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The hulk has a touch too little tank still
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Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#21 - 2012-08-02 22:13:22 UTC
Aglais wrote:
I don't think anyone in here understands what 'tiericide' means. There's no "standard" mining ship anymore. At all. You now have three choices for which mining vessel you want to fly, and which one you take for the task will be depend on whether or not you want better mining efficiency, ore capacity or defensive capability.

You're all used to the Hulk being the top tier mining barge, and it was simply the best at everything. You are clinging to old ideas and hoping they don't stop being truths. After tiericide, the differentiating factors will be the roles of the ship, and how their stats correlate with them. The Hulk is the best when it comes to pulling ore out of asteroids. The Mackinaw has the best ore bay, and the Skiff (I'm pretty sure that's the one) is the most hardened and likely meant more for solo mining the way all of you want your hulks to fly like. Hell, if I remember right the Skiff even has bonuses to it's strip miners or whatever so that it mines comparably to the other two despite only having one hardpoint to put the thing on. That should mean something.



Actually I think you are the one mistaking the intentions, and desires of the miners (well, most of us). We aren't asking for Hulk to have the best tank, or even the 2nd best tank. We are asking that it can take more than a hit or two from anything larger than a frigate, in order to either let dps kill off the rats, or in pvp case, give the miner a chance at getting away (or again letting their dps coverage kill off the attacker).
Hulks currently on live walk a fine line there, as a suicide ganker in a destroyer can take them out if they are in .8 or lower (all the d-scan, don't be there when they arrive arguments aside), and in low sec rats can be delt with but hurt like hell at times. Raising their tank slightly was amazing and we were content. Dropping it down makes it entirely too weak, and too easy to be picked off. In particular out in low / 0.0, it would get to a point where if they see ANYONE in system they would have to scramble for base, because a small pack of suiciders could have a field day taking out several of them before covering ships could take them down.


We understand roles, and I personally love that they are trying to give them to the ships, but they also were rather specific when they said they wanted a bit more ehp on all of them.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Suddenly Forums ForumKings
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-08-03 23:30:12 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Aglais wrote:
I don't think anyone in here understands what 'tiericide' means. There's no "standard" mining ship anymore. At all. You now have three choices for which mining vessel you want to fly, and which one you take for the task will be depend on whether or not you want better mining efficiency, ore capacity or defensive capability.

You're all used to the Hulk being the top tier mining barge, and it was simply the best at everything. You are clinging to old ideas and hoping they don't stop being truths. After tiericide, the differentiating factors will be the roles of the ship, and how their stats correlate with them. The Hulk is the best when it comes to pulling ore out of asteroids. The Mackinaw has the best ore bay, and the Skiff (I'm pretty sure that's the one) is the most hardened and likely meant more for solo mining the way all of you want your hulks to fly like. Hell, if I remember right the Skiff even has bonuses to it's strip miners or whatever so that it mines comparably to the other two despite only having one hardpoint to put the thing on. That should mean something.



Actually I think you are the one mistaking the intentions, and desires of the miners (well, most of us). We aren't asking for Hulk to have the best tank, or even the 2nd best tank. We are asking that it can take more than a hit or two from anything larger than a frigate, in order to either let dps kill off the rats, or in pvp case, give the miner a chance at getting away (or again letting their dps coverage kill off the attacker).
Hulks currently on live walk a fine line there, as a suicide ganker in a destroyer can take them out if they are in .8 or lower (all the d-scan, don't be there when they arrive arguments aside), and in low sec rats can be delt with but hurt like hell at times. Raising their tank slightly was amazing and we were content. Dropping it down makes it entirely too weak, and too easy to be picked off. In particular out in low / 0.0, it would get to a point where if they see ANYONE in system they would have to scramble for base, because a small pack of suiciders could have a field day taking out several of them before covering ships could take them down.


We understand roles, and I personally love that they are trying to give them to the ships, but they also were rather specific when they said they wanted a bit more ehp on all of them.


Pre patch: Fit a tank.
Post patch: Get a skiff.
Anazzar
Polaris Space Industries
#23 - 2012-08-04 09:15:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Anazzar
Zyella Stormborn wrote:



We understand roles



No, no you don't.

The solution to the problem you are having there is that you need to fly a skiff since you are solo mining.

The hulk is no longer the be all and end all of mining ships it is a fleet ship

And if you don't know how to deal with rats in a fleet even though people in this thread have already posted easy solutions then you have bigger issues to deal with than hulk EHP.

