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ASB is BULL.

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Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#261 - 2012-08-04 05:31:26 UTC
Freundliches Feuer wrote:
Umad bro?

So you loose your terribly fit bhaalgorn (TP + Tracking comp on a bhaal? Also single Neut? De Fuq?) to a carebear ship and you cry on the forums.

l2p


Umm...

How many neuts would you fit to go against a missile & drone boat - using one of those new shield boosters? I don't think packing a bhaal with neuts against a known target like that would be too bright an idea and I am a bit surprised he bothered to even fit 1 against a rattler like that.

**** fit? Sure but look at the situation a bit more.

The really powerful side of a bhaal has been its ability to gut the cap on a ship while holding it still and a rattlesnake can be one hell of a tough target for something designed to gut capacitors as it's core "evil" function - its not like a rattler is famous for its vast speed potential. Even well fit, a bhaal would be liable to find one to be a very serious fight - especially these days.

PS: "A generic mission fit" = specific hardeners against the target.

Now put in 4 of those new drone damage mods in the lows... with cruise, it'll easily exceed that 850 DPS while also tanking over 150k EHP - just mentioning in passing that it can also tank over 1300 DPS with the cap chargers and run them for quite some time that way.

Remove the cap chargers, dump about 40k EHP and go with a large shield booster + a cap booster setup and you can *STILL* run the thing at close to 800 DPS tank on it with almost 90% cap stability - which at least the neuts could pick on a little bit. All the while it's pounding you with ~850 DPS drone + missile damage...

As such, the last thing you'd probably want to pick a fight with would be an EM/Therm specific resist fit rattlesnake by using lasers. That thing has a very tough tank and can put out significant damage.
Freundliches Feuer
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2012-08-04 06:44:59 UTC
Mocam wrote:
Freundliches Feuer wrote:
Umad bro?

So you loose your terribly fit bhaalgorn (TP + Tracking comp on a bhaal? Also single Neut? De Fuq?) to a carebear ship and you cry on the forums.

l2p


Umm...

How many neuts would you fit to go against a missile & drone boat - using one of those new shield boosters? I don't think packing a bhaal with neuts against a known target like that would be too bright an idea and I am a bit surprised he bothered to even fit 1 against a rattler like that.

**** fit? Sure but look at the situation a bit more.

The really powerful side of a bhaal has been its ability to gut the cap on a ship while holding it still and a rattlesnake can be one hell of a tough target for something designed to gut capacitors as it's core "evil" function - its not like a rattler is famous for its vast speed potential. Even well fit, a bhaal would be liable to find one to be a very serious fight - especially these days.

PS: "A generic mission fit" = specific hardeners against the target.

Now put in 4 of those new drone damage mods in the lows... with cruise, it'll easily exceed that 850 DPS while also tanking over 150k EHP - just mentioning in passing that it can also tank over 1300 DPS with the cap chargers and run them for quite some time that way.

Remove the cap chargers, dump about 40k EHP and go with a large shield booster + a cap booster setup and you can *STILL* run the thing at close to 800 DPS tank on it with almost 90% cap stability - which at least the neuts could pick on a little bit. All the while it's pounding you with ~850 DPS drone + missile damage...

As such, the last thing you'd probably want to pick a fight with would be an EM/Therm specific resist fit rattlesnake by using lasers. That thing has a very tough tank and can put out significant damage.


You don't need to teach me the game, I've been playing it way before you. Also, 3x Neuts would have turned off the Damage control and invul, making his ancillary boosters tank MUCH less. And drone DPS don't mean anything, with a Bhaal you can easily dual web a drone and put your drones on it. The pilot was TERRIBLE, the Bhaal was HORRIBLE FIT and that's that.

I don't know what they teach you in that EVE Uni crap, but its definitely not right lol
Iyica de Tylmarand
Doomheim
#263 - 2012-08-04 08:55:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyica de Tylmarand
What does this have to do with ASBs? If it's a tanky ship vs tanky ship brawl where the fight is going to drag on, why can't the Bhaalgorn just kill the drones and BAM 80% of the Rattlesnake DPS is gone?


