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The new Mackinkaw, new king miner, better than a hauler, all in one, afk mining machine.
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Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad
#181 - 2012-08-14 04:59:41 UTC
Feed me cheap oxytopes.

PIZZA CEO
Frying Doom
#182 - 2012-08-14 05:19:44 UTC
Melodee619 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
And why does the Mack need to be nerfed?


Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.


It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere.

Your evidence of botting?

And I can't see CCP changing thing now the server population has grown with the new changes and hell why would they the changes are great.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#183 - 2012-08-14 05:39:28 UTC
Melodee619 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
And why does the Mack need to be nerfed?


Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.


It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere.


I have looked at several killboards.

The macks are still mostly untanked (surprise, eh?) since changing a ship does not make years-of-tradition bads less bad at fitting them.

So, it takes about 2 dessies to kill them, 3 in higher sec or with some tank.

Go, and kill those pesky miners if their existence does not make you sleep in the night.

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Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#184 - 2012-08-14 06:22:32 UTC
How long does it take to recoop the cost of a Mack and mods through ice mining?

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Illest Insurrectionist
Sparta.
#185 - 2012-08-14 06:27:31 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Melodee619 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
And why does the Mack need to be nerfed?


Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.


It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere.


I have looked at several killboards.

The macks are still mostly untanked (surprise, eh?) since changing a ship does not make years-of-tradition bads less bad at fitting them.

So, it takes about 2 dessies to kill them, 3 in higher sec or with some tank.

Go, and kill those pesky miners if their existence does not make you sleep in the night.


I do but they keep coming back :/
pussnheels
Viziam
#186 - 2012-08-14 06:41:28 UTC  |  Edited by: pussnheels
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Melodee619 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
And why does the Mack need to be nerfed?


Check Pipa's posts before and right after the 1.2 patch. A lot of "facts" how Mackinaw's tank and ore bay render Skiff's/Procurer's role useless.


It makes all the other ships useless, Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes. Naturally enough CCP will say its a feature, because they dont like to be wrong. So they will say Mack was designed to be the new ship of choice for aspirating botters everywhere.


I have looked at several killboards.

The macks are still mostly untanked (surprise, eh?) since changing a ship does not make years-of-tradition bads less bad at fitting them.

So, it takes about 2 dessies to kill them, 3 in higher sec or with some tank.

Go, and kill those pesky miners if their existence does not make you sleep in the night.

exactly , the new stats gave them a false sense of security , CCP gave them a chance to put a better tank on them and what do they do, completely ignore it in favour of just that little bit of extra yield
I am all for this patch , i think it was high time those barges/exhumers role needed to be revised ,
Maybe over time they will eventually learn and adapt ,some of them atleast i hope
Darwins evolution in all its glory at work

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#187 - 2012-08-14 06:46:35 UTC
Melodee619 wrote:
It makes all the other ships useless
In what way are they useless?

Quote:
Last night 1 hulk in over 30 macks in 3 hours I found, an today those macks are still botting away an not one single hulk.... That alone says volumes.
Yes. It tells us that the purpose of the Mack — solo mining — matches the most common way of mining in the part of space you're canvassing.

…so what? How does that translate into the Mack needing a nerf?
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#188 - 2012-08-14 06:49:08 UTC
Noriko Satomi wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
uhhh....yeah, I think that's one of the things miners wanted and got. They should probably lower the yield, AFK miners shouldn't make so much ISK. Ice is gonna' crash hard.

Won't the price simply recover from the manipulation and stabilize? I thought the price was pushed way up because of all of Goonswarm's ganking campaigns such that they effectively cornered the market for a while.


So you don't see a huge over-supply coming from people mining ice for an hour at a time without having to be there? The convenience factor of macks has gone so far up that orcas in a two-man team aren't needed for extra easy mining anymore, they can use two barges. No re-targeting, no moving stuff out of your cargo every few minutes. Even when the price crashes, well, it's still the only way to sit in your ship afk mining for an hour at a time. People will do it anyway and sell at the crashed prices.
Via Shivon
#189 - 2012-08-14 08:01:12 UTC
I just wanne say thanks CCP to give the botting **** a great ship.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#190 - 2012-08-14 08:12:58 UTC
Via Shivon wrote:
I just wanne say thanks CCP to give the botting **** a great ship.


What happened, you guys get more Titans? Congrats?

