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Help Me find a good missioning ship
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CorInaXeraL
The Dresdeneers
#21 - 2012-08-02 21:21:41 UTC
I've tried strategic cruisers, and missile boats for that matter, and in truth I've not enjoyed them as much as I do lumbering around in a battleship. For all I hear about the Tengu, it seems more FOTM rather than enjoyment. Note, some people enjoy them. Don't get me wrong.

I've never had as much fun missioning as I have when flying either a Paladin or a Machariel. I don't like blitzing missions, I like getting into the thick of it and leaving nothing but a wake of destruction in my path, and battleships do that wonderfully. That being said, I don't fly the Paladin anymore as I've swapped out for a fun little cruiser (non-strategic) clone while keeping my Machariel clone untouched.

It really comes down to what you, as a person/player, want to fly.

If you like battleships, I would go with that Domi fit that was posted. Flying lumps that they are, they are effective. Sometimes the 'optimal' fit isn't always what you crave. Most fun I ever had was using a MWD Mach while flitting about alpha-striking with 1400mm's...because why the hell not?

tl;dr : Fly whatever you think you'll enjoy most, ask about fits for that certain ship. If you ask for 'which is best', you'll get FOTM'd to death and may not even enjoy that particular platform.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#22 - 2012-08-02 21:43:38 UTC
Mocktar Olachenko wrote:
That's a lot more constructive, thanks. To address your points:

1) Thankfully, missiles do come in different damage flavors. While you lose the 25% dmg bonus, I believe math has been done (I'm in no way bored enough to find the threads but they're out there) showing that even without the bonus, damage appropriate missiles will still do more damage than just sticking with Scourge. Anecdotally speaking, I'm lazy and still stick with Scourge for everything and I do fine. Sure, those Sansha and Blood Raider missions take a little longer, but I generally blitz anyway.

2) All it takes is a little situational awareness. See webs, immediately kill webbers. If the trigger is the one webbing, kill it and burn away and make use of your range.

3) With three rigor rigs, Target Nav Prediction at IV and Guided Missile Precision at III (far from perfect skills) I still kill frigates very quickly even with T1 missiles. Is it faster than drones? No, but it's not that much longer either.

No the Tengu is not a godmobile, but no ship is and if there was we'd all be using it. Its deficiencies however are, IMO, easier to overcome than other ships. But to each their own.


1) Yes missiles come in different flavours. Yes you can still kill things with scourge if you're lazy. But I'm not talking about if it can be done. If you want to, you can do level 4s in an Assault Frigate, that doesn't mean you should. Same deal with Tengus. If you aren't shooting at Kinetic weak rats, you should be flying something else. From memory, both a CNR and a Tengu have about 700 kinetic DPS (plus the CNR has drones) but then you come up against (f.e) Sanshas. You switch to EM. CNR still hasn't lost any DPS, yet the Tengu is down to 500 or so.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying it shouldn't be done.

2) Yes you can kill webbers. In fact when I'm flying my Tengu I deliberately target frigates first, because they MIGHT have a web. No waiting until they turn it on, if they CAN have a web, kill it. But then you find the missions (low sec plexes actually) thta have 2-3 stasis towers and you can either warp out, or die. It's as simple as that. I can't count the number of Tengu wrecks I've seen in those plexes. Webs = death.

3) While you're shooting those frigates, my CNR has already killed half the battleships, and set drones onto the frigates. By the time I've killed the big stuff, the drones have killed the little stuff and I move on. You can't do that with the Tengu, you have to be shooting at the frigates, because if you don't kill them, they'll web you and then you die. In a battleship, you actually have a tank and can safely ignore frigates until your drones get to them.

I have a Tengu, I have a CNR... I mostly use a Nightmare :D T2 Tachyons are just plain better than missiles for missioning.
Baltarrisk
Theran Industries
#23 - 2012-08-02 22:09:13 UTC
CorInaXeraL wrote:
I've tried strategic cruisers, and missile boats for that matter, and in truth I've not enjoyed them as much as I do lumbering around in a battleship. For all I hear about the Tengu, it seems more FOTM rather than enjoyment. Note, some people enjoy them. Don't get me wrong.

I've never had as much fun missioning as I have when flying either a Paladin or a Machariel. I don't like blitzing missions, I like getting into the thick of it and leaving nothing but a wake of destruction in my path, and battleships do that wonderfully. That being said, I don't fly the Paladin anymore as I've swapped out for a fun little cruiser (non-strategic) clone while keeping my Machariel clone untouched.

It really comes down to what you, as a person/player, want to fly.

If you like battleships, I would go with that Domi fit that was posted. Flying lumps that they are, they are effective. Sometimes the 'optimal' fit isn't always what you crave. Most fun I ever had was using a MWD Mach while flitting about alpha-striking with 1400mm's...because why the hell not?

tl;dr : Fly whatever you think you'll enjoy most, ask about fits for that certain ship. If you ask for 'which is best', you'll get FOTM'd to death and may not even enjoy that particular platform.


Your post is one of the most helpful. I wasnt really asking for the best more or less what people had been using for mission boats with the lvl 4's im doing then i can sorta compare/contrast setups and make one myself. Like i stated earlier i built a pssive shield tanked rattlesnake in eft using only t2 fittings and i got ~800 dps tank for unified damage distribution is was about 1k+ for angels and about 900 for guristas. the only issues is spending the 600mil on a rattlesnake lol.
Teemo Is-OP
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-08-02 23:42:08 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Mocktar Olachenko wrote:
That's a lot more constructive, thanks. To address your points:

1) Thankfully, missiles do come in different damage flavors. While you lose the 25% dmg bonus, I believe math has been done (I'm in no way bored enough to find the threads but they're out there) showing that even without the bonus, damage appropriate missiles will still do more damage than just sticking with Scourge. Anecdotally speaking, I'm lazy and still stick with Scourge for everything and I do fine. Sure, those Sansha and Blood Raider missions take a little longer, but I generally blitz anyway.

