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A possible solution to AFK cloaky alts

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Endeavour Starfleet
#181 - 2011-10-12 14:36:12 UTC
dethleffs wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:

I don't care if wormhole folks do not want to discuss ways to fix the issue. If they want to live with you going out to dinner with the folks and coming back to a free gank because you cant be found no matter if you are known or not. Well that is their buisness. I am targeting AFK cloaking and if that benefits WH users. So be it.


wow... this discussion is becoming very very pointless. you just want an easy time ratting in 0.0, without fear and risk. Maybe you want a handy readout of the neut in local of his weaponsystems too, and maybe the fleetcomp of the to-be-hotdropped enemy fleet? sheesh.



No I just want local to stay as it is (Or replaced with something of equal use) and to be able to decloak those who are cloaked in system and away from their keyboards.

If an active cloaker is dedicated enough he can have the effect he wants without being able to get it for free. I am just targeting AFK cloaking with my suggestion.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#182 - 2011-10-12 14:37:05 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:

Let's try posting it again, since you seem to have missed relatively important parts...

1. When a ship cloaks, it disappears from local. You can't see it anymore, you have nothing to be afraid of, right?

2. When a ship cloaks, it also loses access to local. You lose the free intel of being able to sit there while cloaked at a safe seeing who's in system or not. You want more intel? Simply... use probes, use dscan, fly your lazy ass around and see who's where. In addition. when cloaked you can no longer be "warped to".

3. When you decloak, there should be a delay in being able to fire off a cyno. This balances the "invisible in local" thing, giving the poor bastard you're surprising at least a fighting chance to soil himself and run away.



That would affect active cloaking! I want to target just the inactive cloakers. An active cloaker ought to be able to keep active and watch for prey to do somthing stupid and hotdrop on them. Being active at the computer ought to be rewarded with good kills not nerfed to hell and back to fix AFK cloaking.

My solution removes the incentive to be away from the keyboard while cloaked. That is what I am targeting with my suggestion.


And by the way... you negatively affect actively cloaked people by forcing them into more action when often the only action warranted is to simply sit, and watch. Your argument also fails on this point. You can't affect one (actively participating) without affecting the other (being afk while cloaked). Therefore, consider the issue as a whole and how changes will affect the entirety of the game, not just your one perspective.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Rico Rage
#183 - 2011-10-12 14:37:32 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Ingvar, My suggestion will not seriously affect active cloakers. If you are actively cloaked in a wormhole you will receive warning and are able to warp off to change the random point and prevent the decloak for say 10-15 mins to be fair?

What would affect you is CCP saying "Lets just fix this now" and swinging some massive cloak nerf bat. We dont want that


But this affects active cloakers greatly in wormholes! You screw things up like this with your "massive cloak nerf bat". The problem regarding this auto-decloak in holes is that you take away the ambush. You can connect to a static, scan down the sites that need scanning, warp to one cloaked and simply wait. (Yes, you learn patience in the hole.) You may have to wait hours for the ambush to spring, it may never happen. However, being forced to warp all over the place while you're trying to wait is simply foolish and a poorly thought out response to a non-issue. Keep in mind, in a hole you may choose to afk at the ambush point for those hours, flipping over to an alt for example and doing other activities while you wait. You may want to take a bio, get some lunch, run to the store, then come back and see if the prey is in the trap. It could be hours, it could be minutes, it could be never. But, the fact remains that you're ill-though concept would destroy a perfectly viable and acceptible paradigm of wormhole existance, nerfing the inherent dangers in the systems.


No need to warp all over the place. Should a method like the one I suggested be implemented (probes to detect cloakies) you would simply have to be on your feet about as much, or less (depending on actual numbers for how long these probes would take to scan down a cloaky using these new probes) than another person in wormhole space.

Simply put, a cloaky sitting in a WH would have to hit dscan periodically to see if "cloaky detection space probes (tm)" show up on it. If they show up, then you know they're looking for cloakies and you can warp away "all over the place". There's absolutely no reason a cloaky should be able to sit in a hole without any risk like any other ships in there, to ask to keep such a mechanic is carebearish because it implies you are unwilling to put yourself at risk in order to get your kills.

