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New dev blog: Ship Balancing: Mining Barges

First post
Author
Mos7Wan7ed
Hardcore Industries
#381 - 2012-08-09 00:53:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mos7Wan7ed
Uthgaard wrote:
One needs to consider the point at which a change goes from tuning and balance, and crosses over into the realm of different design. The amount of tank on a barge has typically been an irrelevant factor in the decision to steal a ship's ore. In particular this is less of a factor when the ship is no longer capable of holding more than a single cycle. Simply put, no one attacks a barge for isk.
While the decision to reduce the tank available on certain ships may have been made with certain intended results, the consequences of that decision have not been carefully evaluated. Barges are now being suicide ganked in high sec for no purpose other than their destruction, since the cost of doing so has been reduced to the point of triviality.
As I said initially, this becomes a design change when the allure of mining in high sec (low, steady, relatively low risk income) is altered to the extent that an individual who had invested in the skills to pursue that goal based on those factors will regret that decision, and newcomers with that goal in mind would not choose to mine.
There is never any shortage of trolls who prefer to prance around ivory towers with holier-than-thou mocking tones, telling individuals the idealistic 'shoulds'. They should expect this, they should do that.
However fine these statements sound while being trumpeted out of the ivory towers, they are limited to theory. In practice, this will lead to the abandonment of mining as a profession by many who were hit by the unforeseen consequences of the balancing (that was an effective role redesign); the lack several demographics of new miners entering the mining profession.
Ultimately this will have a butterfly effect and result in a dramatic increase in ore prices, and the cancellation of accounts of those who are now skeptical of investing considerable time and money into future goals in EVE.


The Covetor yield has doubled and the cost to replace the loss compared to the income increase is what makes getting ganked truly trivial. If that is too much then drop down to a retriever where the cost of replacement is many times less but the drop in yield is only minor.

Just remember, any tom **** and harry can build those barges with very little skill, some bpc's, and a few million isk in zydrine and megacyte bought off the market. If you build replacement ships for yourself then the replacement cost drops from 24 million down to next to nothing where the insurance payout can probably pay for the high end minerals that you can't mine yourself. They almost replace themselves.
Uthgaard
Because ISK
#382 - 2012-08-09 00:57:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Uthgaard
Perhaps you noticed the mention of ivory towers. Thank you for illustrating my point flawlessly. Attempt to stop bleating your 'shoulds' long enough to consider the difference between the intent and the impact.

One would not expect to take down an obelisk in a single velator in high sec. Nor should hulks and other barges be at that same level of relative risk.
Chaos Transcension
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#383 - 2012-08-09 01:12:37 UTC
It takes me over 2000m3 currently to comfortably hold a batch of every t2 crystal, 250m3 at half-batch with only 4 crystals and now I have to rely on somebody else to hold for me? Meaning now they gotta bump their big ass rorqual or orca up between me and the speckles of ore in the hidden belts to give me different crystals? I could not see many capital indy pilots bumping their ships up in a belt to trade crystals with 10-30 pilots. That is why they have a tractor beam that goes 80km instead.

So I guess as I see it, you are encouraging everyone to mine smaller amounts, afk longer, and know they can survive a small gank attempt with a passive tank? at least hi-sec miners can go back to afk-mining in their tanks! Yay! You're bringing back the botters almost!

And in the end, at least something is done for the most shafted backbone of EVE Online.

Now alls we need is a new hidden belt to spawn up in 0.0 systems that are sov level 4 or 5 that are slam packed with dense veldspar and Massive Scordite as far as the eye can load.

AAAAaaaaand as long as my hulks can tank about the same hits from npc spawns, I'll be happy, I don't want to warp my guys out just cause one or two rats aggros them.
Mos7Wan7ed
Hardcore Industries
#384 - 2012-08-09 01:15:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mos7Wan7ed
Uthgaard wrote:
Perhaps you noticed the mention of ivory towers. Thank you for illustrating my point flawlessly. Attempt to stop bleating your 'shoulds' long enough to consider the difference between the intent and the impact.