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Spectre80
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#191 - 2012-08-14 08:31:45 UTC
lots of crying and foot stomping from people who were so leet ganking unarmed untanked targets everyday. ive smartbombed and suicideganked few guys on my day but come on. man up and go shoot something that shoots back. wardec people, go lowsec or 0.0. why do you must insist being in empire and just try to ruin someones day? is your life really so miserable?
Kingston Black
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2012-08-14 08:32:07 UTC
dear god, ccp finally give mining some love and people start whining about it? The whole botting problem is not going to be fixed by the ore hold of a mining barge its going to be fixed by changing mining into a minigame not the mindnumbing click a button watch the pretty lights show it is currently. Im a lowsec pirate but even i want ccp to do an industry expansion before they do a lowsec one...
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#193 - 2012-08-14 10:43:30 UTC
On a related note, have you ever been in doubt that solo-semi-afk mining barges designed for basic belt-to-station mining will see most sales? Almost all miners I know are doing that solo or (usually) in a group of alts.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
WrATH2Zero
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2012-08-14 11:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: WrATH2Zero
Tikera Tissant wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:


For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.

The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.


You are dead wrong.

When mining in a team you are mining in hulks. They dump their load to the orca, and the orca either takes the ore to the station, or you are using another orca to transfer the ore to the station.

There is absolutely no reason to use mackinaws in a team ops. Even when not tanked they will not do as much m3/hour as a tanked hulk with a booster orca. No need to go and dump your load means lots more cycles dedicated to mining than flying to station, which makes the ops a hell of alot more efficient. Using macks in a team is very in-efficient.

For a solo miner, its retriever->mackinaw.
For a group miner its retriever->hulk.
For a null miner its mainly a skiff.


Spot on ^

Barges were dreadful before 1.2, cruiser could get close to them in mining and now solo barges like Retriever and Mack cannot be touched by anyone who thinks they can mine in a cruiser and upwards.

I think CCP should nerf the strip miners, especially the T2 version because to a lot of people they don't seem to be worth it and the initial payout and training for them with crystals.
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#195 - 2012-08-14 11:32:23 UTC
Tigress Tionese wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:
Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.
You need to check your bonuses, unless you run the Mack with three MLU/IHUs, in which case it's not noticeably stronger than the Hulk. The size of the Hulk's ore hold is utterly irrelevant since you're not going to use it other than as a transition buffer. For all intents and purposes, it can be considered infinite.

Quote:
The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though.
…except that doing so means you lose the boosts for long periods of time, which reduces your yield. So instead you use the Orca as a huge cargo can — another transfer buffer from which the actual haulers pull ore and take back to base.

So no, using the Orca as a belt shuttle is hideously inefficient unless you actually run with two of them… and that's just slow and cumbersome compared to using an actual industrial hauler.


I don't need to check anything, a mack can have near 20k EHP with 3 upgrades, which is enough.

The ore hold size is very relevant, with the hulk you need to do a lot more work, it's far more intensive, with the mack you can have a very laid back, semi afk or even totally afk mining session, you could even go make dinner and eat it, come back and you're still not full on ore, that is an undeniably huge bonus. This applies to ice mining obviously.


You do not get the concept of team mining do you? After 2 hours the hulk team will still have mined more. Thus more profit..
One would still use a dedicated hauler alt/player to fly back and forward from orca to base non stop. Mack is handy for solo mining nothing more..
The higher market price atm doesn't proof anything as well. Yes the mack has a spike but it will rise in price that much faster because fewer numbers are being produced. Same way the fast hulk drop can be derived from larger production cause it used to be alone as king of miners. Now solo miners switch to mack.

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#196 - 2012-08-14 12:03:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Via Shivon wrote:
I just wanne say thanks CCP to give the botting **** a great ship.



Macks are the anti-bot excellence incarnate in the undisputed bot kingdom: ice mining.

Why bot and risk a ban when you can just stick the ship on a ice roid and it does it all by itself? From 10-ish minutes a load (with Orca) before patch to today's 20-30 minutes = no need to bot it, you can really do whatever in RL.

Roids are an harder thing to avoid botting but if one accepts going to 0.7 sec and below they can still be done for 10 mins each (I tested it). Plus, 1 less laser to babysit.

