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Amarr Cap use 'Non-Bonus' - a Solution

Author
Weasel Juice
Mayhem and Destruction
#21 - 2012-06-04 13:37:35 UTC
Yes, you could argue that we soak a lot of cap, and the cap usage bonus comes at the expense of a secondary bonus like a second RoF/Damage/Tracking/Armor bonus most of the time, but we make up for that by being able to instantly switch crystals, not having to fill our cargo bay with ammo, shooting at long optimal ranges with good tracking, all of our T2 ammo is a whopping upgrade from T1 ammo.

To me the cap usage bonus reads as: "Winsauce Lasers are restricted to Amarr hulls only"

The real issue that should be addressed is the Legion. With Lasers it's nothing but a glorified super-expensive Zealot, and you cannot really expect me to fly it as a HAM Legion with total crap range, when the Proteus gets 1.5x more DPS at the same range without crap missiles. That pretty much leaves me with the Drone subsystem (which again is the only one that does not give bonuses to weapons) or the Covert Ops subsystem (which ALSO is the only one that does not give DPS bonuses to weapons).

Slot layout is the second issue. Proteus should have one slot shifted from low to mid in it's subsystems, and Legion should have one shifted from mid to low, with a general increase in PG (Seeing as it's currently impossible to fit 6 heavies, 1600, cap injector, MWD without additional mods/implants).

I'd rather see some love finally coming for the Legion, rather than a change to Lasers. Lasers are fine. Legion is not.

I am Amarr. For God, Empire and Empress!
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-06-04 18:07:15 UTC
Weasel Juice wrote:
Snip

The Cap use is to make up for the fact that Lasers dont use ammo
The Instant ammo swaps are to make up for the fact that amarr Typically Lack Range Controll.
Having Range mainly in optimal can be a disadvantage (See: Lasers with Multifrequency having less range than comparable Projectiles with EMP)
HAM Legion is another thread altogether (Missile Balancing), but my proposal would help the other 3 subsystems.
I feel like the Legion's PG Issues are more from the fact that medium (And small, but again, another thread) Lasers have ridiculous PG use.

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Marzuq
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#23 - 2012-06-04 19:04:00 UTC
As a pilot who has 11 million sp in amarrian gunnery and 6 million in amarr ships, I can say that if you give a ship only a 10% reduction to cap usage and no other bonus to lasers, then it is a useless bonus.



Look at the prepatch punisher, maller, and prophecy. No one really bothered to use lasers on those ship and used hybrids and projectiles instead.

Lasers without any form of damage or range bonus are not worth using over projectiles and hybrids, due to higher cap usage even with the cap cost bonus, more demanding fitting, less tracking, etc.

All the ships that only provide a 10% cap reduction to lasers and nothing else for lasers need to be changed. It is a useless bonus when there is no real reward for using lasers on that ship in the first place.
PinkKnife
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-06-04 19:25:13 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
Seishi Maru wrote:
LAsers are intrinsically more poerful than other weapon systesm when you compare them outside of any ship That is why they get a bonus for jsut being able to use them. That surely limits a lot the balance possibilities butyou cannto remove it without nerfing the damage projetion of lasers or the powerul tachyons.


At end I think its just better to tweak a few things on the least useful ships than change somethign that dramatic.


Um no. Perhaps when EVE started but the other turrets have been buffed over the years to make lasers kinda of meh

A ship bonused for lasers should never have a fit using projectiles that is viable. I.e. the arty abaddon should never be a better fit than the beam abaddon.

likewise a Neutron Maelstrom should never be more effective (and it isn't) than an autocannon maelstrom.

Yet, we DO see arty and projectile fit Amarr boats all the time.

The cap use bonus essentially just makes fitting the guns possible. This should be addressed (and is) by their ridiculous fitting requirements, not also in the ship bonuses.

Rather than reducing the cap bonus, why not invert it. Give the Amarr boats a bonus to capacitor amount per level. While not intrinsic more useful, it accomplishes the same thing while allowing for more variation (active tanking more possible). There are other alternatives as well, but that was the first one that came to me.

The issue is a combination of projectiles being unbalanced, and the other weapons needing to be either buffed, or projectiles brought down.

Yes, lasers have better optimal, but they have drastically less fall off. If Scorch didn't exists, how many people would even bother using them as is?

