These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

Thoughts about the mining barge and exhumer changes
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-08-14 09:13:52 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Meanwhile, a Hulk mining with an orca gets 100% uptime and mines 15% more plus orca bonuses.

This is why mining ops are profitable. That orca does more for the op than choosing a hulk over a mackinaw does.

Alternatively, I've lost track of how many idiots I've seen dual-boxing with 1 hulk and 1 orca.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Wuxi Wuxilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-08-14 09:41:51 UTC
You seem to have this strange obsession with flying solo Hulks, so I'll make it simple:

If you undock the Hulk without being in a fleet, you are doing it wrong.

Working as intended.
Pipa Porto
#23 - 2012-08-14 09:46:10 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Meanwhile, a Hulk mining with an orca gets 100% uptime and mines 15% more plus orca bonuses.

This is why mining ops are profitable. That orca does more for the op than choosing a hulk over a mackinaw does.

Alternatively, I've lost track of how many idiots I've seen dual-boxing with 1 hulk and 1 orca.


I fail to see the problem.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-08-14 10:13:00 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Meanwhile, a Hulk mining with an orca gets 100% uptime and mines 15% more plus orca bonuses.

This is why mining ops are profitable. That orca does more for the op than choosing a hulk over a mackinaw does.

Alternatively, I've lost track of how many idiots I've seen dual-boxing with 1 hulk and 1 orca.


I fail to see the problem.

That the obvious choice for the solo miner by a landslide is the mackinaw, while the hulk is potentially a little better for one in a mining op though they're still likely to go for the mackinaw anyway. The only time a hulk is useful is when you want that tiny last bit of yield, and are willing to sit for hours in front of your computer to get it! In short, the new balance rewards botters and punishes actual effort! How do you not see the problem?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Pipa Porto
#25 - 2012-08-14 10:16:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Meanwhile, a Hulk mining with an orca gets 100% uptime and mines 15% more plus orca bonuses.

This is why mining ops are profitable. That orca does more for the op than choosing a hulk over a mackinaw does.

Alternatively, I've lost track of how many idiots I've seen dual-boxing with 1 hulk and 1 orca.


I fail to see the problem.

That the obvious choice for the solo miner by a landslide is the mackinaw, while the hulk is potentially a little better for one in a mining op though they're still likely to go for the mackinaw anyway. The only time a hulk is useful is when you want that tiny last bit of yield, and are willing to sit for hours in front of your computer to get it! In short, the new balance rewards botters and punishes actual effort! How do you not see the problem?


The new balance rewards effort (sitting an doing that oh-so-painful 15 clicks an hour) with 15% extra yield, on top of the fact that, with HS roids being so small, you can't AFK for any significant amount of time anyway.

So yes, the ship designed to cater to the solo miner is the best choice for the Solo miner.

I still fail to see the problem.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-08-14 10:25:45 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
The new balance rewards effort (sitting an doing that oh-so-painful 15 clicks an hour) with 15% extra yield, on top of the fact that, with HS roids being so small, you can't AFK for any significant amount of time anyway.

So yes, the ship designed to cater to the solo miner is the best choice for the Solo miner.

I still fail to see the problem.

No, it rewards the lack of effort! My proposal would increase the gap between large barges and medium barges, effectively making the large ones stand out in yield. I think it makes perfect sense, because solo miners will still use the one with the larger ore bay. And yes, you can definitely AFK mine for a while on the same roids. 0.5 and 0.6 space is full of big roids.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Pipa Porto
#27 - 2012-08-14 10:29:51 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
The new balance rewards effort (sitting an doing that oh-so-painful 15 clicks an hour) with 15% extra yield, on top of the fact that, with HS roids being so small, you can't AFK for any significant amount of time anyway.

So yes, the ship designed to cater to the solo miner is the best choice for the Solo miner.

I still fail to see the problem.

No, it rewards the lack of effort! My proposal would increase the gap between large barges and medium barges, effectively making the large ones stand out in yield. I think it makes perfect sense, because solo miners will still use the one with the larger ore bay. And yes, you can definitely AFK mine for a while on the same roids. 0.5 and 0.6 space is full of big roids.


And then you're profitable to Gank in a Mackinaw. Innit great? You run the risk of a Suicide Gank (which, from the way miner's have been crying about them, are everpresent), and in exchange you get a tiny bit of extra convenience.

The effort of using a Hulk is rewarded by 15% extra yield and a 100% uptime.