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Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#197 - 2012-08-14 12:08:23 UTC
Illest Insurrectionist wrote:
Tippia wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Alyth wrote:
Yes, you could do that, The question is, why would you considering that each Cat costs like 15m each (last I checked, not been ingame for months) so based on that you'd need 60m worth of drops to just break even.
3-4 mil per cat is considered expensiveBlink
To be fair, the much-feared “max DPS” Cat does indeed set you back roughly 15M at Jita prices…

…but if you can settle for a little less damage, the price sure drops veeery quickly. P


A max damage cat also does a lot more than 600.

Beyond that half of the cat's gear drops too. So 1.3 mil loss for the ship then half the equipment.

I got a:

gistii-b booster http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14311548

pithi-b booster http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310410

gistum-c booster & palisade cap recharger http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14308989

All today.

Hulks/Macks also salvage for up to 3 intact plates or 3 power things.


Forum posters give miners too much credit:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310936
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310628
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14310010

Those were today as well.


Omg , who in their right mind would afk mine with deadspace mods -.-

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
Gunsaro
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#198 - 2012-08-14 13:09:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Gunsaro
Suddenly Boom wrote:
Nobody has pointed out that mackinkaw now holds more ore than an industrial hauler? How has nobody seen the fail logic in this? It takes the role of miner and hauler and does both better. The only thing industrials do is haul, that is their primary role and is what they do best. Wait, it was, until the patch? TROLOLOL

They've turned it into a miner and industrial all in one, the best of both worlds, a true solo pwnmobile.



A mining ship being referred to as a pwnmobile..... that has to be a first.

And I know it's a difficult concept for asteroid lickers to grasp, but industrial ships are also used for alot of other
things besides picking up your jet cans and hauling space rocks around. The changes to mining ships certainly didnt "make them obsolete".
Suvari Khashour
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#199 - 2012-08-14 13:20:54 UTC
Radius Prime wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:
Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.
You need to check your bonuses, unless you run the Mack with three MLU/IHUs, in which case it's not noticeably stronger than the Hulk. The size of the Hulk's ore hold is utterly irrelevant since you're not going to use it other than as a transition buffer. For all intents and purposes, it can be considered infinite.

Quote:
The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though.
…except that doing so means you lose the boosts for long periods of time, which reduces your yield. So instead you use the Orca as a huge cargo can — another transfer buffer from which the actual haulers pull ore and take back to base.

So no, using the Orca as a belt shuttle is hideously inefficient unless you actually run with two of them… and that's just slow and cumbersome compared to using an actual industrial hauler.


I don't need to check anything, a mack can have near 20k EHP with 3 upgrades, which is enough.

The ore hold size is very relevant, with the hulk you need to do a lot more work, it's far more intensive, with the mack you can have a very laid back, semi afk or even totally afk mining session, you could even go make dinner and eat it, come back and you're still not full on ore, that is an undeniably huge bonus. This applies to ice mining obviously.


You do not get the concept of team mining do you? After 2 hours the hulk team will still have mined more. Thus more profit..
One would still use a dedicated hauler alt/player to fly back and forward from orca to base non stop. Mack is handy for solo mining nothing more..
The higher market price atm doesn't proof anything as well. Yes the mack has a spike but it will rise in price that much faster because fewer numbers are being produced. Same way the fast hulk drop can be derived from larger production cause it used to be alone as king of miners. Now solo miners switch to mack.

The hulk still has a 25 percent yield advantage over the Mackinaw, which means the Hulk /Covetor is better for fleet mining than any other ship - even a Covetor has a 15 percent higher yield than a mackinaw.. and it costs a hell of a lot less.. if the demand for Mackinaws is up, its just that there is a lot of demand for solo mining ships, which might be because of something like, i don't know.. hulkageddon maybe.. and the whines are really from the solo gankers who suddenly, have a huge problem in that they can't solo gank quite so easily now, at least, not without a really huge isk loss on their KM, boohoo for them, no more easy target to pad their win/loss ratio's out with. meanwhile, out in the belts somewhere, i'll be mining in a retriever, it only has 15k ehp... no problem eh come get some TwistedPirate
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#200 - 2012-08-14 13:57:09 UTC  |  Edited by: MisterNick
Pre-patch: "Waaaaa my barge is made of paper and dies if you look at it the wrong way"
Post-patch: "Waaaa those mean Mackinaws hurt my hauler's feelings"

In other news, £50 notes don't fit in my wallet very well Cry

Think you might as well scrap the haulers in belts? Feel free. If you're really so bothered about min-maxing though you'll notice that if you just haul with your Mack then you lose out on mining time while shuttling between station and belt.

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."