Ships & Modules

2 nos 1 neut and a TP on a bhaalgorn??? dude that thing shouldnt even undock at the first place..

a well tanked rattler can tank you easily without the ASB if you dont neut it... if you keep neuting him, his hardeners will go off sometime and he will have to use more cap boosters.. and it takes 60 sec to to reload the thing, in the mean time, thats your shot to kill it and you can do it as long as you neut him enough to keep his hardeners down

if you insist on using nos, then make your tank active.. even with a **** active tank you can tank him long enough to kill him when he runs out of boosters

First off, single oversized ASB boosters really isn't a major issue. Yes, ships can carry boosters bigger than their class, but that happens with both buffer shield and armor modules as well, so if you are going to penalize oversized XL ASBs, you should penalize 1600mm plates and Large Shield Extenders. I've countered the oversized ASB matter plenty on the blog and in the forums and it isn't a concern.

Dual-ASB setups and Triple-ASB setups, however, and as a small reversal of my previous position, can be overpowered. But that LARGELY depending on the ship, and in most cases, you were sacrificing actual combat effectiveness for tank. Most of the fits I've seen were little better than Procurers with guns. However, in putting together a Triple-ASB Maelstrom fit, I would have to agree that this particular configuration is overpowered.

My thinking is that we already have a "diminishing returns" mechanic in the game that could effectively limit over ASB usage. I think that reducing the ASB effectiveness to say 60-70% for the second one, and 20 to 30% for the third one should make multiple ASB configurations more in line with small PVP needs.

The individual modules are overpowered, whether in a single, double, or quintuple configuration.

I chose not to go with an XL Cyclone because I had to give up two slots for mods that increased CPU. How many CPU enhancing modules would be required to equip two XL ASB’s on a Cyclone? Would it be useful for anything other than a bait ship then?

Also, a big advantage of the ASB was that it allowed you to drop the Cap injector in order to fit something useful like a Web. Isn’t changing it to require a Cap injector to run the ASB sort of missing the point?

Edit:
I am not opposed to limiting ships to one unit as they do with damage control units to avoid circumventing the built in drawback mechanism. After losing two single ASB Cyclones you are going to have a hard time convincing me that a single ASB is OP. In fact, I have gone back to flying Hurricanes. Buffer is still better than ASB when facing more than a few opponents. The theoretical effective health of the ASB is in reality quite ineffective when you die with 8 charges left in your ASB.

Edit 2:
Also, I can’t seem to fit both a Warp Disrupter and a ASB on a Cyclone. I am stuck fitting a Warp Scrambler, which sucks because I can’t catch anything unless it happens to land on top of me. Yet another reason I am going back to flying buffer fit Hurricanes.

Really? Are you actually joking? A buffer tank requires zero interaction from the pilot. It just "is". An ASB requires pilot interaction, i.e. you activate the ASB to get the boost. IN ADDITION, you must be mindful not to turn off the ASB when it is empty or else the 60 second reload starts whether you want it to or not. Let's not also add the fact that you have to purchase ASB "ammo" and try to be conservative about your cap charges because unless you can get more, your effective range gets curtailed rather quickly.

So yes, it does require better overall ship management.

And my proof is not proof? You're going to have to better than that.

Or you didn't prove anything and are just bad at Eve.

Obviously they have weaknesses and CAN be beaten, but that's hardly justification for them "not being overpowered." They are a straight upgrade over regular active tanking, and that is wrong.

Confident? No, in fact my testing put me at only BARELY able to outtank a typically fit Hurricane (one using Neuts). The battle was close enough that had I carried tackle, or if he had assault missile launchers, then it would have been a 30/70 chance that I would have lost. My skills for flying and arming the Cyclone are all topped out except for missiles, which are almost topped out. As it was, going against a Hurricane solo, I ran out of navy cap charges and was in cap.

And let's review what you said here. It wasn't just any module, it was a module DESIGNED to work with the Cyclone's defensive bonus. On a shield tanking ship. A ship that was ALWAYS MEANT to be the Minmatar's tanking Battlecruiser. As far as your Typhoon.. that thing couldn't hold its own against an exhumer, much less an ASB Cyclone. On top of that, none of the kills you listed are solo! If (and yes, it is a big "IF") the killmails are right, your damage varied greatly between 0% to 70% of the overall damage.

So.. No, that doesn't show they are overpowered at all. You just simply used better tactics than your enemy.

Now I have not done nearly as much 'testing' as most. But When I look at the cyclone, I see 8 weapon slots, with a 25% ROF bonus to 5 of them. They get a shield boosting bonus for the tank (I'm curious, does this affect the ASB numbers?).

When I look at the prophecy, I see a cap bonus, letting the ship USE a full rack of lasers, and 6 slots for them (can fit 1 missile I guess, but don't think anyone does), with no bonus at all on dps. They get a resistance bonus of 25% for the tank.


In pvp, as it stands, very few people fit active armor tanking (I hope the day comes where it is more viable, love my active tanking). So its buffer tanked for the prophecy.


Damage its looking like Cyclone > Prophecy.
Tanking for the first minute or so Prophecy > Cyclone.
Tanking past the first minute or so =/=
Tanking past a few minutes Cyclone > Prophecy
Tanking multiple targets Cyclone > Prophecy.
If Neuts are involved? Cyclone >>>>>>Prophecy.


Im not sure where you get 'on par with' from, but I see it as simply superior with ASB's. I did not bring up the Drake for comparison, because it also benefits from ASB, if maybe not as much, and Drake is kind of in a category of its own. Hurricanes are up their with them in popularity due to their versatility.

Saying you have to click a button to maintain it makes it more complicated ... not sure why that was brought up.


Im with Liang on this one.

Considering how utterly terrible regular active tanking is in PVP, tengu boosts and crystals notwithstanding, this is not a bad thing.

Buffer tanks have had huge buffs over the years while local tanking has slipped further and further away from viability, people screaming "OP!" about ancil boosters should've seen "regular active tanking" before the plate/extender buff and introduction of rigs.

ASB management requires more than just pushing a button. I detailed it already above. As far as your list goes, however, it is incorrect. As a side note, the only reason why anyone is thinking the ASB Cyclone is overpowered is because the Shield Boost bonus does work on ASBs.

For the Cyclone to be that effective in damage, you need to have spent considerable SP to train up both missiles and projectile weapons, whereas the Prophecy needs only to use lasers to be effective. Lasers have an excellent damage to range ratio, so while EFT may say that the Cyclone can do X amount of damage, in actual practice it is far less because fighting usually occurs in falloff, which lowers actual damage (as well as shot types) so the damage will be far less. So, this puts typical Cyclone pilot using five Autocannons that he has to fight with along with three weapons modules that he likely won't be well skilled in. As such, it will be rare that you would come against a pilot who is skilled optimally for the Cyclone.

Tanking multiple targets is also a very grey area, as it is possible for damage to outcycle a single ASB. Usually, ships that use ASBs tend not to have as good of resists and the Dual-ASB setups that are common, often sacrifice resists modules to their peril. On the flipside, the Cyclone is a much faster BC and without the penalties that buffer ships have, would be a much harder target to hit.