One would not expect to take down an obelisk in a single velator in high sec. Nor should hulks and other barges be at that same level of relative risk.


Barges are Tech 1 cruise class ship hulls and at that level they have EHP similar to other ships in that size and Tech level. They should be easy to gank.

Tech 2 hulls normally have more default ehp, higher resistances, more fitting slots for tank, and more fitting resources (CPU \ Powergrid \ Capacitor).
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#385 - 2012-08-09 01:33:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Idris Helion
Chaos Transcension wrote:
It takes me over 2000m3 currently to comfortably hold a batch of every t2 crystal, 250m3 at half-batch with only 4 crystals and now I have to rely on somebody else to hold for me? Meaning now they gotta bump their big ass rorqual or orca up between me and the speckles of ore in the hidden belts to give me different crystals? I could not see many capital indy pilots bumping their ships up in a belt to trade crystals with 10-30 pilots. That is why they have a tractor beam that goes 80km instead.

So I guess as I see it, you are encouraging everyone to mine smaller amounts, afk longer, and know they can survive a small gank attempt with a passive tank? at least hi-sec miners can go back to afk-mining in their tanks! Yay! You're bringing back the botters almost!

And in the end, at least something is done for the most shafted backbone of EVE Online.

Now alls we need is a new hidden belt to spawn up in 0.0 systems that are sov level 4 or 5 that are slam packed with dense veldspar and Massive Scordite as far as the eye can load.

AAAAaaaaand as long as my hulks can tank about the same hits from npc spawns, I'll be happy, I don't want to warp my guys out just cause one or two rats aggros them.


Holy Christ, the whining.

You know what you get to replace your cargo-maxed tissue-paper Hulk that could be ganked by a rookie frig?

You get a Retriever that can hold an entire jetcan full of ore, has a big enough cargo bay to carry two full sets of T2 crystals for every hisec ore you'd probably ever encounter, get yield within shouting distance of a Hulk (with 3 MLU's in the lows), and do it all for 20 million ISK or so. (EDIT: You also get a respectable amount of EHP.) Or you can spend more on a Mackinaw, and gain a pimpmobile hisec mining machine.

And yet you're complaining.
Zeruma
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#386 - 2012-08-09 01:44:21 UTC
I really love the new retriever/mack, its stupid easy to mine forever now
Sigras
Conglomo
#387 - 2012-08-09 03:08:36 UTC
Uthgaard wrote:
One needs to consider the point at which a change goes from tuning and balance, and crosses over into the realm of different design. The amount of tank on a barge has typically been an irrelevant factor in the decision to steal a ship's ore. In particular this is less of a factor when the ship is no longer capable of holding more than a single cycle. Simply put, no one attacks a barge for isk.
While the decision to reduce the tank available on certain ships may have been made with certain intended results, the consequences of that decision have not been carefully evaluated. Barges are now being suicide ganked in high sec for no purpose other than their destruction, since the cost of doing so has been reduced to the point of triviality.
As I said initially, this becomes a design change when the allure of mining in high sec (low, steady, relatively low risk income) is altered to the extent that an individual who had invested in the skills to pursue that goal based on those factors will regret that decision, and newcomers with that goal in mind would not choose to mine.
There is never any shortage of trolls who prefer to prance around ivory towers with holier-than-thou mocking tones, telling individuals the idealistic 'shoulds'. They should expect this, they should do that.
However fine these statements sound while being trumpeted out of the ivory towers, they are limited to theory. In practice, this will lead to the abandonment of mining as a profession by many who were hit by the unforeseen consequences of the balancing (that was an effective role redesign); and the lack of new miners entering the mining profession.
Ultimately this will have a butterfly effect and result in a dramatic increase in ore prices, and the cancellation of accounts of those who are now skeptical of investing considerable time and money into future goals in EVE.

While an interesting point of view, you're acting as though the hulk is the only mining barge and there are no alternatives.