The Solo Mack gets less yield and only gets a ~90% uptime (or less). And it still requires your regular input to change roids.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-08-14 10:33:41 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
And then you're profitable to Gank in a Mackinaw. Innit great? You run the risk of a Suicide Gank (which, from the way miner's have been crying about them, are everpresent), and in exchange you get a tiny bit of extra convenience.

The effort of using a Hulk is rewarded by 15% extra yield and a 100% uptime.

The Solo Mack gets less yield and only gets a ~90% uptime (or less). And it still requires your regular input to change roids.

Not it's not, and no it doesn't! Why is it more profitable to gank a mackinaw than a hulk? Hulks currently have less HP! Or were you aware? And what is this 100% uptime for the hulk you pulled out of your ass? Any barge gets 100% uptime if someone else is hauling for them, but if someone isn't,t hen the hulk gets the worst up time! And no, the mackinaw doesn't require regular input, but the hulk does!

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
pussnheels
Viziam
#29 - 2012-08-14 11:20:58 UTC
the changes were long overdue and barges exhumers can be flown according to your own playstyle n if you are in a active mining corps the hulk is still king of yield and for the times you are on your own the mach will be the ship for you and if you are really paranoid about gankers the skiff is the ship to use

Sadly enough ever since the patch i noticed that especially the mack gave alot of miners a false sense of security and they still go out untanked in favour for yield

There is no excuse now if you fall victim to a ganker CCP gave you the opportunity to tank and afk mine now use that tank FFS

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Pipa Porto
#30 - 2012-08-14 11:25:35 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
And then you're profitable to Gank in a Mackinaw. Innit great? You run the risk of a Suicide Gank (which, from the way miner's have been crying about them, are everpresent), and in exchange you get a tiny bit of extra convenience.

The effort of using a Hulk is rewarded by 15% extra yield and a 100% uptime.

The Solo Mack gets less yield and only gets a ~90% uptime (or less). And it still requires your regular input to change roids.

Not it's not, and no it doesn't! Why is it more profitable to gank a mackinaw than a hulk? Hulks currently have less HP! Or were you aware? And what is this 100% uptime for the hulk you pulled out of your ass? Any barge gets 100% uptime if someone else is hauling for them, but if someone isn't,t hen the hulk gets the worst up time! And no, the mackinaw doesn't require regular input, but the hulk does!


The Hulk is explicitly designed to not be useful when used solo.

A Mackinaw is more likely to be AFK. A Hulk pilot is ATK (controlling the lasers), so he can use active measure to stay safe.

Use a Mackinaw when someone's hauling for you, and you lose out on the 15% extra yield that the Hulk provides, while your lasers pop rocks more often (because you're getting 1.5 lasers worth of mining on each rock), meaning you have to pay more attention to your mining than you do with a Hulk.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-08-14 11:30:16 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
The Hulk is explicitly designed to not be useful when used solo.

A Mackinaw is more likely to be AFK. A Hulk pilot is ATK (controlling the lasers), so he can use active measure to stay safe.

Use a Mackinaw when someone's hauling for you, and you lose out on the 15% extra yield that the Hulk provides, while your lasers pop rocks more often (because you're getting 1.5 lasers worth of mining on each rock), meaning you have to pay more attention to your mining than you do with a Hulk.

I'm done telling you you're wrong. You keep re-iterating the same thing again and again. I can address what you say, point you to statistics, mathematical figures, show you where you're wrong but all you do is say it again like a broken record. It is quite clear that you aren't listening to me, you're only listening to yourself.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#32 - 2012-08-14 16:52:01 UTC
no no no no NO NO NO NO NO HEEHAW HEEHAW HEEHAW HEEHAW!
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2012-08-14 17:11:44 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
tl;dr: OP wants to revert barge changes so the Hulk's the only one anyone ever flies.

It's pretty clear you didn't read my post then, because I didn't say anything even remotely close to that. You also clearly didn't read the last sentence I posted.


You said Nerf the Mack's yield (which would render it unused), Nerf the Skiff's yield harder (even less use), and buff the Hulk's tank.

They're all meant to be useful in different situations. Your suggestion would simply un-tiericide the barges and result in Hulk Uber Alles again.

By the way, if you're ATK in a Hulk, you can avoid suicide ganks without the need for any tank.

So yeah, you said exactly that. You just tried to hide it in a badly formatted wall of text.



