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new POSes and wormholes - what do w-space dwellers need?

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Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#201 - 2012-08-13 22:45:31 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:
Two step wrote:


I certainly understand your position, but I don't think it is fair to allow, for example, the same level of defensive firepower in a C1 that someone could have in a C6. If the attackers can't use a dread (without spending weeks building it in place), you should have less firepower available as well. You guys have made a purposeful decision to live in a C2, where you have less income from sleepers, and easier access to empire.

You guys have decided on less risk to your POSes, there should be a tradeoff to that decision. I don't support giving you *less* functionality than the current system, but I do think it is reasonable to give you fewer defenses, and possibly not some of the features that people that choose to expose themselves to higher risk would get.


Whoa, I was planning on leaving this convo for a while until I read this. This is just plain bad and feels like some weird elitism. How is C2 or C3 less? Yes, its scaled for smaller corps and alliances. The sleeper sites can be done in ships that require smaller SP investment and the connections prevent capital ship movement. Besides those two points this part of w-space is just as cruel and unforgiving as the rest of w-space. There is no local, no security status hits, you can still anchor bubbles and use all kinds of items that are not allowed in high sec. But high sec, where a freighter can move a Large POS will not have this limitation?

What the rest of k-space? Is null sec going to have better POSes than low sec? And how is having capitals in C5 an excuse for larger POSes and better defenses? Why can't the defender use the capitals to defend? After all you just said it yourself, that POSes need to be defended by ships and not turrets. So how does that make lower class w-space an exception? Also, I think Empire access is a liability as the attacker can use it to bring in more people into the system then cycle, as opposed to higher class w-space where an empire connection is rare.


Uh, you said it yourself, "Yes, its scaled for smaller corps and alliances". How is a small corp going to evict some other small corp that has built a giant deathstar POS without the ability to bring in dreads?

This is, again, an issue that comes up when I talk to smaller corps than are posting here. Some 5 man corp can't move into a c2 right now because many of them are filled with large ecm dickstars, which they have no hope of killing.

POS defenses need to scale with the amount and size of ships that can be brought to bear against them.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Archdaimon
Merchants of the Golden Goose
#202 - 2012-08-13 22:54:46 UTC
Nice answering all those things Two Steps.

Still to me it seem the primary concern is:

1) Timers
2) extreme locations of poses
3) Activity tracking on poses

Wormholes have the best accoustics. It's known. - Sing it for me -
Madner Kami
Durendal Ascending
#203 - 2012-08-13 23:24:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Madner Kami
Two step wrote:
This is, again, an issue that comes up when I talk to smaller corps than are posting here. Some 5 man corp can't move into a c2 right now because many of them are filled with large ecm dickstars, which they have no hope of killing.


Learn to stealthbomb. Use smartbombing. Hell, use FoFs. Drones are rather disinterested in beeing jammed, too.

Also: Learn to stealthbomb, because every POS-size and -configuration is extremely weak in defense against that tactic, unless the defender comes out or the bombers screw up.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#204 - 2012-08-14 00:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Gnaw LF
Two step wrote:


Uh, you said it yourself, "Yes, its scaled for smaller corps and alliances". How is a small corp going to evict some other small corp that has built a giant deathstar POS without the ability to bring in dreads?

This is, again, an issue that comes up when I talk to smaller corps than are posting here. Some 5 man corp can't move into a c2 right now because many of them are filled with large ecm dickstars, which they have no hope of killing.

POS defenses need to scale with the amount and size of ships that can be brought to bear against them.



Sure they can, just anchor a POS of your own in a d-ckstar setup and keep hunting the other guys untill they are no longer able to scan themselves into the system. Then their tower will run out of fuel. Your idea is that we need to nerf an entire class of w-space because new guys are having issues getting a foot into an active system is absurd. Its anti-EvE. By that extension we need to nerf half of sov nullsec because 50 man groups can't make it into there without being hot dropped.

Even if we want to approach your idea and make d-star setups less powerful in systems that cannot have capital support, the easier way of doing it is to reduce the efficiency of the ecm modules in the very same system class, or hell even across entire EvE. I don't think that a lot of people will complain about the less efficient ECM modules. There are other solutions, all of which don't bar a group of players from have the convenience of a large POS.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#205 - 2012-08-14 00:17:01 UTC
Two step wrote:


Uh, you said it yourself, "Yes, its scaled for smaller corps and alliances". How is a small corp going to evict some other small corp that has built a giant deathstar POS without the ability to bring in dreads?

This is, again, an issue that comes up when I talk to smaller corps than are posting here. Some 5 man corp can't move into a c2 right now because many of them are filled with large ecm dickstars, which they have no hope of killing.

POS defenses need to scale with the amount and size of ships that can be brought to bear against them.