2) All it takes is a little situational awareness. See webs, immediately kill webbers. If the trigger is the one webbing, kill it and burn away and make use of your range.

3) With three rigor rigs, Target Nav Prediction at IV and Guided Missile Precision at III (far from perfect skills) I still kill frigates very quickly even with T1 missiles. Is it faster than drones? No, but it's not that much longer either.

No the Tengu is not a godmobile, but no ship is and if there was we'd all be using it. Its deficiencies however are, IMO, easier to overcome than other ships. But to each their own.


1) Yes missiles come in different flavours. Yes you can still kill things with scourge if you're lazy. But I'm not talking about if it can be done. If you want to, you can do level 4s in an Assault Frigate, that doesn't mean you should. Same deal with Tengus. If you aren't shooting at Kinetic weak rats, you should be flying something else. From memory, both a CNR and a Tengu have about 700 kinetic DPS (plus the CNR has drones) but then you come up against (f.e) Sanshas. You switch to EM. CNR still hasn't lost any DPS, yet the Tengu is down to 500 or so.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying it shouldn't be done.

2) Yes you can kill webbers. In fact when I'm flying my Tengu I deliberately target frigates first, because they MIGHT have a web. No waiting until they turn it on, if they CAN have a web, kill it. But then you find the missions (low sec plexes actually) thta have 2-3 stasis towers and you can either warp out, or die. It's as simple as that. I can't count the number of Tengu wrecks I've seen in those plexes. Webs = death.

3) While you're shooting those frigates, my CNR has already killed half the battleships, and set drones onto the frigates. By the time I've killed the big stuff, the drones have killed the little stuff and I move on. You can't do that with the Tengu, you have to be shooting at the frigates, because if you don't kill them, they'll web you and then you die. In a battleship, you actually have a tank and can safely ignore frigates until your drones get to them.

I have a Tengu, I have a CNR... I mostly use a Nightmare :D T2 Tachyons are just plain better than missiles for missioning.


Dont forget that many people recommend tengu for missioning because of its convenience (afk factor):

One ammo type (sometimes one size as well)

Orbit @ 50-70 km

Watch a movie press f1.

Problem is when flying a tengu without paying attention to damage application (counting volleys, switching to fury when not killing frigs, etc) the tengu ends up doing a lot less - wait fo it - dps. Basically it suffers from the same thing as all missile pve boats: more micro more damage; less micro a LOT less damage.

IMO if you don't want to pay too much attention go for a drone ship so you dont have to alt tab every time you want to switch targets. If you don't mind paying some attention, I would suggest going for high end turret ship (Nightmare, Varg, Mach, Kronos, Vindi etc). In my experience they require about the same amount of attention as piloting a "semi-afk" tengu, but do way more damage.
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#25 - 2012-08-03 00:22:30 UTC
Not sure how much ISK you have, but if I were you I would aim for a mach. Your gunnery skills are better than your missile skills. You could try a maelstrom in the interim till you have isk, but they very different ships.
If you going to go maelstrom train mini BS to 4 to start with, if mach, train both to 4. Then train all the support skills for large projectile turrets to 4. Controlled burst not so important for projectile ships, then complete the training for T2 800ac.

So basically If you can afford a mach now, train both race BS4, support skills to 4, get in mach and you won't be sorry.. then finish the training for the T2 800 AC's.

... What next ??
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2012-08-03 02:54:47 UTC
Looking at your skills, Ishtar immediately stood out as an option. Dominix would also be a good choice but you need to train up the battleship skill, only having it to level 2 will really hobble it if you decide to use it.

With your missile support skills in the shape they are, I'm afraid your wasting time on heavy missiles 5 at the moment. Get all your support skills to 4 first then push HM to 5 and then heavy missile spec to 4. Guided missile precision and target navigation prediction are the first of the missile support skills you should push to 5.

Gunnery skills are in about the same shape, get the support skills up to 4 then push the 2 skills needed for the T2's to 5, can't remember them offhand.

Overall, I think your best starting choice is going to be a drone boat, especially taking the drone damage mods into consideration.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-08-03 09:24:18 UTC
Klymer wrote:
Looking at your skills, Ishtar immediately stood out as an option. Dominix would also be a good choice but you need to train up the battleship skill, only having it to level 2 will really hobble it if you decide to use it.

With your missile support skills in the shape they are, I'm afraid your wasting time on heavy missiles 5 at the moment. Get all your support skills to 4 first then push HM to 5 and then heavy missile spec to 4. Guided missile precision and target navigation prediction are the first of the missile support skills you should push to 5.

Gunnery skills are in about the same shape, get the support skills up to 4 then push the 2 skills needed for the T2's to 5, can't remember them offhand.

Overall, I think your best starting choice is going to be a drone boat, especially taking the drone damage mods into consideration.


For what it's worth, the two support skills needed at Level 5 for T2 battleship guns are Motion Prediction (for short-range pulse lasers, blasters, and autocannons) and Sharpshooter (for long-range beam lasers, railguns, and artillery). Each of them takes from six to ten days to train, depending on attribute point allocation and implants.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
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