Make them have to fit an expanded launcher to use these probes for all I care, or even make them use some new launcher that gimps people to oblivion. Doesn't matter to me, so long as people have the ability to kill off people sitting AFK in systems. If you're at your keyboard actively seeking prey, excellent, I want you to stay undetectable, but if you're off to the store, watching videos online, or otherwise not actively engaged in-game, I want the option to find you and kill you.

Endeavour Starfleet
#184 - 2011-10-12 14:37:44 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
BY THE WAY

You guys here know that local as we know it is going to be removed, right!?


IF that happens it will be replaced with somthing of equal use. Anything otherwise would wreck nullsec and CCP knows it.

Having free ganks each and every day is a fantasy. If somehow it happened you would have them for a few months before people leave Nullsec and EVE in droves now can we focus on the topic please?


Won't be of equal use. At least not everywhere.

CCP has hinted that they want to replace local with something similar only for sov upgraded systems so that the defenders have an advantage. Everywhere else is fair game.


Ya I highly doubt that will happen. I and many others have stated that nerfing local = leaving the game. So can we focus on the topic please?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#185 - 2011-10-12 14:38:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
No I just want local to stay as it is
Not going to happen. It's far too powerful and far too cheap, and it is already slated for removal.
Quote:
and to be able to decloak those who are cloaked in system and away from their keyboards.
Why?
Quote:
I am just targeting AFK cloaking with my suggestion.
So why are you so against the simple fix that will remove them?
Quote:
So can we focus on the topic please?
AFK cloaking wouldn't exist without local, so it is very much a part of the topic.
Endeavour Starfleet
#186 - 2011-10-12 14:42:18 UTC
Rico Rage wrote:


No need to warp all over the place. Should a method like the one I suggested be implemented (probes to detect cloakies) you would simply have to be on your feet about as much, or less (depending on actual numbers for how long these probes would take to scan down a cloaky using these new probes) than another person in wormhole space.

Simply put, a cloaky sitting in a WH would have to hit dscan periodically to see if "cloaky detection space probes (tm)" show up on it. If they show up, then you know they're looking for cloakies and you can warp away "all over the place". There's absolutely no reason a cloaky should be able to sit in a hole without any risk like any other ships in there, to ask to keep such a mechanic is carebearish because it implies you are unwilling to put yourself at risk in order to get your kills.

Make them have to fit an expanded launcher to use these probes for all I care, or even make them use some new launcher that gimps people to oblivion. Doesn't matter to me, so long as people have the ability to kill off people sitting AFK in systems. If you're at your keyboard actively seeking prey, excellent, I want you to stay undetectable, but if you're off to the store, watching videos online, or otherwise not actively engaged in-game, I want the option to find you and kill you.




That sounds similar to my idea. Tho with my idea I think it is fair that instead of Dscan they get a warning that they are about to be decloaked in 15-30 seconds. That gives them time to warp off to a safespot and come back. Maybe even the warning will start if someone gets 50 percent for instance so that the cloaker has time to warp before the timer runs out so his ship type cant be revealed for the active cloaker.

That is right I am trying my best to target ONLY the inactive AFK cloaker and leave the advantages of active cloakers alone.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#187 - 2011-10-12 14:44:35 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
BY THE WAY

You guys here know that local as we know it is going to be removed, right!?


IF that happens it will be replaced with somthing of equal use. Anything otherwise would wreck nullsec and CCP knows it.

Having free ganks each and every day is a fantasy. If somehow it happened you would have them for a few months before people leave Nullsec and EVE in droves now can we focus on the topic please?


Won't be of equal use. At least not everywhere.

CCP has hinted that they want to replace local with something similar only for sov upgraded systems so that the defenders have an advantage. Everywhere else is fair game.


Ya I highly doubt that will happen. I and many others have stated that nerfing local = leaving the game. So can we focus on the topic please?


Same kind of people said they would leave the game if CCP even thought about nerfing supers. They are still here.

If you really mean it, then leave. They are going forward with it.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#188 - 2011-10-12 14:44:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ingvar Angst
Rico Rage wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Ingvar, My suggestion will not seriously affect active cloakers. If you are actively cloaked in a wormhole you will receive warning and are able to warp off to change the random point and prevent the decloak for say 10-15 mins to be fair?