That's the point, but in reality the hulk isn't used at all anymore. 9% yield, for zero tank and cargo space isn't ever worth it. Skiff's cargo is too big, and mack's tank is too big, and hulk didn't get anything. Even in a null sec mining op, I'd rather use either of those, just in the off chance someone LD's, or our protection doesn't react in time to rat spawns, or countless other scenarios where 9 piddling percent is not worth losing a multi million isk ship.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#34 - 2012-08-14 17:33:11 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
That the obvious choice for the solo miner by a landslide is the mackinaw, while the hulk is potentially a little better for one in a mining op though they're still likely to go for the mackinaw anyway. The only time a hulk is useful is when you want that tiny last bit of yield, and are willing to sit for hours in front of your computer to get it! In short, the new balance rewards botters and punishes actual effort! How do you not see the problem?


An extra 9% yield increase is not "tiny". It's pretty huge, actually. The more you mine, the bigger that gain in yield looks, too. It's the difference between making a profit and taking a loss on most mining ops I've ever been on. (In fact, margins on mining ops are generally more in the 5% range, once you factor in fleet costs, escort, transport, management, etc.)

Solo mining is for chumps, if your goal is to maximize your isk/hr. At the very least you should be running an alt in a hauler, which renders the Mack's huge ore bay less useful -- in a Hulk you'd never fill up the ore bay anyhow. But let's say that a Mack invalidates a Hulk for solo mining. So what? That was the whole point of the patch! The Hulk has been re-dedicated to the role it was supposed to be playing all along: a fleet mining vessel with a maximized yield.

If you had a bunch of Hulks in your fleet, you're not obligated to sell them, you know. You can continue to use them just as you did before, and in most cases the Hulk will still produce the best yield. It's just that now the other hulls now have a purpose in the game, instead of being mere stepping-stones on the way to getting a Hulk. That's a good thing.
Pipa Porto
#35 - 2012-08-14 17:39:47 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
The Hulk is explicitly designed to not be useful when used solo.

A Mackinaw is more likely to be AFK. A Hulk pilot is ATK (controlling the lasers), so he can use active measure to stay safe.

Use a Mackinaw when someone's hauling for you, and you lose out on the 15% extra yield that the Hulk provides, while your lasers pop rocks more often (because you're getting 1.5 lasers worth of mining on each rock), meaning you have to pay more attention to your mining than you do with a Hulk.

I'm done telling you you're wrong. You keep re-iterating the same thing again and again. I can address what you say, point you to statistics, mathematical figures, show you where you're wrong but all you do is say it again like a broken record. It is quite clear that you aren't listening to me, you're only listening to yourself.


I keep having to make the same point over and over again because you still haven't refuted it.

The Hulk, properly supported outmines any other ship. And now that I think of it, the Hulk does much better than 15% better than the Mack. The Hulk gets 3% per level of Exhumer and 3% per level of Mining barge. The Mack gets 1% per level of Exhumer and that's it.

So the base Hulk mines 26% better than the Mackinaw. The Mackinaw gets a stacking penalized 3rd MLU, worth 4.56%, leaving the Hulk with a 20%(and change) lead.

If a 20% increase in Yield isn't worth the ~15 extra clicks per hour it takes to use a Hulk for you, then don't use it. The Hulk also kills asteroids slower, so you don't have to retarget as often. Finally, not short cycling hurts it less than it does the Mack, because each laser is a third of the output instead of half.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-08-14 17:51:26 UTC
Another problem is when people rush into buying a Mack rather than going with the cheaper Retriever, especially if they aren't at max on skills. A Mack will run you ~ 240M ISK, whereas a Retriever will run you maybe a tenth of that. So you have to think about how long you'd have to mine to make up the difference between the cost of the two ships, multiplied by however many ships you're talking about.

I mine in lots of hisec systems all over Empire space, so keeping a fully-outfitted Mack in each one would be cost-prohibitive in the short term. But it's trivial to put a Ret in each one, and the yield/cargo hit is more than made up by the cost savings on going with the T1 ship. I can also be more adventuresome in the systems I'm willing to mine in because I'm not paranoid about losing my expensive ship. Losing a Mack would hurt; losing a Ret is a "so what?" situation.

The same situation holds for the Procurer/Skiff combo: sometimes a Procurer makes more sense than a Skiff, given how much cheaper it is to buy.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2012-08-14 18:36:25 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:


Solo mining is for chumps, if your goal is to maximize your isk/hr. At the very least you should be running an alt in a hauler, which renders the Mack's huge ore bay less useful -- in a Hulk you'd never fill up the ore bay anyhow. But let's say that a Mack invalidates a Hulk for solo mining. So what? That was the whole point of the patch! The Hulk has been re-dedicated to the role it was supposed to be playing all along: a fleet mining vessel with a maximized yield.