As for suicide ganking, again skiffy to the rescue. And for null ops, well if they have landed on grid and you are not aligned and warping out then you have already failed.
Ooda
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-08-04 11:15:42 UTC
Anazzar wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:



We understand roles




The hulk is no longer the be all and end all of mining ships it is a fleet ship



It is a crap-fleetship if it burns down before someone can kill the rats. I don't think this will happen, but you'll need a fit even more expensive than it is now allready. You're going to need a strong active tank - or someone repping them which could have been a miner on it's own. Especially in Drone Regions, where rats vary a lot more in dmg than in other spaces.

Anyway - hulk is getting nerfed for no reason - cargospace reduction + tank reduction = very hard usability nerf. On top of it, mining will become less valuable just because everyone and their mother can use macks and be AFK all the time in highsec :)

Good one? I think not - it's a really crappy change for active playing miners with more than one account (which is the common used tactic to earn comparable iskies to other activities anyway - especially if you earn more money in HS than in 0.0).
Frying Doom
#25 - 2012-08-04 11:27:20 UTC
It is just a simple case of risk vs reward. The value of ore will balance it self out better as they get rid of more and more bots.

So the choice is simple if you are worried about Null rats or HS ganks, Don't fly a hulk.

It really is that simple, if you want more safety, fly something with a higher ehp while sacrificing some yield. If you have overwatch ships for rats or have factored in the loss of your hulk into mining profits then fly a hulk.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Ooda
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-08-04 14:08:53 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
It is just a simple case of risk vs reward. The value of ore will balance it self out better as they get rid of more and more bots.


Are you really that damn ignorant? Mining in a Barge with a dozillion cycle-orehold which can be flown by 5 day old toons won't increase mineral-supply? Erm, yes! .. lawl.

Quote:

So the choice is simple if you are worried about Null rats or HS ganks, Don't fly a hulk.


So you can use a hulk in HS with no problem - but you can't use it in 0.0 just because rats will eat ya? Nice RISK vs REWARD - go troll someone else, ty.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-08-04 19:26:03 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Denidil wrote:
when you nerfed the tank back down you nerfed it back down too hard.. with the current set of changes it is still too easy ot suicide a hulk.

That's the point numb nuts

you pick yield, tank, or ore bay. You can't have 2, you can only pick 1

also hulks only need a single level of skill now and all of them cost the same to build


edit:how is this a nerf? they are boosting the hulks ehp and giving it better mining. Nerf my ass

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#28 - 2012-08-04 22:45:01 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Denidil wrote:
when you nerfed the tank back down you nerfed it back down too hard.. with the current set of changes it is still too easy ot suicide a hulk.

That's the point numb nuts

you pick yield, tank, or ore bay. You can't have 2, you can only pick 1

also hulks only need a single level of skill now and all of them cost the same to build


edit:how is this a nerf? they are boosting the hulks ehp and giving it better mining. Nerf my ass



Unless something changed again recently (which is entirely possible, since its test), they dropped the Hulk's ehp due to resist drops a bit. If they have increased their mining even more, then it does indeed help balance the aboves argument about risk / reward, and I have no argument. Cool If they did not, then the price of the ship does not justify how paper thin it is for the small bonus it gives over the others (again, if the price of the materials list to make the ship have dropped to justify, my arguments are moot and I am happy with the changes all around, haven't been on in a couple of days so not sure of latest changes if any).

Again, I don't see where anyone asked for 2. May want to re read the posts. If the Hulk stays with the same tank as it has on live, many of us are ok with that. If it got a slight buff, we were ecstatic. But making a ship that big and that expensive (or did they reduce the cost for producing them?) also easier than it currently is (a t2 dessie can drop a tanked Hulk in painfully few seconds if they even land within range) doesn't make much sense.

The changes to the mack were pretty amazing. The changes to the skiff were... odd, but I am sure some pple will use them.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Frying Doom
#29 - 2012-08-04 23:38:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Ooda wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
It is just a simple case of risk vs reward. The value of ore will balance it self out better as they get rid of more and more bots.


Are you really that damn ignorant? Mining in a Barge with a dozillion cycle-orehold which can be flown by 5 day old toons won't increase mineral-supply? Erm, yes! .. lawl.

Yeah the ability to fly an exhumer easier will really make the PvP players flock to Mining. If there are new players they will probably fall into the same categories as the current playerbase so just increasing supply and demand. As usual the majority of minerals will come from the same old group of miners.

Ooda wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

So the choice is simple if you are worried about Null rats or HS ganks, Don't fly a hulk.


