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Miner tears and the new patch.
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Dave Stark
#181 - 2012-08-09 15:50:46 UTC
highonpop wrote:
It takes a **** ton of mining in high sec to get you ISK back out of a hulk.


depends how good you are at keeping your hulk safe, i purchased mine a year ago at 130m, it's paid for itself many times over.
Kyrin Ongrard
Doomheim
#182 - 2012-08-09 15:50:50 UTC
tigger digger wrote:
Illest Insurrectionist wrote:
Got myself a mack and a hulk today so far. They still aren't fitting tanks. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14268989

The OP does seem correct. There is a ton of crying in the newbie npc corps. Despite the mackinaw giving much better actual yield for solo players they still want their hulks to be everything.


I was complaining about having a hulk for 3 weeks and then having to get a Mackinaw (274M Isk) to solo mine, but the Mackinaw now is sufficiently better than my hulk before that I'm not complaining anymore.

There still isn't enough CPU to make a good tank, but I can live with this.


NOTE: This post is being made under the assumption the above post about the cpu being too low is in regards to a mack. If the above post saying there isnt enough cpu to fit a decent tank is in reference to a hulk, feel free to ignore this post entirely

Im going to have to dispute this. While I only fly a retriever atm, I would assume that the tech II resists can only serve to make the
tank stronger. On my retriever i run the following fit:

high
2 strip miner II(the kind that can use crystals)
Mid
1 adaptive invuln
lows
1 damage control unit II
2 meta something mlus(cant use t2s yet)
rigs
med anti-em screen
med anti-thermal screen
med core field extender

stats come out to 3min cap with invuln running, stable with it off, 13k ish ehp with just the dcu II and 15k ish with invuln as well. mining output is about 1.4k m3 with correct crystals but no boosts. Mind you the character i use this on is nowhere near perfect skills with only about 5mil sp total.

With this in mind, getting the mack to a decent, hell even amazing tank should be fairly easy. While yes a little messing with the mods to get the best going would need to happen, im sure its still very much possible.
Dave Stark
#183 - 2012-08-09 15:54:58 UTC
Kyrin Ongrard wrote:
tigger digger wrote:
Illest Insurrectionist wrote:
Got myself a mack and a hulk today so far. They still aren't fitting tanks. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14268989

The OP does seem correct. There is a ton of crying in the newbie npc corps. Despite the mackinaw giving much better actual yield for solo players they still want their hulks to be everything.


I was complaining about having a hulk for 3 weeks and then having to get a Mackinaw (274M Isk) to solo mine, but the Mackinaw now is sufficiently better than my hulk before that I'm not complaining anymore.

There still isn't enough CPU to make a good tank, but I can live with this.


NOTE: This post is being made under the assumption the above post about the cpu being too low is in regards to a mack. If the above post saying there isnt enough cpu to fit a decent tank is in reference to a hulk, feel free to ignore this post entirely

Im going to have to dispute this. While I only fly a retriever atm, I would assume that the tech II resists can only serve to make the
tank stronger. On my retriever i run the following fit:

high
2 strip miner II(the kind that can use crystals)
Mid
1 adaptive invuln
lows
1 damage control unit II
2 meta something mlus(cant use t2s yet)
rigs
med anti-em screen
med anti-thermal screen
med core field extender

stats come out to 3min cap with invuln running, stable with it off, 13k ish ehp with just the dcu II and 15k ish with invuln as well. mining output is about 1.4k m3 with correct crystals but no boosts. Mind you the character i use this on is nowhere near perfect skills with only about 5mil sp total.

With this in mind, getting the mack to a decent, hell even amazing tank should be fairly easy. While yes a little messing with the mods to get the best going would need to happen, im sure its still very much possible.


why not just fly a procurer? the size of the ore bay doesn't really outweigh the fact that you'll have double the tank and the exact same yield.
Evil Cleaner
Clean Evil Incorporated
#184 - 2012-08-09 15:56:18 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Evil Cleaner wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Then avoid ganks via active methods instead of expecting to just weather any profitable gank. (still fit the stiffest tank you can with MLUs, ofc).


that's exactly what i do with my main account, my alt just flys an untanked ret because rets are pocket change now.


Where are you buying them at? I bought one the day before the patch at a little over 10 mill and now they are selling for over 20 mill. And the Procurer went from 6 mill to 16 mill. Still cheap but how often do you get to see a price jump like this?

I was all excited to finally get my retriever bc of the 2000 cargo bay but to find that is has a 25,000 m3 cargo hold just for the ore. That and they threw in more defense really made my day. I am laughing at the hulk owners. All that training and they got shafted..

