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A possible solution to AFK cloaky alts

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Endeavour Starfleet
#201 - 2011-10-12 15:10:32 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
If you are active and watching said stuff that's fine but inactive means able to be found. That is the reason behind the suggestion. The entire POINT is to deny the ability to AFK to watch said activities.

If you don't want a probe to be able to "See" you how about this. The longer you stay on grid the more presence you build up. After a random amount the probe will be able to see you (And resulting in a decloak after some time later) If you keep moving I can see why it isnt needed for a probe to say there is a cloak in system. In nullsec local will provide that info anyway.
Why should I need to remain active? I do after all pay for my account, it's mine to play as I wish.

You've yet to give a valid reason as to why this is an issue. Not only that, but you want more power on top of the already overpowered local intel tool and that is not a balanced approach.


Same thing was said when CCP nerfed the hisec free ganks with the Concord buffs. Just because you pay for an account does not mean you deserve to be able to AFK cloak in a hostile system.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#202 - 2011-10-12 15:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
I never said my idea isn't a nerf. It is only a targeted nerf towards those who are Afking while cloaked which people are admitting they are doing even in wormhole (Removing the idea that removing local = removing AFK cloaking) If you are active I want to keep your activties the same as today as possible but the minute you walk away and don't log off I want the penalty to get worse resulting in your location decloaked and destroyed.

It doesn't just target the AFK, it also affects active players and you still keep your all powerful seeing eye. Not a balanced approach.

Also, you still fail to understand the reasons for AFK cloaking in null. Until you've grasped that simple concept, you're just blowing hot air.

Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Same thing was said when CCP nerfed the hisec free ganks with the Concord buffs. Just because you pay for an account does not mean you deserve to be able to AFK cloak in a hostile system.
The only similarity would be that local needs nerfing as it's way too overpowered atm. But it is going to be changed, so......

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Endeavour Starfleet
#203 - 2011-10-12 15:15:54 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:


Wow, lost my response. Here we go again... I can appreciate the thought you put into this concept, however it would greatly detract from wormhole life. Even simply being able to detect the presence of cloaked ships is a huge nerf on the whole wormhole culture and the danger inherent in the system. A big part of planning a system assault often revolves around having an unknown cloaked vessel in a target hole for days or weeks on end actively gathering intel. You may be logged on for hours sitting idly by watching a pos to determine hours of operation, active people in the hole, etc. The secrecy is key. Allowing your presence to be advertised via probe would also shift the whole paradigm such that it would become a near requirement for someone to keep these probes out constantly while any ops are going on, possibly even when they're not. This massive nerf (and it is massive, if you have any clue at all about wormhole life) is grossly unnecessary, unneeded and unwelcome.

Wormholes are the last frontiers of Eve. Anything that nerfs that needs to be fought tooth and nail.



If you are active and watching said stuff that's fine but inactive means able to be found. That is the reason behind the suggestion. The entire POINT is to deny the ability to AFK to watch said activities.

If you don't want a probe to be able to "See" you how about this. The longer you stay on grid the more presence you build up. After a random amount the probe will be able to see you (And resulting in a decloak after some time later) If you keep moving I can see why it isnt needed for a probe to say there is a cloak in system. In nullsec local will provide that info anyway.


How about no? Being long on the grid is a requirement of gathering good intel. You can sit there for hours, undetected, for days on end gathering what you need for a successful op. This isn't an exaggeration... we have someone this dedicated to making successful ops a reality.

Your idea unnecessarily nerfs wormholes. This is a flat out fact. There's neither need nor reason for this.


Well if you don't want it then ill go back to suggesting it will show the random spot at any time. I tried to adapt the plan.

If your friend was that dedicated he wont have an issue being at his computer for the days it is needed for an OP. Otherwise sorry but if your plan requires being able to AFK for hours days whenever it needs to be changed as much as the Hisec ganks did before CONCORD was buffed.

Just because you are in WH doesn't change the fact that it is AFK cloaking. Being able to cloak free AFK in a hostile nullsec system is also claimed as needed to set up various ops such as instapwn hotdrops. Nothing is different there.