So you can use a hulk in HS with no problem - but you can't use it in 0.0 just because rats will eat ya? Nice RISK vs REWARD - go troll someone else, ty.

So you can't read and don't know part of the reason for the change was due to Hi-sec ganking. So yeah you can use a hulk in Hi-sec if you are an idiot. Hell hulks and macks will still get picked off in Hi, Hulks because they are paper thin and macks because the miners are probably afk.

As to Null, if you have over watch as I said you can use a hulk and have the over watch kill the rats, if not then don't fly a hulk.

Edit: why is it so hard for some people to grasp the fact you have to choose, yield, tank or cargo. Just 1 of these is all you get now.
If you want more ore use a hulk but don't be surprised if it goes boom. Use a mack if you want cargo so you don't have to sit at the keyboard all the time or choose a skiff if you want a bigger tank. Or just fly T1 the yield isn't that much different but they cost a lot less.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Ooda
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-08-05 01:00:57 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

So you can't read and don't know part of the reason for the change was due to Hi-sec ganking. So yeah you can use a hulk in Hi-sec if you are an idiot. Hell hulks and macks will still get picked off in Hi, Hulks because they are paper thin and macks because the miners are probably afk.


Hell, there are HS-systems in which mining in a Hulk is totally safe - and the whole reason why ganks occured so much is players stupidness - do you really think smart players will use anything other than a hulk for HS? srsly? Maybe a mack just because of convenience.

Quote:

As to Null, if you have over watch as I said you can use a hulk and have the over watch kill the rats, if not then don't fly a hulk.

Edit: why is it so hard for some people to grasp the fact you have to choose, yield, tank or cargo. Just 1 of these is all you get now.
If you want more ore use a hulk but don't be surprised if it goes boom. Use a mack if you want cargo so you don't have to sit at the keyboard all the time or choose a skiff if you want a bigger tank. Or just fly T1 the yield isn't that much different but they cost a lot less.


So you still get the same rewards in Highsec, without the risk by simple rats? Nice decision, and, even though I'm going to repeat myself - nice risk vs reward.

It's not that I have any problem with it, I will still tank all 0.0 rats with hulks - even if I have to use 15 shield-bots - but it still remains a stupid-change in a greater view which has no valid baseline-argument anyway and which will do just nothing besides creating a more annoying load of tasks on players like the cargohold-mess. But hell yeah, doing changes for the sake of changing stuff is good!
Frying Doom
#31 - 2012-08-05 01:54:58 UTC
Ooda wrote:

So you still get the same rewards in Highsec, without the risk by simple rats? Nice decision, and, even though I'm going to repeat myself - nice risk vs reward.

It's not that I have any problem with it, I will still tank all 0.0 rats with hulks - even if I have to use 15 shield-bots - but it still remains a stupid-change in a greater view which has no valid baseline-argument anyway and which will do just nothing besides creating a more annoying load of tasks on players like the cargohold-mess. But hell yeah, doing changes for the sake of changing stuff is good!

Well I for one welcome the change it allows players to choose what they want without just getting screwed. The old way was to try and get a good tank and a good yield out of a hulk. A mack was only for Ice mining and no one used a skiff except for Merc.

As to the risk vs. reward given the number of kills hulkagedon has produced I would hardly call hi-sec safe. It was luck pure and simple. I have never lost a ship to a gank but the fact that one loss on a paper thin ship could destroy hours worth of mining stunk as far as risk vs reward.

And hell if you cannot make the risk vs. reward work for you in Null try Hi or a Wormhole.
As to the cargo hold mess, if you cant figure that out as a hulk is now a fleet ship, you might want to join EvE Uni I'm sure they can help.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Ooda
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-08-05 07:55:55 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Ooda wrote:

So you still get the same rewards in Highsec, without the risk by simple rats? Nice decision, and, even though I'm going to repeat myself - nice risk vs reward.

It's not that I have any problem with it, I will still tank all 0.0 rats with hulks - even if I have to use 15 shield-bots - but it still remains a stupid-change in a greater view which has no valid baseline-argument anyway and which will do just nothing besides creating a more annoying load of tasks on players like the cargohold-mess. But hell yeah, doing changes for the sake of changing stuff is good!

Well I for one welcome the change it allows players to choose what they want without just getting screwed. The old way was to try and get a good tank and a good yield out of a hulk. A mack was only for Ice mining and no one used a skiff except for Merc.

