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miners and nullsec

Author
pooper stain
Pyrrhic-Victory
#1 - 2011-10-10 13:02:18 UTC
Can someone help me understand what ccp was thinking when it comes to null sec mining

-Mining ships are paper thin, sloooooo, lumbering, weak
-Orca is even worse in null / lowsec
-The rorqual is even more confusing, designed for only low / null it is supposed to take 5 miners jump into a site and then sit immobile for 5 mins in null with no means to defend its fleet (no combat ships in the hold??)

So I get that CCP says get friends to babysit you .....What pvp pilot in there right mind will babysit a mining fleet?? We all already know mining god mode hulks in null is one of the worst isk activities in the game. Why would miners split there meager earnings to have people babysit them. So here we have this Rorqual that can jump 5 miners only (no combat ships) into deep null, make himself a big target and pray no one comes into the system, why because with local, quick probes, easy DS finding miners is cake. To make matters worse the miners are easy pickens with only flee as there option, and with bubbles, and scrams it is too easy to pin and kill miners.

I just don't get it can someone help me understand the logic?
pussnheels
Viziam
#2 - 2011-10-10 13:22:53 UTC
the intention was and still is that minign in nullsec is something you do ina group and not solo

While hulks can tank battleships rats for only a limited time , time enough for someone to kill the rats

But as far i know or experienced it nullsec mining is a group effort , and in deed a efficient mining fleet needs babysitters
since the current nullsec attitude is pvp only you will find little or no help in getting combat pilots up in a mining ops
Why should they waste hours babysitting carebears while they can rat and plex and earn millions
There are some corporations who mine there and some renters try but usually end up getting extorted out of huge sums of money or ending up as target practice for a pet alliance that is actually blue to the alliance you are renting from


And then they dare to suggest that ccp should remove all abc ores from WH

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire

Xearal
Dead's Prostitutes
DARKNESS.
#3 - 2011-10-10 14:58:19 UTC
While things are 'safe', babysitters can just fly around doing anoms and such in their PvP ships. Then, when hostiles come knocking, warp to the mining fleet, and cover their escape. to the local POS where the Rorq is deployed, and their own combat ships are wating to be used.

Null Sec mining is never a solo or small group effort, but a corp effort. Not that I have much experience with this, but I know that our own high sec ops don't involve a few miners and half a belt. We strip Solar Systems.

If we can do that in highs sec with orca's and hulks, I would think a rorq + hulk fleet can easily do the same with null sec. All you need is to cut off access to the system with bubbles and whatnot, and a couple of scout alts on gates.

Been there, got the T-shirt, but with lowsec instead of null.

Does railgun ammunition come in Hollow Point?

pooper stain
Pyrrhic-Victory
#4 - 2011-10-10 15:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: pooper stain
well,
I see that CCP wanted it a group activity, Most real miners (not bots) like to mine in groups. group chat is fun for some of us nut jobs that like shooting rocks. But when it comes to Null sec, The risks are crazy compared to the reward. Is it not our PVP overlords that scream "risk vs reward"? What is risker then a 2 bil Rorqual with 5 100+mil hulks playing the sitting duck in a null sec roid patch. Yet 60mil isk/hour is pathetic rewards.

You mentioned Rorqual sitting at a POS? So now I have a ship with a Tractor beam bonus having to sit in a POS shield? So we have to use space for time and space for fueling, setup, and shutdown, just for 60mil isk and hour? I know ccp hates miners but wow!!

It looks like the reason CCP added high end minerals to loot drops was that null sec miners where not getting enough ore to the markets. Can't CCP improve on this and give miners back there function?
GreenSeed
#5 - 2011-10-10 22:57:50 UTC
you have to understand that CCP instead of letting pvers/pvpers have to look at the market and see what they want and then find out how to get it, they decided to provide to 90% of the playerbase means to have unlimited income without much risk. the idea was that if ppl can, via grinding, make their way to buy anything on the market, then the ppl who sell stuff would have no problem on selling their goods.

you dont need to be a genious to see the flaw on this... no risk means no ships get blown up, thus any new player after 8 months of grinding highsec can buy anything. and often already have everything...

so you can see how the income of your random highsec/sovnull pver is fixed, but your income is linked to how much is sold on the market / destroyed in game. and being as it is that pvers not only make money from bounties/LP, they can also salvage and reprocess.... so you even have to compete with their supply.