Looks like I picked a good time to start playing again. So no miner tears from me.


even to a miner where income is roughly **** poor levels, 20m is still pocket change, it's an hours work maybe more for a solo miner. also the price jumped because the demand jumped and the price won't come down again because the mineral costs have changed[gone up].

hulk owners didn't get shafted at all, they're mining about 15% more than you at max skills if you do the math from the dev blog. if you think they're wasting 15% of their time hauling you're deluded.

mining scordite in my perfect skill max yield hulk with 10% fleet bonus and 3% implant nets me just shy of 22m per hour mining veld, a touch more if i mine scodite, and a touch more again if i cherry pick the 5% and 10% variants.

once again; rets are pocket change.


I understand its pocket change. I just seen an endless flow of ranting last night over the changes. All of it from solo hulk miners. Mainly about having to dock more often & cargo rigs being useless - Expensive. Sounds more like I cant afk mine anymore in my hulk to me.

Evil Is in my name, So what did you expect?
Dave Stark
#185 - 2012-08-09 16:00:34 UTC
Evil Cleaner wrote:
I understand its pocket change. I just seen an endless flow of ranting last night over the changes. All of it from solo hulk miners. Mainly about having to dock more often & cargo rigs being useless - Expensive. Sounds more like I cant afk mine anymore in my hulk to me.


never listen to the lamentations of the stupid. any one who ever flew a cargo expanded hulk was an idiot, you were making yourself extremely gank vulnerable and wasted a stupid amount of time warping to and fro to protect less than 3m isk worth of high sec ore per trip... why? just spend a few days get a mammoth and haul a whole jetcan at once from the safety of a tanked hulk.
Jagoff Haverford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#186 - 2012-08-09 16:52:45 UTC
Evil Cleaner wrote:
I understand its pocket change. I just seen an endless flow of ranting last night over the changes. All of it from solo hulk miners. Mainly about having to dock more often & cargo rigs being useless - Expensive. Sounds more like I cant afk mine anymore in my hulk to me.
It's not really about the end of "solo afk mining" in a Hulk. At least, not for me. And I really don't mind the need to be in a fleet, since I usually mine in fleets. It's more the mechanism that CCP used to get to this goal. The ore bay in the Hulk could have been made even smaller than it was, which would have required the use of haulers to carry the ore away. Hell, they could have even set the Hulk up so that it couldn't fire its lasers or undock from a station without being in a fleet. The only thing most of us are asking for in enough space to carry a reasonable amount of "ammo" for our "guns".

This nonsense about only carrying 4 sets of crystals at a time is just a really, really bad idea. The Hulk has 3 lasers to keep fed with crystals. Along with being a master of output (while in a fleet), it's ability to mine 3 different ores at the same time should also make it a master of diversity. But it can't carry enough crystals to do that job.

Sure, a hauler can bring crystals out to the miner in a fleet support role. But these crystals aren't cheap little 400 ISK missiles. Some of the T2 crystals cost a fair chunk of change, and they all look alike in a hauler's cargo hold.

Look at it this way. There are 16 different ore types in the game. The Hulk can now only carry enough "ammo" to deal (at an optimal level) with just 4 of them. This would be same as saying that all missile ships could carry one and only one type of missile in their cargo hold at a time. Why on earth would you even need to carry more than one type of missile, especially if you are in a fleet? You could assign different pilots to hit different kinds of targets, and you could bring a hauler with you if you feel the need to change from one missile type to another?

Sure, we could all work around that kind of a limitation, but nobody would argue that it would make the game more fun to play. The dude flying a cloaky hauler on a Drake roam, getting zero kills and doing nothing but jetcanning missiles all night certainly wouldn't be having any fun. Nor will the Hulk pilot whose nearly new, 8.3 million ISK set of T2 Arkonor crystals got swapped out with somebody else's set of 93% damaged T1s, especially when nobody can figure out where his original crystals went.

If they are really worried about Hulk's becoming mini-industrials, then give them a crystal bay that can't hold ore or anything other than mining crystals. If they are really worried about the Hulk needing fleet support, then reduce its ore bay or adjust the fleet bonuses so that it really only surpasses the other exhumers when its in a fleet. But don't make them do something as senselessly boring as carrying only one-quarter of the ammo they need to do their jobs.
Tank Fila
The Norse Collective
Northern Frontier Group
#187 - 2012-08-09 17:56:59 UTC
Hiyora Akachi wrote:
Martineski wrote:
thanks but i am not a moron, it is only marginally better than the mackinaw. and make note they took the hulks defenses, and its cargo but gave nothing back. and i am not asking for UBER mining bonuses, just make it the MOST efficient like they claim. the point i am trying to make is that the hulk got absolutely 0 bonuses in this patch. oh wait it got a whole 1% bonus to ice harvesting, big deal. but better mining bonuses on the hulk would be better. as i state before, not to make it OP, but make it REALLY stand out as a fleet miner.

this patch could have gone better if it were more of a give/take patch, but over all for the hulk it was only a TAKE patch. also remember this patch was supposed to make mining more efficient as a whole, but the only ships that got MORE efficient were the lower tier ships, the hulk is exactly the same. better mining bonuses is not too much to ask.