What would affect you is CCP saying "Lets just fix this now" and swinging some massive cloak nerf bat. We dont want that


But this affects active cloakers greatly in wormholes! You screw things up like this with your "massive cloak nerf bat". The problem regarding this auto-decloak in holes is that you take away the ambush. You can connect to a static, scan down the sites that need scanning, warp to one cloaked and simply wait. (Yes, you learn patience in the hole.) You may have to wait hours for the ambush to spring, it may never happen. However, being forced to warp all over the place while you're trying to wait is simply foolish and a poorly thought out response to a non-issue. Keep in mind, in a hole you may choose to afk at the ambush point for those hours, flipping over to an alt for example and doing other activities while you wait. You may want to take a bio, get some lunch, run to the store, then come back and see if the prey is in the trap. It could be hours, it could be minutes, it could be never. But, the fact remains that you're ill-though concept would destroy a perfectly viable and acceptible paradigm of wormhole existance, nerfing the inherent dangers in the systems.


No need to warp all over the place. Should a method like the one I suggested be implemented (probes to detect cloakies) you would simply have to be on your feet about as much, or less (depending on actual numbers for how long these probes would take to scan down a cloaky using these new probes) than another person in wormhole space.

Simply put, a cloaky sitting in a WH would have to hit dscan periodically to see if "cloaky detection space probes (tm)" show up on it. If they show up, then you know they're looking for cloakies and you can warp away "all over the place". There's absolutely no reason a cloaky should be able to sit in a hole without any risk like any other ships in there, to ask to keep such a mechanic is carebearish because it implies you are unwilling to put yourself at risk in order to get your kills.

Make them have to fit an expanded launcher to use these probes for all I care, or even make them use some new launcher that gimps people to oblivion. Doesn't matter to me, so long as people have the ability to kill off people sitting AFK in systems. If you're at your keyboard actively seeking prey, excellent, I want you to stay undetectable, but if you're off to the store, watching videos online, or otherwise not actively engaged in-game, I want the option to find you and kill you.


Wow, lost my response. Here we go again... I can appreciate the thought you put into this concept, however it would greatly detract from wormhole life. Even simply being able to detect the presence of cloaked ships is a huge nerf on the whole wormhole culture and the danger inherent in the system. A big part of planning a system assault often revolves around having an unknown cloaked vessel in a target hole for days or weeks on end actively gathering intel. You may be logged on for hours sitting idly by watching a pos to determine hours of operation, active people in the hole, etc. The secrecy is key. Allowing your presence to be advertised via probe would also shift the whole paradigm such that it would become a near requirement for someone to keep these probes out constantly while any ops are going on, possibly even when they're not. This massive nerf (and it is massive, if you have any clue at all about wormhole life) is grossly unnecessary, unneeded and unwelcome.

Wormholes are the last frontiers of Eve. Anything that nerfs that needs to be fought tooth and nail.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#189 - 2011-10-12 14:49:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Ya I highly doubt that will happen. I and many others have stated that nerfing local = leaving the game. So can we focus on the topic please?
I'm not sure what rock you've been hiding under, but it's being changed.

But as to the topic, remove local and you remove the reason to AFK cloak. Sure we need a replacement and not just a simple removal. But you need to work for your intel and not get it handed to you on a plate.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Endeavour Starfleet
#190 - 2011-10-12 14:53:23 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
BY THE WAY

You guys here know that local as we know it is going to be removed, right!?


IF that happens it will be replaced with somthing of equal use. Anything otherwise would wreck nullsec and CCP knows it.

Having free ganks each and every day is a fantasy. If somehow it happened you would have them for a few months before people leave Nullsec and EVE in droves now can we focus on the topic please?


Won't be of equal use. At least not everywhere.

CCP has hinted that they want to replace local with something similar only for sov upgraded systems so that the defenders have an advantage. Everywhere else is fair game.


Ya I highly doubt that will happen. I and many others have stated that nerfing local = leaving the game. So can we focus on the topic please?


Same kind of people said they would leave the game if CCP even thought about nerfing supers. They are still here.

If you really mean it, then leave. They are going forward with it.