5 man corp won't be able to take down a reasonably defended medium tower, let alone a large. The problem isn't with the pos though...IT"S WITH HAVING A 5 MAN CORP. Hell, I have seen a 5 man corp in a c5. Do you really think they have any chance, even with caps, to take down any reasonably sized/competent corp's tower?

Also, as far as scaling to the amount of ships that can be brought in...I've seen 100+ ships bashing a pos in a c2, so having medium pos's against a fleet that size just makes it all too easy for the attackers.

You aren't bringing up some issue of flawed game mechanics here. You are bringing up an issue of fairness. Hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but Eve isn't supposed to be fair.

No trolling please
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#206 - 2012-08-14 02:29:08 UTC
Two step wrote:
I really don't think the docking games thing will be at all the same when you have POS guns to back you up.


what's the first thing anyone anywhere does when attacking a POS?
they kill off the guns....

Quote:
KAIRS live in C2s because they're pansies.


QFT ;)

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#207 - 2012-08-14 02:33:00 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:


Quote:
KAIRS live in C2s because they're pansies.


QFT ;)


Just wait Jack. The next time that Orca of yours is going down! P

No trolling please
kapolov
Doomheim
#208 - 2012-08-14 03:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: kapolov
.


EDIT: I failed at mass quoting What?
kapolov
Doomheim
#209 - 2012-08-14 03:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: kapolov
I think you really need to rethink your stance on the lower class WH's being gimped.

I do agree the C1 POS defence situation is a little unbalanced due to mass restrictions on the C1 hole. (that's not to say C1 evictions can't and don't happen, they are just painful.)

A 5 man corp is going to find it very hard to take over any size inhabited WH with only 5 people to field, but to say they can't move into C2's currently really is bullshit, there is plenty of uninhabited C2's with varying statics available and many of those with good PI as well. If they cannot find one of these empty C2's there is certainly many that go up for sale every single day and most go unsold for the lack of buyers. Again to say anything against that is pure bullshit and if you don't agree you guys need to get out of your hole and explore some more.

I here your point that attackers can't bring caps to attack a C2, But why the hell do you think you should be able to. If you live in a C5/C6 where your corp can make countless billions per week and most of these C5/C6 corps have a large member base. Do you really think you should be able to move your caps (that to you are disposable to some point from your large income base) around to every WH that you see fit and attack people living in C2's? Your C5/C6 corps already have the numbers and funds to easily go to any C2 and evict a resident regardless of tower composition and to say any difference to that again is bullshit.

I strongly feel that if a corp/Alliance has spent a great deal of their resources to fortify their home system in a C2- a C4 on the gimped income they have available compared to a C5/C6 they should be able to. Isnt it you that has pointed out previously Two Step that to fully evict a C5/C6 corp/Alliance it is also very hard if they have fortified their systems with multiple caps and towers and takes an enormous effort of moving caps in waves and rolling statics many hundreds of times to do so. You have to work for the eviction in the C5/C6's why do you think it should be a lot easier to evict people in lower class holes than in your own if they can fortify with such a massive difference in income levels.

To gimp lower class holes any further than they are will in the long term just see them as a waste land. I don't know what you want the outcome to be with this but you need to consider it. Do you want all lower class WH corps to move to your C5/C6? Or do you want to constantly scan your way through empty systems to get your junk to empire?

The idea that one of your corp mates can come out and completely bag the CEO of losts post ( A post that i found to have some completely reasonable concerns) with a response like move to a C5 you pansie is abhorrent. Have you guys not taken a look at your KB compared to theirs lately?

Or will you guys soon be moving to null where all your real PVP is at?

(And no i am not from lost, they have touched me in bad places before and i am not a fan of theirs, Sad) But they are right this time.

EDIT: Terribad spelling.
Kuning
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#210 - 2012-08-14 04:01:45 UTC
There sure are a lot of people who rely on capital ships like a crutch. A lot of us are getting along fine just without them, including invading and evicting
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#211 - 2012-08-14 04:23:31 UTC
Two step wrote:

I certainly understand your position, but I don't think it is fair to allow, for example, the same level of defensive firepower in a C1 that someone could have in a C6. If the attackers can't use a dread (without spending weeks building it in place), you should have less firepower available as well. You guys have made a purposeful decision to live in a C2, where you have less income from sleepers, and easier access to empire.

You guys have decided on less risk to your POSes, there should be a tradeoff to that decision. I don't support giving you *less* functionality than the current system, but I do think it is reasonable to give you fewer defenses, and possibly not some of the features that people that choose to expose themselves to higher risk would get.