It is time to fix this issue. My idea is the best but ill support many methods to remove any incentive to walk away from the computer while cloaked.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#204 - 2011-10-12 15:16:01 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
If you are active and watching said stuff that's fine but inactive means able to be found. That is the reason behind the suggestion. The entire POINT is to deny the ability to AFK to watch said activities.

If you don't want a probe to be able to "See" you how about this. The longer you stay on grid the more presence you build up. After a random amount the probe will be able to see you (And resulting in a decloak after some time later) If you keep moving I can see why it isnt needed for a probe to say there is a cloak in system. In nullsec local will provide that info anyway.
Why should I need to remain active? I do after all pay for my account, it's mine to play as I wish.

You've yet to give a valid reason as to why this is an issue. Not only that, but you want more power on top of the already overpowered local intel tool and that is not a balanced approach.


Same thing was said when CCP nerfed the hisec free ganks with the Concord buffs. Just because you pay for an account does not mean you deserve to be able to AFK cloak in a hostile system.


But he does deserve the ability to be passively cloaked in system, for hours on end if he so chooses. Intel gathering may require this.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Endeavour Starfleet
#205 - 2011-10-12 15:17:32 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
I never said my idea isn't a nerf. It is only a targeted nerf towards those who are Afking while cloaked which people are admitting they are doing even in wormhole (Removing the idea that removing local = removing AFK cloaking) If you are active I want to keep your activties the same as today as possible but the minute you walk away and don't log off I want the penalty to get worse resulting in your location decloaked and destroyed.

It doesn't just target the AFK, it also affects active players and you still keep your all powerful seeing eye. Not a balanced approach.

Also, you still fail to understand the reasons for AFK cloaking in null. Until you've grasped that simple concept, you're just blowing hot air.


Active players wont be decloaked without warning with my plan. They have time to go to safespot and come back generating a new random point to be uncloaked. It doesn't seriously affect them. It just removes the incentive to go AFK.
Selene Valkros
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#206 - 2011-10-12 15:18:50 UTC
*sigh* This topic again. Allright, here goes.

*puts on hip waders*

The consequences of any action are ultimately defined by the victim. If I punch someone and he has me arrested for assault, I can't use 'I just gave him a friendly tap' as a defense. The victim says I assaulted him, so therefore I assaulted him.

Apply this concept to 'AFK cloakers.'

In reality, there is no such thing as an AFK cloaker.

Don't believe me? Read on.

Someone is in space, with an 'AFK cloaker.' He fears being hot dropped/attacked/etc. He is the victim who must operate on two premises:

1) The person is not AFK and will therefore pounce at an inopportune moment, resulting in his death (no amount of friends will help him as there will always be someone bigger, more skilled, meaner, and have more friends than he does)

2) The person is AFK, but prudence demands that the victim, barring any other evidence, assume the cloaker is not AFK.

Therefore, any 'AFK cloaker' is by definition not AFK at all times.

The end result being there is no such think as an AFK cloaker from the viewpoint of the victim.

So now that that has been established, we should be discussing what can be done about cloakers, regardless of their AFKness? A change to cloak mechanics? D-scan/probe mechanics? Something else?
Endeavour Starfleet
#207 - 2011-10-12 15:20:19 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
If you are active and watching said stuff that's fine but inactive means able to be found. That is the reason behind the suggestion. The entire POINT is to deny the ability to AFK to watch said activities.

If you don't want a probe to be able to "See" you how about this. The longer you stay on grid the more presence you build up. After a random amount the probe will be able to see you (And resulting in a decloak after some time later) If you keep moving I can see why it isnt needed for a probe to say there is a cloak in system. In nullsec local will provide that info anyway.
Why should I need to remain active? I do after all pay for my account, it's mine to play as I wish.

You've yet to give a valid reason as to why this is an issue. Not only that, but you want more power on top of the already overpowered local intel tool and that is not a balanced approach.