CCP is listening to its customers now. If they had ever even thought of it. They will listen now and not go forward with it just to give you free ganks. If somehow they did tho I will take no action until it is on an official feature list or confirmed for TQ. I don't insta quit on rumors.

And hopefully they will listen to this and fix AFK cloaking without swinging the nerf bat like crazy. My idea (Or some variation) will do this.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#191 - 2011-10-12 14:53:59 UTC
Solution to OP's "problem":

Re-program your bots to ignore cloakies.

Ni.
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#192 - 2011-10-12 14:55:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Karim alRashid
Or just quit, apparently this game is not for you.

PS. I cringe everytime I read "free ganks" .. d'oh ..

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
Imaginary Girlfriend
Exploit Inc.
#193 - 2011-10-12 14:55:56 UTC
10 pages....over a complete non issue

A player sitting in a system cloaked is all within the mechanics of the game, so you are saying you want the game changed to benefit only you. Learn to counter your enemies actions. Adapt and Overcome, otherwise go back to high sec to carebear.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#194 - 2011-10-12 15:00:03 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:

CCP is listening to its customers now. If they had ever even thought of it. They will listen now and not go forward with it just to give you free ganks. If somehow they did tho I will take no action until it is on an official feature list or confirmed for TQ. I don't insta quit on rumors.

And hopefully they will listen to this and fix AFK cloaking without swinging the nerf bat like crazy. My idea (Or some variation) will do this.


You simply refuse to acknowledge how significant of a nerf your idea is outside of your own little paradigm. At least my method balances cloaks, removes the surprise hotdrop you never saw coming and prevents "afk cloakers" from ever being an issue again, while addressing the free, unearned intel while cloaked thing by making cloaked vessels have to actively gather intel.

Your idea is nothing but a nerf. Nothing in enhanced. Only you (and rat-bots) benefit, not Eve as a whole, and many others feel the pain so you can live a little safer in the place that, by definition, you're not supposed to live a little safer.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Endeavour Starfleet
#195 - 2011-10-12 15:01:15 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:


Wow, lost my response. Here we go again... I can appreciate the thought you put into this concept, however it would greatly detract from wormhole life. Even simply being able to detect the presence of cloaked ships is a huge nerf on the whole wormhole culture and the danger inherent in the system. A big part of planning a system assault often revolves around having an unknown cloaked vessel in a target hole for days or weeks on end actively gathering intel. You may be logged on for hours sitting idly by watching a pos to determine hours of operation, active people in the hole, etc. The secrecy is key. Allowing your presence to be advertised via probe would also shift the whole paradigm such that it would become a near requirement for someone to keep these probes out constantly while any ops are going on, possibly even when they're not. This massive nerf (and it is massive, if you have any clue at all about wormhole life) is grossly unnecessary, unneeded and unwelcome.

Wormholes are the last frontiers of Eve. Anything that nerfs that needs to be fought tooth and nail.



If you are active and watching said stuff that's fine but inactive means able to be found. That is the reason behind the suggestion. The entire POINT is to deny the ability to AFK to watch said activities.

If you don't want a probe to be able to "See" you how about this. The longer you stay on grid the more presence you build up. After a random amount the probe will be able to see you (And resulting in a decloak after some time later) If you keep moving I can see why it isnt needed for a probe to say there is a cloak in system. In nullsec local will provide that info anyway.
EMPER0R 0VERLORD
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#196 - 2011-10-12 15:04:19 UTC
If you get repeatedly owned by cloaked alts sitting in system you are pretty terrible at eve. Here is a quick guide to ganking them:

If you notice a cloaky alt in system the first thing you should do is go to one of the public killboards that have just about every kill posted on them.

Search for the player cloaked in system. This will show you all the kills that char has been involved in.

Look at the time stamps on kills, generally they will be during the same time of day because unlike pve in eve there are not bots for pvp. So there is actually a person that has to go to sleep and probably work and stuff like that, so for most people they are active in eve during the same time every day.

This will tell you approximately when to be expecting them to be active and looking for a gank.

So with this information you can ask some of your alliance mates to be ready in pvp ships for a couple of hours and have a ship start ratting to bait them.