Im not going to tell you what you should do, but einstein defined insanity as trying the same thing over and over again expecting different results
Tao Shaile
Grollwerk
#388 - 2012-08-09 04:54:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tao Shaile
I don't like the changes at all.

I thought there where too much mining barges already in game with different approaches to use them
(3 beginner barges, Highsec mining (Hulk), Ice mining (Mac), deep space mining (Skiff))

Now soon we get some more mining barges.CCP I think is working on them. I have no idea there will be 1, 2 or 3 different models and I have no idea they have other or smilar mining roles we already got with the existing barges. I am afraid this will not be the case but it just adds to the mining barge mess.

Instead I would have liked to see:

Mining barge 1, mining barge 2, mining barge 3

#1 is for beginners
#2 is for advanced miners basicaly for highsec mining ops (ore)
#3 is maybe one of the new barges for Highsec mining, team, ore & ice mining alike, 0sec, deep space mining

#? One of the new mining barges to come could even be a modular ship type like our T3's. Just make one mining barge and use different modules to let pilots put them together for whatever reason they want to use them. Result: One barge only!

With this solution and as far I care you could get the Procurer, Skiff, Retriever and maybe even the Hulk to the junk yard - or even all of the already existing barges - just give us 3 new barges with one of the next updates!

[rant on] I was playing for a long time and did quit my subscription. I want to see NEW stuff in the game to get back! It gets boring after 2 or 3 years! [rant off]


Orca and Rorqual Support:

Orca and Rorqual should both get a boost for team mining ops (cargo, speed) and Rorqual should be allowed in Highsec

I am afraid as far the options are now with the new rebalancing of the barges it will not get my main character back to the game as a subscriber.

Not yet.

Keep trying CCP, it´s looking good afterall!

We Step On Puppies

Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#389 - 2012-08-09 05:15:56 UTC
Artemus Dak wrote:
Regarding the mining barge changes The millions of isk spent on "cargo optimization rigs" are now useless.

Yeah, too bad. Fortunately for me, I actually put shield rigs on my pre-Inferno mining barges and now get even more benefit from them. :)
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#390 - 2012-08-09 05:42:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sizeof Void
I quickly refit a Procurer today and managed to get it to just over 60K HP (according to the in-game fitting window), with a balanced resist profile, cap stable, and without using ASBs (or cap boosters). I used T1 shield rigs and T2 modules - no faction, deadspace, nor officer junk. Not too shabby of a tank, eh? Esp. considering that I opted to leave a survey scanner in the mids.

With regards to productivity, the single ship-bonused Strip Miner I does a bit more than 2,400 m3 (no, I don't have perfect mining skills, implants, nor fleet bonuses), and the ore bay holds 12,000 m3.

Keep in mind, this is the T1 mining barge, not the T2 exhumer. And, formerly, the most useless ship in the game.

Still gankable? Possibly, but certainly not worth losing a Tornado. T1 mining barges don't drop Intact Armor Plates.
Sigras
Conglomo
#391 - 2012-08-09 07:17:19 UTC
Tao Shaile wrote:
I don't like the changes at all.

I thought there where too much mining barges already in game with different approaches to use them
(3 beginner barges, Highsec mining (Hulk), Ice mining (Mac), deep space mining (Skiff))

Now soon we get some more mining barges.CCP I think is working on them. I have no idea there will be 1, 2 or 3 different models and I have no idea they have other or smilar mining roles we already got with the existing barges. I am afraid this will not be the case but it just adds to the mining barge mess.

Instead I would have liked to see:

Mining barge 1, mining barge 2, mining barge 3

#1 is for beginners
#2 is for advanced miners basicaly for highsec mining ops (ore)
#3 is maybe one of the new barges for Highsec mining, team, ore & ice mining alike, 0sec, deep space mining

#? One of the new mining barges to come could even be a modular ship type like our T3's. Just make one mining barge and use different modules to let pilots put them together for whatever reason they want to use them. Result: One barge only!