So for a nice comparison. Excluding missiles because that is a whole different topic.

EFT DPS - Hybrids
Alpha - Projectiles
Applicable DPS - Projectiles
Cap Use - Projectiles
Optimal - Lasers
Fall off - Projectiles
Rate of fire - (I believe Hybrids as well)
Tracking - Hybrids
Damage type - Projectiles
Reload times - Lasers
Ammunition use - Lasers
Fitting - Projectiles (not sure on this one).

Out of these different stats, the most useful ones relating to applicable DPS, the projectiles come out on almost every front. The things Lasers have benefits to, have no real effect in fleet fights (not structure shooting). Reloading time and how much cargo is taken up by ammo is only useful for PVE.

They don't use cap, They have the greatest applicable DPS ( optimal + fall off), they can change damage types) They have the highest alpha capability. Ignoring the balance issues of Minmatar ships, the turrets alone need some sort of downside outside of rate of fire.


As I said earlier, the effectiveness of energy turrets is already balanced in their higher fitting requirements, it should not also be fully nerfed in their cap use/effective bonuses on a ship designed to use energy turrets.

I personally would like it changed to anything else, give it the Gallente useless bonus to active reps, but something other than cap use.
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-06-04 20:58:21 UTC
Disagree with a few of the above points:
Changing Laser Cap use bonus to Capacitor Ammount Bonus: This is even worse than the current cap use bonus. Assuming Lasers are the only Form of Cap use, your suggestion would Increase the cap use (Currently, the cap use bonus halves the cap use, your suggestion increases cap ammount by a third)
This would also make Projectiles MORE popular on amarr ships and that is the opposite of what we want to do.
Giant Capacitor Capacity + Capless Guns + Neuts = Winmatar 2.0
The Active armor Rep bonus would be just as bad:
Prophecy: 5% Bonus to Armor Resists and 10% bonus to Armor Repairer Repair Ammount Per Level.

I stand by my original Statement: Laser Cap use need to drop 30ish% and the cap use bonus needs to go and be replaced by something more useful.

Look at it this way:
Tormentor. In many ways inferior to other frigates. If its cap use bonus were to be replaced with an Optimal Range Bonus, suddenly it becomes alot more useful - slowly chipping away at opponents from range with scorch and drones.

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Kitt JT
True North.
#26 - 2012-06-04 21:37:06 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
... the Armageddon is exactly the same and also suffers terribly from being virtually immobile, very cap intensive, having insufficient medslots to fit any kind of counter-ewar or range control modules and not having enough CPU and power grid for you to be able to fit it in an acceptable way.


The SOCO disagrees with you.

Last year, the geddon usurped the abaddon as the amarr brawler for many reasons. But the geddon would be nearly impossible to fly without the cap bonus as well.




And a response to the thread as a whole: Every race has ships with a bonus that is not the most useful.

Amarr: The cap use bonus is seen by many as not as effective (although some ships such as the geddon benefit greatly from it)
Gallente: The armour rep amount bonus is seen by many as not as effective (save some such as a triple rep myrm)
Caldari: The missile velocity bonus is by far the least useful caldari ship bonus. (granted it does have its uses)
Minmatar: I really don't know, someone help me out here P
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-06-04 23:13:37 UTC
Kitt JT wrote:
Amarr: The cap use bonus is seen by many as not as effective (although some ships such as the geddon benefit greatly from it)
Gallente: The armour rep amount bonus is seen by many as not as effective (save some such as a triple rep myrm)
Caldari: The missile velocity bonus is by far the least useful caldari ship bonus. (granted it does have its uses)
Minmatar: I really don't know


Minmatar have the Shield Boost ammount bonus.
Also, you forgot Caldari Hybrid optimal Range. This is another non-bonus that should be looked at, on both Hybrid and Missile ships (And especially on T2 Double Range Bonus Ships) but thats another discussion.

The Issues here are that Just about EVERY Amarr (And Caldari) ship has their racial non bonus. Minmatar and Gallente dont.

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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#28 - 2012-06-05 00:54:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Also, you forgot Caldari Hybrid optimal Range. This is another non-bonus that should be looked at, on both Hybrid and Missile ships (And especially on T2 Double Range Bonus Ships) but thats another discussion.