They tackle you and bring in a gang you counter that with your own gang and kill them. Chances are after getting ganked by you they will try to find other dumber people to gank.

Also look at who is on the killmails of the ganks the cloaker has. Add them to your address book and if a bunch fo them are online, its a pretty good indicator they are actively looking for a gank.
Endeavour Starfleet
#197 - 2011-10-12 15:05:07 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:

CCP is listening to its customers now. If they had ever even thought of it. They will listen now and not go forward with it just to give you free ganks. If somehow they did tho I will take no action until it is on an official feature list or confirmed for TQ. I don't insta quit on rumors.

And hopefully they will listen to this and fix AFK cloaking without swinging the nerf bat like crazy. My idea (Or some variation) will do this.


You simply refuse to acknowledge how significant of a nerf your idea is outside of your own little paradigm. At least my method balances cloaks, removes the surprise hotdrop you never saw coming and prevents "afk cloakers" from ever being an issue again, while addressing the free, unearned intel while cloaked thing by making cloaked vessels have to actively gather intel.

Your idea is nothing but a nerf. Nothing in enhanced. Only you (and rat-bots) benefit, not Eve as a whole, and many others feel the pain so you can live a little safer in the place that, by definition, you're not supposed to live a little safer.


I never said my idea isn't a nerf. It is only a targeted nerf towards those who are Afking while cloaked which people are admitting they are doing even in wormhole (Removing the idea that removing local = removing AFK cloaking) If you are active I want to keep your activties the same as today as possible but the minute you walk away and don't log off I want the penalty to get worse resulting in your location decloaked and destroyed.
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#198 - 2011-10-12 15:06:44 UTC
Oooh, but this requires soooo much brains and :effort: ... Twisted

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
Mag's
Azn Empire
#199 - 2011-10-12 15:07:57 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
If you are active and watching said stuff that's fine but inactive means able to be found. That is the reason behind the suggestion. The entire POINT is to deny the ability to AFK to watch said activities.

If you don't want a probe to be able to "See" you how about this. The longer you stay on grid the more presence you build up. After a random amount the probe will be able to see you (And resulting in a decloak after some time later) If you keep moving I can see why it isnt needed for a probe to say there is a cloak in system. In nullsec local will provide that info anyway.
Why should I need to remain active? I do after all pay for my account, it's mine to play as I wish.

You've yet to give a valid reason as to why this is an issue. Not only that, but you want more power on top of the already overpowered local intel tool and that is not a balanced approach.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#200 - 2011-10-12 15:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ingvar Angst
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:


Wow, lost my response. Here we go again... I can appreciate the thought you put into this concept, however it would greatly detract from wormhole life. Even simply being able to detect the presence of cloaked ships is a huge nerf on the whole wormhole culture and the danger inherent in the system. A big part of planning a system assault often revolves around having an unknown cloaked vessel in a target hole for days or weeks on end actively gathering intel. You may be logged on for hours sitting idly by watching a pos to determine hours of operation, active people in the hole, etc. The secrecy is key. Allowing your presence to be advertised via probe would also shift the whole paradigm such that it would become a near requirement for someone to keep these probes out constantly while any ops are going on, possibly even when they're not. This massive nerf (and it is massive, if you have any clue at all about wormhole life) is grossly unnecessary, unneeded and unwelcome.

Wormholes are the last frontiers of Eve. Anything that nerfs that needs to be fought tooth and nail.



If you are active and watching said stuff that's fine but inactive means able to be found. That is the reason behind the suggestion. The entire POINT is to deny the ability to AFK to watch said activities.

If you don't want a probe to be able to "See" you how about this. The longer you stay on grid the more presence you build up. After a random amount the probe will be able to see you (And resulting in a decloak after some time later) If you keep moving I can see why it isnt needed for a probe to say there is a cloak in system. In nullsec local will provide that info anyway.


How about no? Being long on the grid is a requirement of gathering good intel. You can sit there for hours, undetected, for days on end gathering what you need for a successful op. This isn't an exaggeration... we have someone this dedicated to making successful ops a reality.

Your idea unnecessarily nerfs wormholes. This is a flat out fact. There's neither need nor reason for this.


Wait a minute... how the hell are people afk watching anything?! Shocked

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.