Also Alliance Tournament is hardly a viable ground to draw conclusions about whether a module is overpowered or not, that's why it has special rules in place. Frankly in TQ I've never had a moment where an ASB fit has caused much of a fuss. I met a double ASB merlin at one point but to fit those it hard to forego a web so kiting it was easy, it simply took a while to kill it. While there are some legitimate cases where an ASB in combination with a particular ship has created marvelous results, for the most part it sounds like people just being surprised that shield ships are now a viable option and can't (or unwilling) to adapt.
Cpt Branko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#264 - 2012-08-04 11:16:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Branko
Iyica de Tylmarand wrote:
people just being surprised that shield ships are now a viable option and can't (or unwilling) to adapt.


What the hell, people have been flying shield ships most of the time for ages, if anything it's the prevalent way of fitting PVP ships. For solo, or even smallish gang settings, active shield tank was viable ever since the introduction of "all-in-one" tackle module - the MWD-stopping scrambler. On bonused ships, of course.

I guess it is for some reason better now even active armour tank ships fit ASB tanks and live longer with them then either active armour fits or buffer fits.

I really don't understand the mindset of people who think ASBs were a good idea.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#265 - 2012-08-04 13:41:58 UTC
Cpt Branko wrote:
I guess it is for some reason better now even active armour tank ships fit ASB tanks and live longer with them then either active armour fits or buffer fits.


Change general armor tanking penalties from mass/agility/speed penalty to -shield, half problem solved.

brb
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#266 - 2012-08-04 13:44:52 UTC
Freundliches Feuer wrote:
Mocam wrote:
Freundliches Feuer wrote:
Umad bro?

So you loose your terribly fit bhaalgorn (TP + Tracking comp on a bhaal? Also single Neut? De Fuq?) to a carebear ship and you cry on the forums.

l2p


Umm...

How many neuts would you fit to go against a missile & drone boat - using one of those new shield boosters? I don't think packing a bhaal with neuts against a known target like that would be too bright an idea and I am a bit surprised he bothered to even fit 1 against a rattler like that.

**** fit? Sure but look at the situation a bit more.

The really powerful side of a bhaal has been its ability to gut the cap on a ship while holding it still and a rattlesnake can be one hell of a tough target for something designed to gut capacitors as it's core "evil" function - its not like a rattler is famous for its vast speed potential. Even well fit, a bhaal would be liable to find one to be a very serious fight - especially these days.

PS: "A generic mission fit" = specific hardeners against the target.

Now put in 4 of those new drone damage mods in the lows... with cruise, it'll easily exceed that 850 DPS while also tanking over 150k EHP - just mentioning in passing that it can also tank over 1300 DPS with the cap chargers and run them for quite some time that way.

Remove the cap chargers, dump about 40k EHP and go with a large shield booster + a cap booster setup and you can *STILL* run the thing at close to 800 DPS tank on it with almost 90% cap stability - which at least the neuts could pick on a little bit. All the while it's pounding you with ~850 DPS drone + missile damage...

As such, the last thing you'd probably want to pick a fight with would be an EM/Therm specific resist fit rattlesnake by using lasers. That thing has a very tough tank and can put out significant damage.


You don't need to teach me the game, I've been playing it way before you. Also, 3x Neuts would have turned off the Damage control and invul, making his ancillary boosters tank MUCH less. And drone DPS don't mean anything, with a Bhaal you can easily dual web a drone and put your drones on it. The pilot was TERRIBLE, the Bhaal was HORRIBLE FIT and that's that.

I don't know what they teach you in that EVE Uni crap, but its definitely not right lol


Thats bull, a rattlesnake will always win the drone war, and the rattler probably had a nos wich would ahve easiliy allowed him to keep the invul running (and you really cant neut off a dcu with large neuts)!!
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#267 - 2012-08-04 14:37:02 UTC
OH MAI GAWD. A ENERGY NEUTRALIZER SHIP IS COUNTERED BY THE ANCILLARY SHIELD BOOSTER MODULE?!!!?!?!?!?!?!

Durrr

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#268 - 2012-08-04 16:11:11 UTC
mmmmmmm Tears

Really OP? Sisi

Nuff said

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"
Knickers Offalot
Doomheim
#269 - 2012-08-04 18:48:21 UTC
I sense exquisite trollage.

I offer a provisional 9/10 score (on the proviso that you aren't, in fact, simply terribad).
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#270 - 2012-08-04 20:52:26 UTC
Freundliches Feuer wrote:
[
You don't need to teach me the game, I've been playing it way before you. Also, 3x Neuts would have turned off the Damage control and invul, making his ancillary boosters tank MUCH less. And drone DPS don't mean anything, with a Bhaal you can easily dual web a drone and put your drones on it. The pilot was TERRIBLE, the Bhaal was HORRIBLE FIT and that's that.