so you end up with this paradox, where the only "profession" that has any risk, even on highsec!, has the lowest income potencial. What?

there are many ways suggested to solve this. most usually ask for a buff to mining, wether with hulkier hulks or something armored to mine rarer minerals or a HUGE increase in the mineral cost of ships.

to me atleast, this solutions are just band aids, the real problem is highsec/nullsov missioning/incursioning having no risk. ships need to blow up so we can mine new ones.

on a space sim rpg like eve nothing should make more money than mining/manufacturing/trading. alliance warfare/random pvp roams/high risk pve like C5 anom runners, wich are usually "end game" activities should depend on manufacturers/traders to restock, and these two should depend on miners/salvagers.

i mean... its like real life... the economy starts with extraction, then production. and only then ppl buy it and figure out how to create revenue for themselves using the tools other ppl make.

as it is now you have huge alliances with little to no interest on any sort of economical play outside of "MAKE US MORE SUPERCAPS"... i mean look at the goons, they can afford to wage war on cooncord... and they shoot their own if they find them mining. xD
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#6 - 2011-10-10 23:48:10 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
i mean look at the goons, they can afford to wage war on cooncord... and they shoot their own if they find them mining. xD



Lol


Lando Tarsadan
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2011-10-11 13:37:49 UTC
pooper stain wrote:
well,
I see that CCP wanted it a group activity, Most real miners (not bots) like to mine in groups. group chat is fun for some of us nut jobs that like shooting rocks. But when it comes to Null sec, The risks are crazy compared to the reward. Is it not our PVP overlords that scream "risk vs reward"? What is risker then a 2 bil Rorqual with 5 100+mil hulks playing the sitting duck in a null sec roid patch. Yet 60mil isk/hour is pathetic rewards.

You mentioned Rorqual sitting at a POS? So now I have a ship with a Tractor beam bonus having to sit in a POS shield? So we have to use space for time and space for fueling, setup, and shutdown, just for 60mil isk and hour? I know ccp hates miners but wow!!

It looks like the reason CCP added high end minerals to loot drops was that null sec miners where not getting enough ore to the markets. Can't CCP improve on this and give miners back there function?


well you can mine in grav sites which makes it take more time for the enemy to find you (not alot but more time is needed) you can tank a hulk up to withstand the rats and if you have enogh drones you can also take out the spawn.

if you wanted to you can use the rorqs tractor to pick up the cans when you have the 3-400000 m3 it can carry if you want to risk the rorq for that. (makes the need for a dedicated hauler unneeded)

its riskful for sure some people like the playstyle and will keep doing it for the profit they make on the ores. others mine more safe in highsec for alot less but also at a less hourly income. the orca bonus vs the rorq bonuses are imho making a huge difference (maxed skills n all)

If CCP did not add the minerals from highsec the prices would go up i guess. simple rule of demand and supply.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2011-10-11 14:59:51 UTC
mining is for pesants and slaves

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

pooper stain
Pyrrhic-Victory
#9 - 2011-10-11 20:23:05 UTC  |  Edited by: pooper stain
Weaselior wrote:
mining is for pesants and slaves


Cry

Yeah... Not a lot of love for the miners. Especially since CCP made null sec mining is THE highest risk thing to do in the game and it has such low isk/hour ratio.

miners get:
slow ships
low dps
maybe a light tank
agility of a boat anchor
cap ship that can't move for 5 mins at a time
Cap ship can't carry combat ships
poor fitting options

The hunters get:
local
DS
Probes
cloaked ships
bubbles
warp scrams/disruptors
nice tanks
nice dps
and hot drops

I guess I just want some reason to pursue the risk. CCP needs to remove high end minerals from loot drops. Give us a reason to risk and force the null sec dwellers to put forth some risk and have indy fleets.
BornToDieAnotherDay
Tarazed Technology
#10 - 2011-10-12 06:24:12 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:

on a space sim rpg like eve nothing should make more money than mining/manufacturing/trading.


Riiight, like the rice farmers, chinese factory workers and the retail assistants?

Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2011-10-12 08:36:55 UTC
Being a Forum Freedom Fighter should pay more than anything else tbh

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.

Usurpine
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2011-10-12 15:42:07 UTC
The problem with 0.0 mining for me is, ratting is so much more profitable that it cannot compete against mining even with abc ore. So why mining if you have the skills for ratting efficiently ?
pooper stain
Pyrrhic-Victory
#13 - 2011-10-12 17:13:01 UTC
Usurpine wrote:
The problem with 0.0 mining for me is, ratting is so much more profitable that it cannot compete against mining even with abc ore. So why mining if you have the skills for ratting efficiently ?