As to the risk vs. reward given the number of kills hulkagedon has produced I would hardly call hi-sec safe. It was luck pure and simple. I have never lost a ship to a gank but the fact that one loss on a paper thin ship could destroy hours worth of mining stunk as far as risk vs reward.

And hell if you cannot make the risk vs. reward work for you in Null try Hi or a Wormhole.
As to the cargo hold mess, if you cant figure that out as a hulk is now a fleet ship, you might want to join EvE Uni I'm sure they can help.


You are still under the impression that I can't figure it out, lol. All I say is that both - the tanknerf and the cargonerf is absolutely useless, wasted and without any justification. Both are doing just nothing - except that hulks will be more annoying. Hulk has absolutely not needed a nerf - it was a fleet ship prior, and it is a fleetship after - just more annoying. The only change which actually does something is that it will be impossible to increase ore-bay to stay longer in the belt - but guess what - that's a Highsec - fit anyway and I couldn't care less.

And no, surviving highsec is no luck - it's just a question of paying attention to what you are doing (which is - for the most players - to boring to actually do for mining).

OH, and, since you haven't you seen ore prices lately - considering the logistics involved with 0.0 - you are actually making less money in 0.0 than in HS.
Frying Doom
#33 - 2012-08-05 08:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Ooda wrote:
OH, and, since you haven't you seen ore prices lately - considering the logistics involved with 0.0 - you are actually making less money in 0.0 than in HS.

I couldn't answer that as I am currently moving a mining fleet back to Hi-sec. But then again it has been pointed out for years Null is useless and the risk is too variable depending on whether you are in a large alliance or small. Hell I make lots of money off ABC's but then again you wouldn't catch me dead in that hell pit called Null.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Ooda
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-08-05 10:08:02 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Ooda wrote:
OH, and, since you haven't you seen ore prices lately - considering the logistics involved with 0.0 - you are actually making less money in 0.0 than in HS.

I couldn't answer that as I am currently moving a mining fleet back to Hi-sec. But then again it has been pointed out for years Null is useless and the risk is too variable depending on whether you are in a large alliance or small. Hell I make lots of money off ABC's but then again you wouldn't catch me dead in that hell pit called Null.


Yeah, and yet the only ones who are affected by those changes are 0.0 residents - tanking highsec rats is no problem, and having enough crystals for a high-sec belt isn't either - with this changes - both "issues" will be present in null, while highsec remains trolololol-unaffected...

Glassss Eyes
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-08-05 10:49:43 UTC
I want my hit points on the hulk back. Cry

i have lost over 1000 hp on sisi. Those 1000 hitpoints have saved me from being ganked in a fleet by 3 destroyers.
Frying Doom
#36 - 2012-08-05 11:38:21 UTC
Ooda wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Ooda wrote:
OH, and, since you haven't you seen ore prices lately - considering the logistics involved with 0.0 - you are actually making less money in 0.0 than in HS.

I couldn't answer that as I am currently moving a mining fleet back to Hi-sec. But then again it has been pointed out for years Null is useless and the risk is too variable depending on whether you are in a large alliance or small. Hell I make lots of money off ABC's but then again you wouldn't catch me dead in that hell pit called Null.


Yeah, and yet the only ones who are affected by those changes are 0.0 residents - tanking highsec rats is no problem, and having enough crystals for a high-sec belt isn't either - with this changes - both "issues" will be present in null, while highsec remains trolololol-unaffected...


Could you please explain to me in detail why you think this change is so hard on Null sec hulk users, naturally in the context of the hulk as a fleet ship?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2012-08-05 20:30:35 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
Denidil wrote:
when you nerfed the tank back down you nerfed it back down too hard.. with the current set of changes it is still too easy ot suicide a hulk.

That's the point numb nuts

you pick yield, tank, or ore bay. You can't have 2, you can only pick 1

also hulks only need a single level of skill now and all of them cost the same to build


edit:how is this a nerf? they are boosting the hulks ehp and giving it better mining. Nerf my ass



Unless something changed again recently (which is entirely possible, since its test), they dropped the Hulk's ehp due to resist drops a bit. If they have increased their mining even more, then it does indeed help balance the aboves argument about risk / reward, and I have no argument. Cool If they did not, then the price of the ship does not justify how paper thin it is for the small bonus it gives over the others (again, if the price of the materials list to make the ship have dropped to justify, my arguments are moot and I am happy with the changes all around, haven't been on in a couple of days so not sure of latest changes if any).