Same thing was said when CCP nerfed the hisec free ganks with the Concord buffs. Just because you pay for an account does not mean you deserve to be able to AFK cloak in a hostile system.


But he does deserve the ability to be passively cloaked in system, for hours on end if he so chooses. Intel gathering may require this.


No intel gathering requires he be at his computer for hours doing what he needs to be doing. Not AFK, Not in the shower, Not at a lovely dinner, not watching Hulu on fullscreen. Otherwise if he chooses to go passive and AFK he will come under risk quickly.

I am targeting the inactive cloaker. Not trying to protect their free ganks.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#208 - 2011-10-12 15:20:33 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Mag's wrote:

It doesn't just target the AFK, it also affects active players and you still keep your all powerful seeing eye. Not a balanced approach.

Also, you still fail to understand the reasons for AFK cloaking in null. Until you've grasped that simple concept, you're just blowing hot air.


Active players wont be decloaked without warning with my plan. They have time to go to safespot and come back generating a new random point to be uncloaked. It doesn't seriously affect them. It just removes the incentive to go AFK.
But it affects them all the same and you still have your all seeing eye. Not balanced.

I have every right to go AFK, just because you rely on local and misread it's instant intel is not my fault., it's yours.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Endeavour Starfleet
#209 - 2011-10-12 15:22:16 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Mag's wrote:

It doesn't just target the AFK, it also affects active players and you still keep your all powerful seeing eye. Not a balanced approach.

Also, you still fail to understand the reasons for AFK cloaking in null. Until you've grasped that simple concept, you're just blowing hot air.


Active players wont be decloaked without warning with my plan. They have time to go to safespot and come back generating a new random point to be uncloaked. It doesn't seriously affect them. It just removes the incentive to go AFK.
But it affects them all the same and you still have your all seeing eye. Not balanced.

I have every right to go AFK, just because you rely on local and misread it's instant intel is not my fault., it's yours.


Go AFK but under my plan you will eventually be found and destroyed. That is the idea. You get to take a risk like everyone else.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#210 - 2011-10-12 15:22:47 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Well if you don't want it then ill go back to suggesting it will show the random spot at any time. I tried to adapt the plan.

If your friend was that dedicated he wont have an issue being at his computer for the days it is needed for an OP. Otherwise sorry but if your plan requires being able to AFK for hours days whenever it needs to be changed as much as the Hisec ganks did before CONCORD was buffed.

Just because you are in WH doesn't change the fact that it is AFK cloaking. Being able to cloak free AFK in a hostile nullsec system is also claimed as needed to set up various ops such as instapwn hotdrops. Nothing is different there.

It is time to fix this issue. My idea is the best but ill support many methods to remove any incentive to walk away from the computer while cloaked.


You can suggest until you're blue in the face; it's not going to be implemented.

You missed the point. He IS at his computer for those hours per day for the days needed. He's just not moving. There's no need to, and there's definitely no desire to. Park 100KM or so off a POS, crack open a cold one, turn on the TV and simply observe. AFK? No. Passively cloaked, definitely. Perfectly viable, definitely by design. You notice someone log on, take notes of who and when. What ships? What apparent activities. You watch, unmoving, unknown and unseen.

Your idea fails to compensate for this perfectly valid and acceptible method of gathering intel. You nerf it unnecessarily because, let's face it, you're afraid. You see some unknown in local and clench up, afraid to undock. You have the means to counter, but you choose not to. You choose to remain docked.

And complain about it.

You have failed Eve.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Signal11th
#211 - 2011-10-12 15:24:42 UTC
Apart from the anon respawn issue still no one has given this thread one good reason why it needs to be looked at?

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Mag's
Azn Empire
#212 - 2011-10-12 15:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:


Go AFK but under my plan you will eventually be found and destroyed. That is the idea. You get to take a risk like everyone else.
Still not balanced and you've yet to give a reason why I shouldn't go AFK.