I respectfully disagree with this statement. To say that living in a C2 somehow poses less risk is absurd. We have the same risk to our POS as you do. Any WH can be fortified by putting time and ISK into it. And any WH can be burned, again, by putting time and ISK into it. Nobody is safe based solely on the class WH they live in, and although the threats vary, they are relatively the same no matter where you live. It is not uncommon to see 100 person T3 fleets burning a C2. Large towers don't last long, a medium would be laughable.

Is the goal to make it easier for ragtag corps to muscle their way in to the lower class wh? I cannot support being penalized for being organized. And WH space is about organization, and lack thereof is a recipe for disaster. And as was said, there are soooo many empty wh, an eviction is usually personal, not a lack of space. So why make it easy for the aggressors?

I absolutely do not agree that if you don't live in a C5/C6 then you are somehow taking the easy road. It simply is not the case. And the POS changes should not at all reflect that attitude. Don't fix what isn't broken. Stick to the legitimate concerns that have been voiced over and over again regarding POS security, management, and access IMHO.

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
LanFear TyRaX
Lead Farmers
#212 - 2012-08-14 06:06:08 UTC
I second the request to know if ForceField removal is a done deal or not, we can plan better if we know that.

What I feel (and I may be wrong) is that CCP is trying to make more people move to wspace by making it accessible with more amenities ? I see that wspace will become another variant of kspace. While this is desirable to some people,it is not, to a good percentage (if not a majority) of active wspace residents.

Me at least, left kspace because of some of the things that are proposed to be added to wormholes. Like station games, instawarp undock, station camping etc. If wspace turns into 0.0 without local, we will have all the difficulties without any of the attractive distinctions.

In this thread, I see a lot of people from corporations and alliances I see and interact Please convey these ideas and feedbacks to CCP. Still,I think, CCP will be like, "hell, whatever we do, they will keep playing anyway".
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#213 - 2012-08-14 06:25:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:

Quote:
KAIRS live in C2s because they're pansies.

QFT ;)

Just wait Jack. The next time that Orca of yours is going down! P


wasnt actually my orca.
i was escorting it through a chain recently and it still has the hull damage from that run in :D

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#214 - 2012-08-14 06:37:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Nash MacAllister wrote:
I respectfully disagree with this statement. To say that living in a C2 somehow poses less risk is absurd. We have the same risk to our POS as you do.


oh please, youre just embarrassing yourself.
comparing POS sieges in a c5/6 to a c2 is just stupid, at best ignorant.

POS defences on a C5/6 POS are basically decorative since any attacking fleet will have a LEAST 3, more likely a half dozen or more, dreads which can ignore them.
attacking a decked out dickstar in a low class WH is THE single most tedious and horribly painful thing you can do in a WH.

yes, obviously it can be done regardless of POS setup, even in a C1.
however, attacking a low class large POS with 100+ online ECM mods (which all low class POSs should have if they know what theyre doing, most dont) is beyond painful.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
kapolov
Doomheim
#215 - 2012-08-14 07:05:17 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Nash MacAllister wrote:
I respectfully disagree with this statement. To say that living in a C2 somehow poses less risk is absurd. We have the same risk to our POS as you do.


oh please, youre just embarrassing yourself.
comparing POS sieges in a c5/6 to a c2 is just stupid, at best ignorant.

POS defences on a C5/6 POS are basically decorative since any attacking fleet will have a LEAST 3, more likely a half dozen or more, dreads which can ignore them.
attacking a decked out dickstar in a low class WH is THE single most tedious and horribly painful thing you can do in a WH.

yes, obviously it can be done regardless of POS setup, even in a C1.
however, attacking a low class large POS with 100+ online ECM mods (which all low class POSs should have if they know what theyre doing, most dont) is beyond painful.



So we should just make us all use small/medium POS's so you can just breeze through evict a few noobs and move on back to your fortress of solitude. Get a grip on reality, how elitist can you be.

Get past the idea that the cap game is the only way to play in WH's
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#216 - 2012-08-14 07:10:59 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:


oh please, youre just embarrassing yourself.
comparing POS sieges in a c5/6 to a c2 is just stupid, at best ignorant.

POS defences on a C5/6 POS are basically decorative since any attacking fleet will have a LEAST 3, more likely a half dozen or more, dreads which can ignore them.
attacking a decked out dickstar in a low class WH is THE single most tedious and horribly painful thing you can do in a WH.

yes, obviously it can be done regardless of POS setup, even in a C1.
however, attacking a low class large POS with 100+ online ECM mods (which all low class POSs should have if they know what theyre doing, most dont) is beyond painful.


It's two different ways of accomplishing the same thing. To invade any decent sized corp/alliance in deep wormhole space, you are going to need more than just 3 dreads. This means you are going to be rolling, looking for a way to bring in more caps. By that time, there is a fleet of 100 people in a c2, already smashing everything in it's way. On top of that, if they feel like inviting friends, help is a stones throw away.