Optimal range is not a nonbonus, nor is cap use.

Most ships without a cap use bonus have major cap problems. That's why you don't see lasers used on every ship under the sun. Every race has bonuses to cover up the normal weaknesses of their racial weapon system. Projectiles do **** all for damage, which is why virtually every minmatar ship has a damage bonus. Gallente blasterboats get tracking bonuses to make up for the awful range projection (they -have- to be point blank).
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-06-06 02:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mira Lynne
Kahega Amielden wrote:

Optimal range is not a nonbonus


Rails already have Stupid Long Range - More Range is the Last thing they need. The Range Bonus works on a FEW Ships (Naga, but thats more the mixture of Range and Damage)
Optimal Range Bonus on Blasters is like Polishing a Turd.

In any Case, thats off topic - as has been said before, Lasers USED to be the most powerful, making the loss of a second bonus a viable tradeoff. However, Projectiles and Hybrids have been buffed to the point where the loss of a second bonus for the 'privilege' of using lasers simply isnt worth it.
The Cap use bonus is simply outdated. Thats the problem - lasers are simply no longer worth the loss of the second bonus.

Ed:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Most ships without a cap use bonus have major cap problems

Untrue (Or Atleast not as big a problem as you make it out to be. See: Post #18 - PL Abaddons)
Kahega Amielden wrote:
That's why you don't see lasers used on every ship under the sun. Every race has bonuses to cover up the normal weaknesses of their racial weapon system. Projectiles do **** all for damage, which is why virtually every minmatar ship has a damage bonus. Gallente blasterboats get tracking bonuses to make up for the awful range projection (they -have- to be point blank).

True, however, Minmatar Damage bonuses more than compensate for projectiles' low DPS. Amarr Cap use bonus does not compensate for the loss of a Bonus. As much as i hate to Drag Caldari Range Bonuses back into the discussion, They do little to help with blasters, and Little to help with Rails' true issue - their DPS. Your argument (Bonuses make up for weaknesses) is hardly all encompasing. Also, gallente Damage and Tracking Bonuses doesnt make up for Blasters Weakness (Range) - but it embraces the good attributes of the weapon system while maintaining its weaknesses - Stupid DPS at 0 Range.

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Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-06-10 03:35:51 UTC
Final Bump
There has to be more Amarr Diehards than this?

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Zelk Ovah
Code Terminus
#31 - 2012-08-11 15:00:19 UTC
Mira Lynne wrote:
Final Bump
There has to be more Amarr Diehards than this?


Yes!, I totally agree, amarr 10% cap bonus needs to be looked at. Like someone else said, there's something wrong when some amarr ships are better with projectiles or missiles than with lasers. Funny thing is almost every ship that wont be using race specific guns defaults to projectiles most of the time. I haven't seen any non-amarr ship using lasers instead of their race specific guns because it would be better.

PS: and for the love to the empress, give the Legion some well deserved love.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2012-08-11 15:45:56 UTC
Supported.

This cap usage bonus is simply outdated. The fact that it is being replaced with a different bonus on more and more ships is proof. First the Abaddon, now the Punisher and soon the Harbinger.
Lavitakus Bromier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-08-11 16:21:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Lavitakus Bromier
Laser need to take less cap in general... If all lasers were reduced by as little as 10% cap it'll make them slightly more desirable
I like to partake in frigate warfare. And the only setup for a puni that.can downright own most other t1 frigs. My cap last only 24 secs. And no I don't have a armor repair on just buffer tanked

Edit: I also can only use gatling pulse laser with it also.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#34 - 2012-08-11 16:47:27 UTC
Whatever is done about lasers i hope they do something like this.

The fact is that the 10% turret cap bonus really, Really is a non bonus.... Most ships would be far better off with some other bonus Ever without a change to lasers.

The fact simply is that lasers aren't powerful enough to justify their glaring weaknesses, ie the terrible tracking/cap use. Something needs to be done, i want my beautiful golden bricks to be useful for something other than big fleet fights =<

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2012-08-12 01:31:59 UTC
Well since I posted in other threads about this. I support looking into this.

I think you could go several ways about this.

1. Some of the proposals in this thread. Either changing the cap use of lasers themselves, or buffing the cap/cap regen of most Amarr ships to make them viable, while removing the cap use bonus from the ships.

