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How it is possible to kill ship not doing full damage ?
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Zbychari
SMALL is NICE
#1 - 2012-08-10 17:14:52 UTC
Stil being not very experienced and playing only casually I wonder how it is possible.
I recently lost Hulk. No big deal - I can live with it but I wonder how the mats are done.
Hulk is supposed to have 2000 HP structure + 1800 HP armor + 2200 HP shield = 6000 HP
with 2 invulnerability II it is about 100000 EHP or more (in my case it was slightly over 13 k EHP).

but from kill log I read :
Damage Taken: 5226

...
Ship: Catalyst
Weapon: Catalyst
Damage Done: 2306

...
Faction: None
Ship: Catalyst
Weapon: Light Neutron Blaster II
Damage Done: 2920

Only these 2 Catalysts attacked and destroyed me in under 10 sec.
Well fitted Catalyst with Light Neutron Blaster II is doing about 400 DPS

Shoudn't it take more than 10 sec to kill Hulk ?
Again I poit that I'm not complaining loss but I'm curious about the maths as something there seems wrong...
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#2 - 2012-08-10 17:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Denidil
damage displayed in killmail is real damage. external fitting tools and the ingame fitting tool show "EHP" - which is the effective hitpoints when your resists are taken into effect.


Enemy DPS -> reduced by your resists to their damage type = their real DPS
Your HP -> scaled by your resists to their damage type = your effective HP to their damage type.

was your lost before or after the patch? and if you got suicided after the patch in a hulk....

[edit]
i just looked up your fit.. you had a shitfit dude.. cargohold optimization hulks = ******.

go buy a mackinaw, and fit a tank. i have a thread open with fits

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Zbychari
SMALL is NICE
#3 - 2012-08-10 17:52:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zbychari
I know it was no real tank but it was for tanking rats not human idiots who can not find real challenge. Or afraid of real challenge.
Would you mind linking your thread ?
It happened just before patch .
But I can not understand the math.
Cata dps is about 400 dps kinetic/thermal with more kinetic (blasters) with antimatter.
2 X Invul II + native shield resists should reduce it by 70% at least = ~180-190- effective dps
I see no maths proving it should be possible to take out 6000 HP in under 10 sec.
Unless CCP implemented some "undocumented" boost to shooting ships or gimped defence...
Anyway 2 Cata with effective 190 dps in 10 sec is 3800 HP. To 6000 HP is still few seconds.
Not to mention working shield booster...
Something seems VERY not correct
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#4 - 2012-08-10 17:56:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Denidil
Zbychari wrote:
It happened just before patch .
But I can not understand the math.
Cata dps is about 400 dps kinetic/thermal with more kinetic (blasters) with antimatter.
2 X Invul II + native shield resists should reduce it by 70% at least = ~180-190- effective dps
I see no maths proving it should be possible to take out 6000 HP in under 10 sec.
Unless CCP implemented some "undocumented" boost to shooting ships or gimped defence...
Anyway 2 Cata with effective 190 dps in 10 sec is 3800 HP. To 6000 HP is still few seconds.
Not to mention working shield booster...
Something seems VERY not correct


your dps numbers for a catalyst are low, and you don't seem to understand overheating. plus you didn't have a freaking deadspace booster.. no way you were tanking a SINGLE cata.

plus you have **** for EHP because of cargo extender rigs, cargohold mods and no freaking shield extenders.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14247641

you had two tech 2 catalysts on you.. if they were both overheating and using void then they were slinging a combined 1200 dps.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Zbychari
SMALL is NICE
#5 - 2012-08-10 18:13:27 UTC
Ah my bad. I didn't take void ammo into consideration.
With void and overhited it can be around 600 dps for one cata.
After ship and invulns II resists it is below 300 dps max.
2 cata = 600 dps so in 10 sec it can be done but how it is possible in under 10 sec.
Overheating didn't add SO much.
So no way to tank Hulk for lasting over 10 sec.
As there is no way to tank against idiots it is reasonable to fit for max yeld because if they land on me I'm dead.
If they didn't land on me - at least I have more ore mined.
Zhu Khan
Khanid Arbitrage Incorporated
#6 - 2012-08-10 21:17:51 UTC
Remember that the Inv IIs apply to your shield resistance. Once your shields are gone, I don't believe the resistances are going to apply as much if at all. Since you're getting hit with blasters, your recharge rate is probably not going to be very relevant.

Additionally, the Expanded Cargohold II reduces your structure HPs by 20% and your Cargohold Optimization Rigs reduce your Armor HPs by 10% - your level in Astronautic Rigging each. That may play into it as well.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-08-10 21:31:40 UTC  |  Edited by: steave435
Zbychari wrote:
Ah my bad. I didn't take void ammo into consideration.
With void and overhited it can be around 600 dps for one cata.
After ship and invulns II resists it is below 300 dps max.
2 cata = 600 dps so in 10 sec it can be done but how it is possible in under 10 sec.
Overheating didn't add SO much.
So no way to tank Hulk for lasting over 10 sec.
As there is no way to tank against idiots it is reasonable to fit for max yeld because if they land on me I'm dead.
If they didn't land on me - at least I have more ore mined.