Again, I don't see where anyone asked for 2. May want to re read the posts. If the Hulk stays with the same tank as it has on live, many of us are ok with that. If it got a slight buff, we were ecstatic. But making a ship that big and that expensive (or did they reduce the cost for producing them?) also easier than it currently is (a t2 dessie can drop a tanked Hulk in painfully few seconds if they even land within range) doesn't make much sense.

The changes to the mack were pretty amazing. The changes to the skiff were... odd, but I am sure some pple will use them.


Good point the hulk should have at least a 50% better yield to justify it's paper thin tank. which is slightly better than before but still.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Ooda
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-08-05 22:00:53 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Ooda wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Ooda wrote:
OH, and, since you haven't you seen ore prices lately - considering the logistics involved with 0.0 - you are actually making less money in 0.0 than in HS.

I couldn't answer that as I am currently moving a mining fleet back to Hi-sec. But then again it has been pointed out for years Null is useless and the risk is too variable depending on whether you are in a large alliance or small. Hell I make lots of money off ABC's but then again you wouldn't catch me dead in that hell pit called Null.


Yeah, and yet the only ones who are affected by those changes are 0.0 residents - tanking highsec rats is no problem, and having enough crystals for a high-sec belt isn't either - with this changes - both "issues" will be present in null, while highsec remains trolololol-unaffected...


Could you please explain to me in detail why you think this change is so hard on Null sec hulk users, naturally in the context of the hulk as a fleet ship?


I haven't said that it will make mining in Hulks impossible - I just said it will be more complicated, and this only for 0.0 (I assume low-sec miners aren't present anyway, but for the sake of the argument, they are affected aswell) miners. Other than that, they serve no purpose at all. There is no benefit, and no decision involved with them.

And that's the problem I have - changing stuff without the need for it, without accomplishing nothing else than inconvenience is - akward by design.
Frying Doom
#39 - 2012-08-05 23:29:39 UTC
Ooda wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Could you please explain to me in detail why you think this change is so hard on Null sec hulk users, naturally in the context of the hulk as a fleet ship?


I haven't said that it will make mining in Hulks impossible - I just said it will be more complicated, and this only for 0.0 (I assume low-sec miners aren't present anyway, but for the sake of the argument, they are affected aswell) miners. Other than that, they serve no purpose at all. There is no benefit, and no decision involved with them.

And that's the problem I have - changing stuff without the need for it, without accomplishing nothing else than inconvenience is - akward by design.

This is what I don't get how is it more complicated you choose either yield, cargo or tank and away you go. I think the main fault here is that you still want full yield but with no draw backs. Times change, Hell I am looking forward to skiff mining Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Ooda
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-08-06 00:11:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ooda
Frying Doom wrote:
Ooda wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Could you please explain to me in detail why you think this change is so hard on Null sec hulk users, naturally in the context of the hulk as a fleet ship?


I haven't said that it will make mining in Hulks impossible - I just said it will be more complicated, and this only for 0.0 (I assume low-sec miners aren't present anyway, but for the sake of the argument, they are affected aswell) miners. Other than that, they serve no purpose at all. There is no benefit, and no decision involved with them.

And that's the problem I have - changing stuff without the need for it, without accomplishing nothing else than inconvenience is - akward by design.

This is what I don't get how is it more complicated you choose either yield, cargo or tank and away you go. I think the main fault here is that you still want full yield but with no draw backs. Times change, Hell I am looking forward to skiff mining Lol


It is slightly "more" inconvenient to use 10 logi-drones instead of 5 and to move crystals from orca - hulk - strips instead of just from the hulks cargo into the strips. This has nothing do to with a decision between yield, tank or cargo. Noone will switch from Hulk to mack or skiff because of it - thus: this changes don't serve any purpose.

to make it even more clear: it is one thing to decide between hauling with an orca or using macks over hulks which just reduces the need to haul. This is a good change, and I fully support it. This is a decision which will have to be made in the future.

And here's the point you still haven't gotten: What is the point in reducing hulks crystal space so it can't fit a full rack for 0.0 clusters? Okey, it is annoying - but if you still use hulks after the change - you will have a hauler and can store them in jetcans/Corp-hangar. This doesn't go into the decision mentioned above, just because it is not more than a little annoying.

Decisions will be made between "Do I want to mine afk (Mack), for max yield (Hulk) or for max safety (skiff)". Oh, and regardless of which one you choose, you can make it work even in 0.0. How "annoying" it is will change nothing.

So again, what's the purpose of this, besides annoying 0-0 miners?
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