For a balanced approach, you need to include the removal of local and the package of changes that replaces it.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Lharanai
Fools of the Blue Oyster
#213 - 2011-10-12 15:41:28 UTC
Funny, if you are a highsec dweller and complaining about "unfair" (I prefer the term biased) wardec mechanisms, you are called several things in the forums, but the most common answer is grow some balls, get some friends and go to null sec. Now that I have seen nullsec I am quite sure that most of the real carebears are there, as by my own definition carebear = somebody who do not risk anything.

Therefore I just quote their answers: EVE is not safe, nowhere and never.

P.S. and being in a WH makes you seriously paranoid :)

Seriously, don't take me serious, I MEAN IT...seriously
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#214 - 2011-10-12 15:41:30 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Apart from the anon respawn issue still no one has given this thread one good reason why it needs to be looked at?
Of course not, for the simple reason that AFK cloaking is not an issue. Not even with anoms is it an issue - that is a provlem with the despawn mechanics.

None of the supposed problems with AFK cloaking has anything to do with people being AFK, and hardöy any of them have to do with people being cloaked.
Jack bubu
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#215 - 2011-10-12 15:48:28 UTC
Remove local and you dont have to fear the afk cloaker anymore :)
James Biggles
State War Academy
Caldari State
#216 - 2011-10-12 15:54:15 UTC
just do like any other MMO has done over the years, if a person is inactive for more than 30 mins, kick him to caracter select.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#217 - 2011-10-12 15:59:26 UTC
James Biggles wrote:
just do like any other MMO has done over the years, if a person is inactive for more than 30 mins, kick him to caracter select.


Define "inactive". If I'm cloaked off an enemy pos in a wormhole gathering intel, simply sitting there and watching, periodically taking notes regarding names, times and ships of enemy personnel logging on and off, am I inactive? None of this action requires any keystrokes once I'm in position.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Naradius
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#218 - 2011-10-12 16:18:36 UTC
Sniped117 wrote:
A possible solution to AFK cloaky alts


Ignore them....they are AFK! Roll

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams
Kitty McKitty
In Praise Of Shadows
#219 - 2011-10-12 16:49:52 UTC
Rhinanna wrote:
Kitty McKitty wrote:
Problem: Me and my buddies are unwilling to defend our operations in lawless space because it impedes on our profit margins.

Solution: Nerf some other doods.


Way to misquote! Well done for trying to build a strawman.

The problem isn't that it makes it less profitable or hits profit margins, the problem is that it makes null LESS profitable than hi-sec. Do you really think that is right?

The secondary problem is that it gives a very cheap and risk-free way of seriously fecking up your enemy's economics. This heavily breaks the risk vs reward that EvE is based around. More risk = More reward, except in the case of AFK cloaking.

Now please try addressing the real problems and see if you can come up with an actual answer.







You dont mine in null sec for PROFIT, you mine there for resources, and it's more convenient than relying on logistics to bring in resources from high sec. If you are unable to deal with a few enemy ships in system and cannot go next door or otherwise deal with the problem then you need to start bringing in resources from elsewhere. You may not like this but its the truth.

♥ Haviing your portrait painted here helps INTAKI Disabled Children ♥
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#220 - 2011-10-12 16:56:42 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
I never said my idea isn't a nerf. It is only a targeted nerf towards those who are Afking while cloaked which people are admitting they are doing even in wormhole (Removing the idea that removing local = removing AFK cloaking) If you are active I want to keep your activties the same as today as possible but the minute you walk away and don't log off I want the penalty to get worse resulting in your location decloaked and destroyed.

It doesn't just target the AFK, it also affects active players and you still keep your all powerful seeing eye. Not a balanced approach.

Also, you still fail to understand the reasons for AFK cloaking in null. Until you've grasped that simple concept, you're just blowing hot air.


Active players wont be decloaked without warning with my plan. They have time to go to safespot and come back generating a new random point to be uncloaked. It doesn't seriously affect them. It just removes the incentive to go AFK.


It does when the enemy has bubbles all over the place dragging you into them meaning that trap you have been trying to set cannot happen because you cannot stay in position.