2. I think it is an interesting idea to give each race's ship a role bonus that boosts that race's weapon system. Cap use on lasers, tracking on hybrids, something on projectiles(maybe)

3. Nerf projectile damage selection down to EX and KIN and add a very tiny cap use. Just so if they are completely capped out they can't shoot. Even 1 cap per activation. Or heck even 0.1 cap.

4. Buff laser stats to make them the terror they were in the early game. More optimal and damage. To offset the buffs hybrids and projectiles have received. (this is the worst idea but hey some crazy people work at CCP)

I just don't see why Amarr the capacitor race caps out faster than anyone else. Even on the bonused ships.
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#36 - 2012-08-12 11:38:56 UTC
To be honest. I think the biggest issue with turret balance currently is that weapon systems have become too blurred.

Blasters are supposed to be the best in close range but because of tracking issues within their optimal range auto cannons seem to be better.

Pulses are supposed to have the best damage projection but because AC's have such fantastic fall off combined with very good tracking and damage they still manage to out damage pulse lasers.

I think we really need to try and return weapon systems to what they should be.

Pulse lasers should have best damage projection but worst tracking (current)
Blasters should be able to track at optimal range so they can apply their DPS
AC's shouldn't be able to outperform the other turrets when they are fighting in their opponents advantage zone.

Basically, AC's need a slight tracking and damage nerf (just my opinion). The tracking nerf is so they don't outshine blasters in close range and the small damage nerf would mean that fighting vs pulses; pulses would deal more damage at range than AC's.

This still leaves AC's with the best versatility though. They can still kite vs blasters and get under the guns vs pulses. They also have damage type selection and capless weapons.

Also. Side note. Make AC's require more PG to fit. They're simply far too easy to fit.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2012-08-12 12:55:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
What I would do is just reducing laser cap usage by 50% and remove the -10% laser cap usage bonus, replacing it with a 5% damage per level on hulls that have no damage bonus. The ships that already have a damage bonus are reviewed individually, trying to give them a useful but not overpowered bonus:

Tormentor: tracking bonus.

Executioner: tracking bonus.

Coercer: will be good with the upcoming destroyer rebalancing. It has enough tracking. An armor resist, optimal or damage bonus would make it too good. Thus it gets a +15% scan resolution bonus per level which is nice but not overpowered.

Omen: tracking bonus.

Maller: damage bonus.

Prophecy: damage bonus (if it remains as laser ship, which is unlikely)

Harbinger: armor resist bonus.

Oracle: tracking bonus.

Armageddon: tracking bonus.

Apocalypse: damage bonus.

Retribution: already has a damage bonus and a tracking bonus but its dps is on the low side. The -10% laser cap usage per level and the existing 5% damage per level bonus are merged into a 10% damage per level bonus.

Crusader: has a tracking bonus already and its dps is on the low side. The -10% laser cap usage per level and the existing 5% damage per level bonus are merged into a 10% damage per level bonus.

Zealot: tracking bonus.

Absolution: tracking bonus.

Devoter: damage bonus.

Redeemer: has both a tracking and a rof bonus, and an armor resist bonus doesn't fit the role. 15% bonus to scan resolution per level.

Legion cloaky subsytem: damage bonus.

Legion drone subsystem: damage bonus.

Legion laser subsystem: tracking bonus.

Revelation: I'm clueless about capitals.

Ships that remain unchanged: Punisher, Abaddon, Paladin, Avatar, all Sansha and Blood Raider ships.


The "good" ships aren't made better at what they are already good at with this, but it makes them better at what they were bad for previously, which is either long fights (Abaddon) or tracking stuff in close quarters. It's mostly making them more versatile.

The "mediocre" or "bad" ships finally get a second useful bonus that brings them up to par.

The Maller & Prophecy are proof that lasers without a damage bonus are undesirable even with a -50% cap useage bonus, so I do not believe that lasers will suddenly be fitted to other race's ships if their cap requirements are slashed.
Lavitakus Bromier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-08-14 15:09:21 UTC
Bump. Still needs love
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#39 - 2012-08-14 15:11:56 UTC
Lavitakus Bromier wrote:
Bump. Still needs love


Disagree. Cap use is one of the balancing factors on a short range weapon system that can hit to long range weapon ranges with t2 ammo.
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