Like Zhu Khan said, that is only while you're still in shields, and once you get down to structure you have no resists at all, so they do full damage.
In addition to that, it's not about the sustained DPS. An overheating Cata can do 648 DPS in theory, but short term it will be about how many volleys they can get off (keeping in mind that they didn't have to wait for the first one - it just fired instantly.
With a ROF of 1.92 seconds, they get to fire once at the start and then their guns will cycle 5 more times, for a total of 6 volleys. Each volley do 1249 damage, so rather then just putting out 648 dps*10 seconds = 6480 damage, they actually put out 1249 volley*6 volleys =7494 damage in 9.6 seconds.

Your conclusion is wrong though, you simply need a better fit. Yours has 12.2k EHP, but something like the one below has 29.8k with pre-patch stats (there's no new EFT version yet), and if that's still not enough, you can use a Skiff with their new super tanks.
[Hulk, Zbychari's Hulk copy 1]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Medium Shield Extender II
Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Scordite Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Scordite Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Scordite Mining Crystal II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

You can swap the EM hardener for a named small shield booster if you need it to keep your shields topped up at the cost of 2k EHP, but if you can't clear the rats fast enough any other way, that's worth it since you would otherwise be starting with some shield damage already applied before the gankers start shooting.

It's not impossible to kill, but someone just looking for a Hulk to gank would go for someone else instead of bringing more/larger ships to kill you specifically, unless they have a grudge against you for whatever reason.
Finally, remember to train shield management, mechanics and hull upgrades. They increase your shield, armor and structure HP by 5%/level, and tactical shield management may help too. Some claim that if damage leak trough the shield, the leaking damage is extra damage that would otherwise not have been done, while others say that the damage is moved from shields to armor. If it's the first, then getting armor bleed means that you take more damage.
Norm Tempesta
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-08-10 21:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Norm Tempesta
The math, only the damage that actually makes it through your shield resists, armor resists, etc. is actually shown on the KM. They put more damage out but you are only seeing what actually hit your ship.

When you see a battleship (for instance) that takes 300k damage over the course of a fight, it is because they are using some type of repair module.
Zbychari
SMALL is NICE
#9 - 2012-08-10 23:49:19 UTC
steave - thx for suggestion fit - seems good but I don't think Hulk have enough CPU and power for it all (sure not for all tier II).
This is something I been thinking of. At least something to start.
I was thinking about with EFT (have to checkas its going to work in real fitting) :
Not enough CPU for Strip II or anything else but EFT is not updated so something better may work - anyway this gives over 32 k EHP

Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Internal Force Field Array I

Medium Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II / or EM

Strip Miner I
Strip Miner I
Strip Miner I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-08-11 06:41:04 UTC  |  Edited by: steave435
Zbychari wrote:
steave - thx for suggestion fit - seems good but I don't think Hulk have enough CPU and power for it all (sure not for all tier II).
This is something I been thinking of. At least something to start.
I was thinking about with EFT (have to checkas its going to work in real fitting) :
Not enough CPU for Strip II or anything else but EFT is not updated so something better may work - anyway this gives over 32 k EHP

Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Internal Force Field Array I

Medium Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II / or EM

Strip Miner I
Strip Miner I
Strip Miner I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Unless the patch reduced the Hulks CPU/grid, it fits perfectly fine. You just need to train your fitting skills (engineering, shield upgrades, electronics). I'm not sure if weapons upgrades and advanced weapons upgrades work on mining lasers, if so, you need those too.
Your fit gives even more EHP, but at the cost of mining yield. It works fine, it's just up to you where you want to place yourself in the tank/yield balance, but I think a Skiff would get a higher yield then your Hulk while getting ~80k EHP.
Alara IonStorm
#11 - 2012-08-11 06:55:40 UTC
steave435 wrote:

Your fit gives even more EHP, but at the cost of mining yield. It works fine, it's just up to you where you want to place yourself in the tank/yield balance, but I think a Skiff would get a higher yield then your Hulk while getting ~80k EHP.

This, without a mining laser upgrade your yield is only slightly above a Skiff in a Hulk.
Aaewen Hrothgarson
eXtreme Co
SLYCE Pirates
#12 - 2012-08-12 11:52:22 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
steave435 wrote:

Your fit gives even more EHP, but at the cost of mining yield. It works fine, it's just up to you where you want to place yourself in the tank/yield balance, but I think a Skiff would get a higher yield then your Hulk while getting ~80k EHP.

This, without a mining laser upgrade your yield is only slightly above a Skiff in a Hulk.


It's even below the yield of a Covetor.

Covetor:
4 % bonus to strip miner yield per level of Barge skill (MORE than the Hulk who has only 3%)

Hulk
3 % bonus to strip miner yield per level of Barge skill (LESS than the Covetor who has 4%)
3 % bonus to strip miner yield per level of Exhumer skill

Both can fit Mining Laser Upgrades which give 5% (T1) or 9% (T2) each.

So, for a Covetor with two fitted MLU II we get: 1.2 * 1.18 = 1.416 yield bonus
And for a Hulk without the MLUs we get (assuming someone even has Exhumer 5 ...): 1.15 * 1.15 = 1.3225 yield bonus

(Assuming the same strip miners)


Why outfit a T2 hull with lots of expensive modules when you can have MORE yield with a barge, which is probably very unatttractive to gankers and costs a tenth of a Hulk? Makes no economical sense.