With this solution and as far I care you could get the Procurer, Skiff, Retriever and maybe even the Hulk to the junk yard - or even all of the already existing barges - just give us 3 new barges with one of the next updates!

[rant on] I was playing for a long time and did quit my subscription. I want to see NEW stuff in the game to get back! It gets boring after 2 or 3 years! [rant off]


Orca and Rorqual Support:

Orca and Rorqual should both get a boost for team mining ops (cargo, speed) and Rorqual should be allowed in Highsec

I am afraid as far the options are now with the new rebalancing of the barges it will not get my main character back to the game as a subscriber.

Not yet.

Keep trying CCP, it´s looking good afterall!

I feel like some of this is Lorem Ipsum, but from what i can tell, you want less options and a clear cut "best" mining barge?

May I ask why?

Or may I suggest one of several other MMOs where you dont have to make hard choices?
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#392 - 2012-08-09 12:45:26 UTC
Tao Shaile wrote:
I don't like the changes at all.

I thought there where too much mining barges already in game with different approaches to use them
(3 beginner barges, Highsec mining (Hulk), Ice mining (Mac), deep space mining (Skiff))

Wait, what??? You mean I wasn't supposed to be using my hulk in 0.0? The (old) skiff was meant for mercox, which, while only found in 0.0, does not mean the skiff was *the* 0.0 answer. Had you said hulk=volume, mac=ice, and skiff=mercox, then you'd be more to the mark.

Quote:
Now soon we get some more mining barges.CCP I think is working on them.

Where did you hear this? I've only seen the new ORE frigate.

Quote:
Mining barge 1, mining barge 2, mining barge 3

#1 is for beginners
#2 is for advanced miners basicaly for highsec mining ops (ore)
#3 is maybe one of the new barges for Highsec mining, team, ore & ice mining alike, 0sec, deep space mining

Or how about just listening to what the carebears have been asking for... a more gank-resistant tank and leaving the rest well-enough alone?

Quote:
#? One of the new mining barges to come could even be a modular ship type like our T3's. Just make one mining barge and use different modules to let pilots put them together for whatever reason they want to use them. Result: One barge only!

Oh dear god no.

Quote:
[rant on] I was playing for a long time and did quit my subscription. I want to see NEW stuff in the game to get back! It gets boring after 2 or 3 years! [rant off]

I've been here non-stop for something like eight now. Yeah, I did take a month's vacation here and there (like when IRON really went ka-blooey shortly after the german defection in Pure Blind). I'm nowhere near as rich as a lot of other folks my age. But I just like blasting rocks in the occasional hour or two between dinner and sleep that isn't filled with RL headaches.

Justin Thyme
The Salvage and Reclamation Guild
#393 - 2012-08-09 14:15:07 UTC
Atum wrote:
I'm nowhere near as rich as a lot of other folks my age. But I just like blasting rocks in the occasional hour or two between dinner and sleep that isn't filled with RL headaches.




That says it all for me sometimes. Mining is a zen moment. Paying attention to all around you but calming as well.

"Hunting rats is like mining for scrap metal... and occasionally striking gold"  I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thiev...-- Justin Thyme

Ordo Serran
Remember The Fallen.
Requiem Eternal
#394 - 2012-08-09 16:33:33 UTC
I'm slowly getting used to the new ships/bonuses... It isn't too bad overall, since I can now employ all the ships I've bought in some role or another. There are two things I'm not happy about though.
1) Rigs are permanent. We've rigged our barges/exhumers to fit their previous roles. Those roles have now been completely changed/stripped. ESPECIALLY if we've rigged some cargo expanders. Those are now just about useless.
2) Having the choice to augment tank vs. mining output vs. ore capacity is now only tank vs. mining output. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make some modules/rigs that can augment the Ore hold. It is silly to not allow the option to increase the ore bay. Make an Expanded Ore Hold module, and Ore Hold Expander rigs PLEASE!
Dave stark
#395 - 2012-08-09 16:35:31 UTC
Ordo Serran wrote:
I'm slowly getting used to the new ships/bonuses... It isn't too bad overall, since I can now employ all the ships I've bought in some role or another. There are two things I'm not happy about though.
1) Rigs are permanent. We've rigged our barges/exhumers to fit their previous roles. Those roles have now been completely changed/stripped. ESPECIALLY if we've rigged some cargo expanders. Those are now just about useless.
2) Having the choice to augment tank vs. mining output vs. ore capacity is now only tank vs. mining output. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make some modules/rigs that can augment the Ore hold. It is silly to not allow the option to increase the ore bay. Make an Expanded Ore Hold module, and Ore Hold Expander rigs PLEASE!