/slams his head into his desk




YOU! YOU are whats wrong with miners! You want the best of everything! Can't stand that your precious little Hulk is no longer the King of Mining! Can't accept its a fleet miner now, you think CCP screwed up because what they REALLY meant to do was buff these other ships while making the Hulk still be a ******* God!

/endrant





I think the biggest complaint I have about this chamge is we spent 225Mill + on our Hulks and they get turned overnight into a fleet required ship. Spending that much isk on a ship that now must be flown in a fleet situation to be its most productive is not a good change, yes I can use a Retreiver to solo mine and not need to dock every 8 mins to unload. I guess its just the thought about all the time and isk spent to get into a Hulk feels kind of wasted now.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#188 - 2012-08-09 18:02:25 UTC
Tank Fila wrote:
I think the biggest complaint I have about this chamge is we spent 225Mill + on our Hulks and they get turned overnight into a fleet required ship.
“Overnight” has lasted a month. If you had no plans on flying fleet ships, why didn't you sell them off in preparation for the patch? You could probably eve had picked up a few of whatever it is you indent to fly now for much cheaper than they're currently going for.
Pipa Porto
#189 - 2012-08-09 18:09:55 UTC
Tank Fila wrote:
I think the biggest complaint I have about this chamge is we spent 225Mill + on our Hulks and they get turned overnight into a fleet required ship. Spending that much isk on a ship that now must be flown in a fleet situation to be its most productive is not a good change, yes I can use a Retreiver to solo mine and not need to dock every 8 mins to unload. I guess its just the thought about all the time and isk spent to get into a Hulk feels kind of wasted now.


So you didn't get any use out of the Hulk before the change? 'Cause if you did, training for it's not wasted.

By the way, Skiff >(probably) Retriever.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tank Fila
The Norse Collective
Northern Frontier Group
#190 - 2012-08-09 18:35:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tank Fila
Oh, I knew about it and planned for it as well. My Hulk will be front and center for Corp Ops, and other Exhumers and or Barges will be used for solo ops. That was just a general feeling about the change that happened. Its all good.

P.S. A Retreiver is cheap enough and should fit a good enough tank that it should not be ganked too often while an Exhumer might still be worth it Big smile
Pipa Porto
#191 - 2012-08-09 19:01:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Tank Fila wrote:
Oh, I knew about it and planned for it as well. My Hulk will be front and center for Corp Ops, and other Exhumers and or Barges will be used for solo ops. That was just a general feeling about the change that happened. Its all good.

P.S. A Retreiver is cheap enough and should fit a good enough tank that it should not be ganked too often while an Exhumer might still be worth it Big smile


~10k EHP protecting almost 30m ISK worth of droppable items? I'm pretty sure I can gank 10k EHP for less than 15m.

Good luck hoping everyone overlooks that Retriever.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
#192 - 2012-08-09 19:02:26 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Tank Fila wrote:
Oh, I knew about it and planned for it as well. My Hulk will be front and center for Corp Ops, and other Exhumers and or Barges will be used for solo ops. That was just a general feeling about the change that happened. Its all good.

P.S. A Retreiver is cheap enough and should fit a good enough tank that it should not be ganked too often while an Exhumer might still be worth it Big smile


~10k EHP protecting almost 30m ISK worth of droppable items? I'm pretty sure I can gank 10k EHP for less than 15m.


/signed

Now with 100% less Troll.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#193 - 2012-08-09 19:09:05 UTC
Posting here and figured out silly people are still silly people. No patch can fix that.

brb
LuNaRiAn SeRpEnT
Frontier Acquisitions
#194 - 2012-08-09 20:42:22 UTC
Trilanttia wrote:
Hiyora Akachi wrote:
I logged in today at around 8am Central. Switched to the Help channel and -DROWNED- in the miner tears.

Apparently, making anything besides the Hulk a viable miner is like punching a baby repeatedly.


yup, they pretty much nerfed the miners. dang now what should i do with those medium rigs i just bought?



Mining isn't nerfed...People just need to learn how to read.

A Hulk is now a better fleet miner. If you want to mine solo in an exhumer mine with a Mack...pretty easy solution that is definately not worth even a singly second of whining.