I don't know what they teach you in that EVE Uni crap, but its definitely not right lol


Oh so ancient guru of the ships and fittings...

- The drone DPS using 4 of the new mods clocks over 140 DPS per drone - that's over 700 DPS total with 5 sentries or heavies.

- the cruise missiles only account for between 130-160 DPS depending on the type they use -- that's trivial and most won't be using faction missiles. It's an AFK mission boat or they'd be using a Machariel or CNR class ship.

Get updated on your info - you're out of date, especially with respect to drones.

What does the uni teach? Well at least it tries to keep the lessons up with current info. /facepalm
OMGxxxOMG
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#271 - 2012-08-04 21:27:52 UTC
ASB just killed armor tanking SOLO pvp because it will always loose to ASB shield ships Period.
Cpt Branko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#272 - 2012-08-04 21:48:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Branko
Sigh.

Okay. If you actually ever go soloing in a multibillion BS on TQ, you will, if you are going to play smart and actually don't like losing loot pinatas, be in every engagement with one foot out. Whether it's a plated Machariel (which I did fly, although mostly for duo with Bhaalgorn, rarely solo), or a Bhaalgorn which is actually superior for solo if we ignore the fact you need to tackle with covops / alt often due to cruddy scanres, you will start the fight at range. Maintaining said range where you can warpoff is more or less trivial in a Bhaal; you can dual web people up to 39km without links, faction point overheated goes over 30km, and you can literally erase their capacitor at 30-something km with faction neuts.

The reason for this is very simple, and is not some teorethical EFTed anti-Bhaal fit Rattlesnake with 3 nos or whatever. It is because any fight has the potential to turn into a lots vs one, and then you die if you're balls deep. However, even IF somehow the Rattlesnake gets the jump on the Bhaalgorn, you're still going to get to your preffered range where you can run away if you wish - which is also a range at which Ogres become highly impractical - before your 330K EHP buffer is gone (It is not unreasonable to assume that anyone who is willing to fly a 1 billion+ BS will invest in a proper fit pushing the price somewhere in the domain of a few billion, and then, well, HG slaves are just sensible since they don't cost much more).

That said, even IF you could actually fit a ASB Rattlesnake to kill a solo Bhaal provided the fight starts on Rattlesnake's terms, there are a few things to consider:

  • The solo Bhaalgorns on TQ are exceedingly rare. The ones which will also let you pick the range at which the fight starts doubly so.
  • The Bhaalgorn is a superior ship because it can kill or run from just about anything, and is especially good for killing anything which relies on cap. On the other hand this super-specialized Rattlesnake fit is good at killing.... Bhaalgorns. Or spinning in hangar, which is more likely.
  • You don't wait for faction BS to come in your home system and then refit to kill it. That's nonsense, and also a good way to lose your faction BS to bait and blob. You roam to get kills. You don't know what exactly you will run into, so you fit something which is good against the targets you expect.


That said, stop posting in a damned troll thread.

OMGxxxOMG wrote:
ASB just killed armor tanking SOLO pvp because it will always loose to ASB shield ships Period.


Nanoing is the best answer I can think of. That and fitting ASB yourself but then you put yourself in scram range most likely where you have to slug it out until charges go out, which is just too long.

I don't know why people actually think that is a good idea.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#273 - 2012-08-05 07:18:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Smabs
People haven't worked out optimal fits for asb stuff yet. But if you have a look at the asb/mse harpy or asb drake you can start to see why it has the potential to be ridiculous. This is made even worse when links are factored in, where a cheap battlecruiser could easily tank a small gang.

It is overpowered but it hasn't been fully worked out and isn't FOTM yet, but give it a couple of months and I'm sure it will be.

Edit: Ferox moreso than drake. But anyway, I've heard people saying that they look for a way to squeeze an asb on any ship.
Green Beans
R and J Inc.
#274 - 2012-08-05 08:54:07 UTC
Sandvich in TF2 = ASB

This line for rent! YOUR AD HERE!

Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#275 - 2012-08-05 15:15:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
I've used the setups below so far for the Drake (minus the anti-frigate setup). Clearly Minmatar and Caldari ships benifit the most from Ancillary Shield Boosters. Caldari ships with resistence bonus are the most interesting. They're able to maintain a large amount of buffer while also mitigating damage actively, aswell as a Minmatar ship bonused for shield boost amount. I'm still trying to figure out the best setup for a Cyclone that's not GIMPED (dual XLASB-cyclone is GIMP). A Cyclone with 3 large Ancillary Shield Boosters seems legit. If I wasn't fcing so much I'd have more time to theory craft and use certain setups. However, I can honestly say most of the possible setups with asb's have and are being used.