1) that's what you get for having a silly fit to begin with.
2) lets make rigs that make the mackinaw useless! how about no.
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#396 - 2012-08-09 16:39:42 UTC
Ordo Serran wrote:
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make some modules/rigs that can augment the Ore hold. It is silly to not allow the option to increase the ore bay. Make an Expanded Ore Hold module, and Ore Hold Expander rigs PLEASE!

No. As long as the hulk can fit one full cycle (with a hair of overhead) when the pilot is being boosted by a fully chipped, leadership trained, level 5 rorq pilot, and has every module, rig, and chip possible in their own head as well (including the Michi), there's no reason to increase the hulk's ore bay. Cargo, yes (see previous arguments re crystals), but not ore.
Jane Dough
Jane's Inc.
#397 - 2012-08-09 16:54:58 UTC
Atum wrote:
Ordo Serran wrote:
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make some modules/rigs that can augment the Ore hold. It is silly to not allow the option to increase the ore bay. Make an Expanded Ore Hold module, and Ore Hold Expander rigs PLEASE!

No. As long as the hulk can fit one full cycle (with a hair of overhead) when the pilot is being boosted by a fully chipped, leadership trained, level 5 rorq pilot, and has every module, rig, and chip possible in their own head as well (including the Michi), there's no reason to increase the hulk's ore bay. Cargo, yes (see previous arguments re crystals), but not ore.


Not if your play style is as a solo miner. The cut to the ore holds means the Hulk is not supposed to haul anything. Well, for a solo miner, that pretty much screws you over.
Solomon Cross
Lithium Financial and Exploration
#398 - 2012-08-09 17:17:41 UTC
Jane Dough wrote:
Not if your play style is as a solo miner. The cut to the ore holds means the Hulk is not supposed to haul anything. Well, for a solo miner, that pretty much screws you over.


That is what the Mack is for now.
Infinite Force
#399 - 2012-08-09 17:18:14 UTC
Atum wrote:
Ordo Serran wrote:
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make some modules/rigs that can augment the Ore hold. It is silly to not allow the option to increase the ore bay. Make an Expanded Ore Hold module, and Ore Hold Expander rigs PLEASE!

No. As long as the hulk can fit one full cycle (with a hair of overhead) when the pilot is being boosted by a fully chipped, leadership trained, level 5 rorq pilot, and has every module, rig, and chip possible in their own head as well (including the Michi), there's no reason to increase the hulk's ore bay. Cargo, yes (see previous arguments re crystals), but not ore.

While mining is relaxing for some and boring for others, expanded Ore Hold modules do NOT need to be added / created.

Use a Mack if you want a large, AFK(ish), Ore Hold.

I do have to agree though that being able to fit 2 full cycles in your Ore hold adds to the playability and usability of the ship without breaking anything (oh, wait, (/on sarcasm), you can be afk an extra 2 minutes (/off sarcasm)).

You can not AFK or Solo with a 2 cycle Ore hold. The people that are using Hulks now are in fleets, likely multiboxing, and having a 2 cycle Ore hold would only make fleet management & logistics somewhat easier.

More cargo, I've lobbied for in other threads - but CCP doesn't listen to feedback, so it was pointless blabbering.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!

Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#400 - 2012-08-09 17:44:59 UTC
Rigs are cheap, if you have to toss them for new rigs, hit a rock for a few cycles and its paid for.