Having experienced both shallow and deep wormhole game play. , I would call that about even on the risk scale.

No trolling please
Zwo Zateki
Doomheim
#217 - 2012-08-14 08:14:01 UTC
Two step wrote:
The exact reasons got NDA'd out of the CSM minutes, but they are reasonable.

Yeah, you don't understand but we know what we're doing!!11

Heard that before...
(Hint: Incarna)

http://cvmkr.com/R4JG
Zwo Zateki
Doomheim
#218 - 2012-08-14 08:19:46 UTC
Two step wrote:
Gnaw LF wrote:
Two step wrote:


I certainly understand your position, but I don't think it is fair to allow, for example, the same level of defensive firepower in a C1 that someone could have in a C6. If the attackers can't use a dread (without spending weeks building it in place), you should have less firepower available as well. You guys have made a purposeful decision to live in a C2, where you have less income from sleepers, and easier access to empire.

You guys have decided on less risk to your POSes, there should be a tradeoff to that decision. I don't support giving you *less* functionality than the current system, but I do think it is reasonable to give you fewer defenses, and possibly not some of the features that people that choose to expose themselves to higher risk would get.


Whoa, I was planning on leaving this convo for a while until I read this. This is just plain bad and feels like some weird elitism. How is C2 or C3 less? Yes, its scaled for smaller corps and alliances. The sleeper sites can be done in ships that require smaller SP investment and the connections prevent capital ship movement. Besides those two points this part of w-space is just as cruel and unforgiving as the rest of w-space. There is no local, no security status hits, you can still anchor bubbles and use all kinds of items that are not allowed in high sec. But high sec, where a freighter can move a Large POS will not have this limitation?

What the rest of k-space? Is null sec going to have better POSes than low sec? And how is having capitals in C5 an excuse for larger POSes and better defenses? Why can't the defender use the capitals to defend? After all you just said it yourself, that POSes need to be defended by ships and not turrets. So how does that make lower class w-space an exception? Also, I think Empire access is a liability as the attacker can use it to bring in more people into the system then cycle, as opposed to higher class w-space where an empire connection is rare.


Uh, you said it yourself, "Yes, its scaled for smaller corps and alliances". How is a small corp going to evict some other small corp that has built a giant deathstar POS without the ability to bring in dreads?

This is, again, an issue that comes up when I talk to smaller corps than are posting here. Some 5 man corp can't move into a c2 right now because many of them are filled with large ecm dickstars, which they have no hope of killing.

POS defenses need to scale with the amount and size of ships that can be brought to bear against them.

And you want 5 man corp to be able to destroy/steal billions of ISK stored @ Corporate Hangar Array just like that? Brilliant.

http://cvmkr.com/R4JG
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#219 - 2012-08-14 08:46:47 UTC
As for the lower class wormholes issue, I think it's fairly balanced tbh. You gain a defense advantage because its harder for attackers to knock over your large death/**** stars, but at the same time you sacrifice a lot by living in a low class wormhole - the logistics can be harder and obviously the isk is pathetic. C1/C2 evictions also do actually happen

Beyond that, I also think purposefully gimping lower class wormholes by idiotic ideas such as preventing them from bringing in or using large towers or other mods you also make wormhole space less appealing for corps that are looking to try something new. You're saying either jump in at the deep end or get a really sucky experience. And jumping into the deep end could be a fairly sucky experience in and of itself unless they join one of the already established Big Boys™ of wormhole space.
Joachim Weiss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#220 - 2012-08-14 09:12:13 UTC
I'm not so much worried about docking games. People can hang on the edge of their shields now for a similar effect. The biggest issue is transparency. The fact that wormhole life means you need to play with all your cards on the table (with a cloaky ace up your sleeve) provides a unique gameplay style that can't be found anywhere else in the Eve Universe. Our CSM and CCP should focus on making wormhole life even more unique, not thinking about how they can bring them in line with the rest of Eve. Variety of lifestyles is what keeps a lot of people here, don't take that away.

The ability to fit T3 subsystems on ships is something that I'm sure is on the top on any rational persons list, so I wanted to make sure CCP was aware of it as well.

As far as I'm concerned, you can leave the structures the same. Other than T3 fitting, the ability to have personal space to store ships and a personal hanger are the only real pressing needs to WH life as I see it. If you give me that, along with a POS management interface that doesn't look like a leftover from the Commodore 64 era, I will give you all my beans.

And before Bane pops a blood vessel, I must say that the idea of limiting POS size in wormholes is beyond silly. The idea to reduce ECM on a POS sounds nice, but even that addresses a problem that I don't think really exists. If someone wants that POS dead bad enough, there are plenty of ways and plenty of people who can do the job. Let their false sense of security be their consolation for living in silly little baby wormholes.