[Drake, Anser - Mark II]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Internal Force Field Array I

Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 150
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Assault Missile
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5


[Drake, Anser - Mark III]
Reactor Control Unit II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Internal Force Field Array I

Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 150
Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 150
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Assault Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Assault Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Assault Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Assault Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Assault Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Assault Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Caldari Navy Scourge Assault Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Havent used this yet.

Hobgoblin II x5


[Drake, Bite] Anti-frigate
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Warrior II x5

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#276 - 2012-08-05 15:28:57 UTC
Caldari hybrids in particular are interesting. They have alot of excess CPU for unbonused missile slots that never get used. You can easily fit an X-Large onto a Ferox and Eagle and fit a rack of Ions. The Eagle will tank 1700ish overheated before boosts or implants. With only a 2.6k shield buffer you're in for one hell of a ride though.
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
#277 - 2012-08-05 15:31:40 UTC
I get amazed how many Stupid people complain about anythign that changes a bit the game into soemjthign better! THis is the first time in years that some game changes PROMOTES small scale warfare and active tanking and tactics a bit different.

Use your brain isntead of your EFT numbers only.

Other dayin this same tes servers you did your test I defeated a navy scorpion using Double ASB with my SACRILEDGE.. yes even a pathetic sacriledge. I simply kept orbiting with my AB and doigna bit of damage.. Eventually he ran out of charges...

Just use your brains.!! And stop complainign about the best thing that happened in this game in last 4 years!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#278 - 2012-08-05 16:38:13 UTC
Seishi Maru wrote:
I get amazed how many Stupid people complain about anythign that changes a bit the game into soemjthign better! THis is the first time in years that some game changes PROMOTES small scale warfare and active tanking and tactics a bit different.

Use your brain isntead of your EFT numbers only.

Other dayin this same tes servers you did your test I defeated a navy scorpion using Double ASB with my SACRILEDGE.. yes even a pathetic sacriledge. I simply kept orbiting with my AB and doigna bit of damage.. Eventually he ran out of charges...

Just use your brains.!! And stop complainign about the best thing that happened in this game in last 4 years!


So... the sacrilege and the myrmidon are both better with ASBs than with armor reps?

Interesting.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
#279 - 2012-08-05 22:27:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Seishi Maru wrote:
I get amazed how many Stupid people complain about anythign that changes a bit the game into soemjthign better! THis is the first time in years that some game changes PROMOTES small scale warfare and active tanking and tactics a bit different.

Use your brain isntead of your EFT numbers only.

Other dayin this same tes servers you did your test I defeated a navy scorpion using Double ASB with my SACRILEDGE.. yes even a pathetic sacriledge. I simply kept orbiting with my AB and doigna bit of damage.. Eventually he ran out of charges...

Just use your brains.!! And stop complainign about the best thing that happened in this game in last 4 years!


So... the sacrilege and the myrmidon are both better with ASBs than with armor reps?

Interesting.

-Liang



No the sacriledge was using armor reps... and You know very well that a ship defeatign the other does nto mean one is better than the other. I am not the average puny poster you liek to play your mind games with.


ASB are a great adition to this game. The only thing that might need to be looked at is the capacity of fitting 2 of them.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#280 - 2012-08-05 23:36:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
The thing that cracks me up is that CCP set a hard rule for no 2x ASB setups in the AT because it is clearly overpowered. Yet they haven't issued any kind of hot fix for it on the live server. Why CCP, why? Just fix it for the rest of us too.

Also, I would bet that a lot of people would give the ASB a bit more of a break if the Reactive Armor Hardner was a better module. I haven't used it personally in pvp yet, but from detailed reports I have read not only is the cycle time too long and the algorithm a little wonky, but it makes you even MORE vulnerable to cap warfare. I just bought some to try out on various ships, but from the reading, I think the general consensus is that it is fairly useless for pvp. Now, if they halved the cycle time and halved the cap usage, it might be a useful active armor module... I think the imbalance has a lot of people angry.

If they didnt nerf the ASB, but buffed the active armor mod instead, that might give a bit more parity and quell some of the complaints. I'd be willing to give that a chance...

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!