to "The universe if Eve will collapse into a black hole of Jita" in your mind? Please explain because you sound like you need medication.

Drake is an example of how things can be unbalanced for years. You suggest placing POSes in grid at some distance, which should be fine-tuned by devs. My point is that this tuning can be wrong for years, with the example being Drake. Unlike Drake, however, the distance between POSes is even harder to fix in future patches.
If that simple logic sounds like madness for you - then it's hard to be you.

"Collapsing into the black hole" is a metaphor. Limited number of spots for setting a POS is one of the factors, that makes people settle in systems outside The Forge. Remove it - and a majority of research facilities would be relocated there. Other activities may follow pretty fast as well. The only exception being of course ore mining. So how do you like it - the industrial capital of Jita, and mining colonies all around? As for me - I dont like.

Loius Woo wrote:
Its not about "hiding" its about accessibility. If you can't understand that, I am wasting my time.

Accessibility is not an absolute good. If you can’t defend your POS – don’t build it. EVE is hard, at least it's supposed to be.

Loius Woo wrote:
How do you draw any correlation between allowing small POSes to jump with fixing black ops? They are mutually exclusive mechanics and have nothing to do with each other.

They both are about jumping, they can’t be mutually exclusive.
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#33 - 2012-08-16 06:13:18 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
but back to the subject, fighting one large dickstar or deathstar on a moon is bad enough, now fight four (or five or ten) on the same moon, repping each other. or some combination of them, with enough power generator pos's off grid you can effectively make the central tower structure both fuel free, and invincible.
sure you could start whittling away at the outliers, but what would have taken a night of good intel/ distraction now takes years. waiting for the people in charge to get bored of being invincible.

Alright, but if we set aside RR ability, what do you think of POS capacitor? Is that a good idea, or should it be CPU and PG, as it's now?
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