At what point did humanity start evolving backwards and becoming less advanced?
LuNaRiAn SeRpEnT
Frontier Acquisitions
#195 - 2012-08-09 20:44:22 UTC
Tank Fila wrote:
Hiyora Akachi wrote:
Martineski wrote:
thanks but i am not a moron, it is only marginally better than the mackinaw. and make note they took the hulks defenses, and its cargo but gave nothing back. and i am not asking for UBER mining bonuses, just make it the MOST efficient like they claim. the point i am trying to make is that the hulk got absolutely 0 bonuses in this patch. oh wait it got a whole 1% bonus to ice harvesting, big deal. but better mining bonuses on the hulk would be better. as i state before, not to make it OP, but make it REALLY stand out as a fleet miner.

this patch could have gone better if it were more of a give/take patch, but over all for the hulk it was only a TAKE patch. also remember this patch was supposed to make mining more efficient as a whole, but the only ships that got MORE efficient were the lower tier ships, the hulk is exactly the same. better mining bonuses is not too much to ask.



/slams his head into his desk




YOU! YOU are whats wrong with miners! You want the best of everything! Can't stand that your precious little Hulk is no longer the King of Mining! Can't accept its a fleet miner now, you think CCP screwed up because what they REALLY meant to do was buff these other ships while making the Hulk still be a ******* God!

/endrant





I think the biggest complaint I have about this chamge is we spent 225Mill + on our Hulks and they get turned overnight into a fleet required ship. Spending that much isk on a ship that now must be flown in a fleet situation to be its most productive is not a good change, yes I can use a Retreiver to solo mine and not need to dock every 8 mins to unload. I guess its just the thought about all the time and isk spent to get into a Hulk feels kind of wasted now.



Sell your hulk and get a mack. Did you even bother to read the patch notes before you turned on your tear faucet?
Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2012-08-09 20:49:41 UTC
Don't understand the tears, there was a little bit for everyone in those changes, even the solo/casual player got a lookin Shocked


Happy days


Tal

I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk
Herr Hammer Draken
#197 - 2012-08-09 22:44:34 UTC
What is really funny about all of this is the number of players that do not read the patch notes at all. Or if they did do not understand what they read.

This is not only miners but all eve players suffer greatly from this. I was the target of a catalyst gank today in my retriever.
He must have thought I was the same retriever as he used to gank a few days ago before the patch. He came right up in high sec and scramed and webed me and proceeded to fire. After the appropriate time concord responded and killed his ass. I cleaned his wreck. He was fitted for the old style retriver gank. Obviously he never got the memo either.
This describes the real eve. The vast majority of eve players are really clueless bunch and only know what you tell them in chat.
They never research or read anything do not read the forums, do not use any 3rd party web sites. Nope they only use chat for all their eve knowledge.

The 20 regular eve posters this thread are a representative group of the top 1% of eve players. The other 99% are clueless.
That includes gankers and miners alike.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Enarqie
Doomheim
#198 - 2012-08-09 22:48:27 UTC
C[_]. <---- tear cup =3
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#199 - 2012-08-10 02:04:40 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Tank Fila wrote:
Oh, I knew about it and planned for it as well. My Hulk will be front and center for Corp Ops, and other Exhumers and or Barges will be used for solo ops. That was just a general feeling about the change that happened. Its all good.

P.S. A Retreiver is cheap enough and should fit a good enough tank that it should not be ganked too often while an Exhumer might still be worth it Big smile


~10k EHP protecting almost 30m ISK worth of droppable items? I'm pretty sure I can gank 10k EHP for less than 15m.

Good luck hoping everyone overlooks that Retriever.

30m worth of stuff on my retreiver?

RFLMAOLOL!


No.
Herr Hammer Draken
#200 - 2012-08-10 02:41:36 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Tank Fila wrote:
Oh, I knew about it and planned for it as well. My Hulk will be front and center for Corp Ops, and other Exhumers and or Barges will be used for solo ops. That was just a general feeling about the change that happened. Its all good.

P.S. A Retreiver is cheap enough and should fit a good enough tank that it should not be ganked too often while an Exhumer might still be worth it Big smile


~10k EHP protecting almost 30m ISK worth of droppable items? I'm pretty sure I can gank 10k EHP for less than 15m.

Good luck hoping everyone overlooks that Retriever.

30m worth of stuff on my retreiver?

RFLMAOLOL!


No.


HAHA Yea you might have 12m worth of stuff on a retriever. And how much is going to drop 50% of that so on average what maybe 6m or so. And my retreiver has more than 10k ehp quite a bit more in fact.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"