The point of the patch was to make every barge useful. What it actually did is make the mack the new king. The hulk is designed to be the best fleet miner, but it still fails at that. Its small extra yield isn't worth the rest of the hassle, when you can have a much easier time in a fleet using the skiff or mack.

I'm not talking about solo mining. I'm explicitly talking about fleet mining, where the hulk is still not as useful as the skiff or the mack. I enjoy mining, but not many people do. Not many people want to have to babysit the ore hold, so they'll use the mack. Not many people will be able to find willing guards to keep the belts safe, so they'll use the skiff. Alliance op or no, you're still going to have a hell of a time convincing combat pilots to sit in a belt and watch you mine, just in case a battleship spawns.

The new role ideas are great, they just implemented them badly. They need to remove the role bonus from the mack, and change the one on the skiff to 2 effective turrets. That would balance it a lot better, than trying to give the 2 a similar yield to the hulk, when you aren't giving the hulk any sort of tank or ore bay in return.
Pipa Porto
#38 - 2012-08-14 20:00:13 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Idris Helion wrote:


Solo mining is for chumps, if your goal is to maximize your isk/hr. At the very least you should be running an alt in a hauler, which renders the Mack's huge ore bay less useful -- in a Hulk you'd never fill up the ore bay anyhow. But let's say that a Mack invalidates a Hulk for solo mining. So what? That was the whole point of the patch! The Hulk has been re-dedicated to the role it was supposed to be playing all along: a fleet mining vessel with a maximized yield.




The point of the patch was to make every barge useful. What it actually did is make the mack the new king. The hulk is designed to be the best fleet miner, but it still fails at that. Its small extra yield isn't worth the rest of the hassle, when you can have a much easier time in a fleet using the skiff or mack.

I'm not talking about solo mining. I'm explicitly talking about fleet mining, where the hulk is still not as useful as the skiff or the mack. I enjoy mining, but not many people do. Not many people want to have to babysit the ore hold, so they'll use the mack. Not many people will be able to find willing guards to keep the belts safe, so they'll use the skiff. Alliance op or no, you're still going to have a hell of a time convincing combat pilots to sit in a belt and watch you mine, just in case a battleship spawns.

The new role ideas are great, they just implemented them badly. They need to remove the role bonus from the mack, and change the one on the skiff to 2 effective turrets. That would balance it a lot better, than trying to give the 2 a similar yield to the hulk, when you aren't giving the hulk any sort of tank or ore bay in return.


A fleet of Hulks can easily Tank any Beltrat spawn. Either permanently, or long enough to kill it, your choice. Shield Drones FTW.
A solo Hulk can Tank any Beltrat spawn. It either takes some ISK, or dropping an MLU. Your choice. But Solo Hulks aren't a supported feature anymore.

20% extra yield isn't exactly "small".

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-08-14 20:54:29 UTC
It also isn't accurate, not when comparing maximum possible yields. It's closer to 15%. IIRC it's 15.56% ore and 8.3% ice in favor of the hulk when comparing it to a mackinaw using T2 lasers (and crystals where applicable), rigs where applicable, low slots full of T2 uprades, and the T2 yield gang link on an All 5 orca pilot with the mind link.

As for hulks in 0.0 belts when battleship rats spawn, hulks could already tank a lot of them pre-1.2 and 1.2 gave them a 20% boost to their base EHP with the majority of it going to their shields. If you can't tank belt rats after that boost, and despite the reduction in resistances it is a boost, while you could before you're probably doing something very wrong. You're doing something even more wrong if you're in a fleet which, by rights, should include an orca or two and eat least one orca should be fit with the mining cycle time link, a shield harmonizing link, and a large remote shield booster and battleship spawns are giving you trouble.
Wuxi Wuxilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2012-08-14 21:16:50 UTC
A max yield Hulk with orca links and 5 maxed Mining Drones II has 13.6% more yield than an equally fitted Mack.
If that's not enough for you to spend 15sec every 6 minutes on putting stuff into a can, then more power to you.

If you like a cap stable afk-Domi more than a Mach for mission running, then go for it. But no way no how is that Domi a faster mission runner than the Mach, regardless of how much you like being afk.

The Hulk has a significantly better yield than the Mack (13.6% IS significant) and if you can't make it work in a fleet ops then you are bad and you should feel bad. If you are not in a fleet you have no bloody business to even undock in one.

Working as intended.
Previous page123Next page