And there is the Rub.... The system encourages people NOT to mine or Bot.

Why implement ships and huge skill trees to mining If there really don't want people to mine?

Maybe CCP wants the miners to purchese multiple accounts so that players are forced to form solo mining fleets to stay in the black. I mean with so many free minerals coming from loot drops and drones, why not just remove mining altoghether.
It is obvious that the economy needs these supposed minerals from loot and drones or CCP would not have put them in. So Miners where not mining enough or CCP just wanted to keep the isk/hour low on purpose (prob the latter).

They would be better off just removing the ships and skills altogther (since there kinda useless as is) and implementing a stationary harvestor like moon mining, But I guess that would take away the gankers fun and free kills.
David Grogan
NerdHerd
#14 - 2011-10-14 18:06:59 UTC
lol why is it an general consensus that mining ships should be weak.

if i was a ship designer and builder in real life and i knew pirates were frequently harassing industrial ships i'd design a mining ship armed to the teeth and heavily tanked. i bet i'd sell lots more ships if they were like that.

one thing i liked about x3 terran conflict was freighters were actually quite hard to kill... they had huge tanks and could be armed to the teeth. It made it more challenging to kill or capture one. Even the mining ships could have a tough tank and decent weapons.

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.

Woo Glin
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2011-10-14 18:12:56 UTC
That's why I mine in a Rokh.
Woo Glin
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2011-10-14 18:13:06 UTC
:yarr: :twisted:
Dietrich VonMirat
Mirat Transtellar
#17 - 2011-10-14 18:29:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Dietrich VonMirat
pooper stain wrote:
Usurpine wrote:
The problem with 0.0 mining for me is, ratting is so much more profitable that it cannot compete against mining even with abc ore. So why mining if you have the skills for ratting efficiently ?



And there is the Rub.... The system encourages people NOT to mine or Bot.

Why implement ships and huge skill trees to mining If there really don't want people to mine?


That's silly. It's market economics.
If everyone stopped mining abc, the supply would drop, prices would rise, and people would do it again. The value of ore is dependent upon how many people are out there mining it.

If there's enough people mining that the value is too low for you, feel free to go do something else. The market will survive.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#18 - 2011-10-14 20:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
pooper stain wrote:
You mentioned Rorqual sitting at a POS? So now I have a ship with a Tractor beam bonus having to sit in a POS shield? So we have to use space for time and space for fueling, setup, and shutdown, just for 60mil isk and hour? I know ccp hates miners but wow!!
I own a Rorqual (on my second one actually).

When I first got a Rorqual, I thought I'd be out with the miners. Then I experienced how fast a small gang can destroy a carrier and dreadnought, and decided to keep the Rorqual within a forcefield.

The Rorqual has the offense of 1.5 Dominix (drones only), which really isn't much for a capital. It is also very weak to capacitor warfare, much more so than other capitals. At a minimum the Rorqual needs a much larger drone bay.

I've never used the capital tractor beam my alt trained for. Cry
JongBlood
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2011-10-15 02:54:59 UTC
Dietrich VonMirat wrote:
pooper stain wrote:
Usurpine wrote:
The problem with 0.0 mining for me is, ratting is so much more profitable that it cannot compete against mining even with abc ore. So why mining if you have the skills for ratting efficiently ?



And there is the Rub.... The system encourages people NOT to mine or Bot.

Why implement ships and huge skill trees to mining If there really don't want people to mine?


That's silly. It's market economics.
If everyone stopped mining abc, the supply would drop, prices would rise, and people would do it again. The value of ore is dependent upon how many people are out there mining it.

If there's enough people mining that the value is too low for you, feel free to go do something else. The market will survive.

Completely agree. Ore prices are low because everyone mines and it takes very little skill (player and toon) to shoot rocks. Saying this I have four accounts,two combat pilots, a maxed orc a pilot and a research/building pilot
Eddie Laydon
Laydon Industries
#20 - 2011-10-17 01:04:23 UTC
Shocked

if you're jumping to an unknown 0.0 system with 5 hulks in you bay you are doing it wrong... very very wrong.

rorqs are not designed to be ninja-miners, you need to make sure the system is relatively safe before you risk your multi billion $ ship.
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