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ASB is BULL.

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W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#221 - 2012-08-01 09:30:48 UTC
A linked missile kiting boat with a 100mn ab or a td will easily kill a unlinked bhaal! (The bhall has a effective range to 30km, and it is very slow, once you can kite and tank it ouside 30km its dead)


Also asbs are op! The non neut ability is way to strong (and on the argument of the inejctore beeing able to power mwds and so on your most likly scrammed so that wont help you a bit) and tehy tankw ay to much for the price!
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#222 - 2012-08-01 09:56:07 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Prevent crystal implants from affecting ancillary shield boosters. Make them unaffected by the active tanking aspect of an off grid booster.


So now they're just flat worse than T2.

-Liang

Ed: Although I have to admit you have a great idea. Maybe we can just make crystal implants not affect deadspace shield boosters too, and not affect overheat! I guess we can have snakes affect only MWD speed given from non-faction overdrive injectors and slaves only work off of regenerative plates too?

Damn, you're a balancing genius!


On the day they nerf off-grid boosting I'll have a big smile on my face. Lol
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#223 - 2012-08-01 10:21:11 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Prevent crystal implants from affecting ancillary shield boosters. Make them unaffected by the active tanking aspect of an off grid booster.


So now they're just flat worse than T2.

-Liang

Ed: Although I have to admit you have a great idea. Maybe we can just make crystal implants not affect deadspace shield boosters too, and not affect overheat! I guess we can have snakes affect only MWD speed given from non-faction overdrive injectors and slaves only work off of regenerative plates too?

Damn, you're a balancing genius!


On the day they nerf off-grid boosting I'll have a big smile on my face. Lol


Never ever nerf offgrid boosting, nerf boosting altogetehr or leave it, or you will just buff blobs and nerf small gangs!
Cpt Branko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#224 - 2012-08-01 11:02:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Branko
Cpt Branko wrote:
solo


W0lf Crendraven wrote:
linked


Cpt Branko wrote:
solo


Linked isn't solo. If it is solo, then Bhaal wins again because Bhaal solo jams missile ship with falcon alt.

But anyway, yes, you could make a specific counterfit which either includes some longrange ship with TD or damps or a mix which will assuming an engagement in belt / at celestial slowly kill it. However, no general purpose fit (bar arazu, lets say) will be able to do it. Certainly not Rattlesnake or anything of the sort, or any normal nano kiting fit, since it also happens to have quite longrange webs.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2012-08-01 11:12:12 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Cpt Branko wrote:
Cpt Branko wrote:
solo


W0lf Crendraven wrote:
linked


Cpt Branko wrote:
solo


Linked isn't solo. If it is solo, then Bhaal wins again because Bhaal solo jams missile ship with falcon alt.

But anyway, yes, you could make a specific counterfit which either includes some longrange ship with TD or damps or a mix which will assuming an engagement in belt / at celestial slowly kill it. However, no general purpose fit (bar arazu, lets say) will be able to do it. Certainly not Rattlesnake or anything of the sort, or any normal nano kiting fit, since it also happens to have quite longrange webs.


(linked is still solo imho) And any good podla drake shoudl carry a td in their cargo, these really arent specific counter fits, a naga could do it as well! A Bhallghorn isnt as scary when its totally alone! (Even a frig could probably beat it if it has a nos and capless guns and lots of time).

Hell, a linked/crystal dual asb cyclone with a nos could kill a linked bhaal!
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#226 - 2012-08-01 11:39:54 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Auxiliary shield booster on frigates is p interesting. I find frigates alot more susceptible to alpha volley these days. Art Thrashers, Rupture and Hurricanes should be making a serious come back. I find myself flying a railgun-Talos (best tracking), sniping frigates like a BOSS.

Dudes are losing dual medium auxiliary shield booster - Hawks to 280mm art Thrashers in lulz ways. I went away from dual Auxiliary shield booster frigates quickly after a few engagements (with 2 exceptions). However, I have them standard along with a shield extender on many ships with limited hit-points.


- end of transmission

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#227 - 2012-08-01 11:44:53 UTC
Did you ever think that the guy you were fighting had more sp related to his fit then you did?

It's not all about the fit. SP & pilot skill make a differance.

I also disagree with those saying you should get off Sisi.
I think you should just stay there forever. Big smile
Cpt Branko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2012-08-01 11:55:22 UTC
How do you expect that to work? Properly fit non-linked Bhaal dual webs at 39km. If we consider the Bhaalgorn might also be "solo" with loki alt, it dual webs at almost 60km. You're not going to keep it pointed without a Gallente recon, or comedy dampener fit.

And there is no way to kill it with anything like a ASB Cyclone with NOS, even if it starts at zero for which there is no reason, simply because even if we don't think how long will his charges last, he's dual webbed and cap erased every time one of the neuts land, and it has three in a realistic fit (so you're neuted fairly often). Fairly soon the Bhaal will be out of scram range. At which point the Cyclone stops doing any DPS.

I mean obviously it might be a pure T2 fit with no booster alt facing some counterfit with booster alt and it dies, but the rare few faction BS pilots which actually fly them on TQ are not that stupid.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#229 - 2012-08-01 12:46:51 UTC
One (or two) small nos is more than enough to keep a bhaal where you want it (as a small nos gives you just enough cap to run a scram), even if it starts slowboating away, it will need longer to get out of scram range than it takes the cyclone to kill it!

And a bhaal has a 30km webing range, 39 is with heat, at that point you can heat your point as well (unless you have a faction one meaning you dont have to heat at all).

Also a phoon/navy scorp/navy raven/navy phoon would all win against a bhaal on a 1v1 basis! Actually a domi would win as well as if setup correctly it can perma tank the bhaal wiht a x-lasb, while mainiting highs for nos to keep the atckle running!

Anf these arent even counter fits!
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#230 - 2012-08-01 12:47:16 UTC
Cap warfare ship looses to capless ship.

Not seeing the problem?
Cpt Branko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2012-08-01 13:44:09 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
a small nos gives you just enough cap to run a scram


This works assuming the fight starts in scram range, and assuming that you don't get hit in time and this and that. Under extreme neuting, scram shutting down for a moment or two is highly likely. Neutralizers are nasty like that.

It's one of the reasons I like my nano Tempest over faster and cheaper (although flimsier) tier 3s - the dual heavy neuts counter a whole lot of things and ignoring the advantage in buffer it has over Tier 3 BCs, it's worth taking just because of those.

That said. ASBs are a bad idea because ships taking longer to kill is bad and will always be bad. More often then not you're working not only against the guy you're killing but also against the clock. Drugs combined with the modern and utterly broken boosters make tanks too good, and the only way to get rid of them quickly is neuting.

Remove that, and the only reasonable thing to do is nanoing around, since if it IS a trap and you can't stand there for five minutes waiting for boosters to run out ,which is, by the way, much worse then buffer tanks - you can still run away. However, it leads in the end to less viable things to fly, not more.

What bugs me is that I spend time EFTing something different and then go "meh" and grab a snaked Tempest. Sometimes, for variety, a snaked arty Hurricane in hopes I will find some idiot HAC / recon / BC which will fall for the old "look a ratting Hurricane" trick. If I had large blaster skills, I would maybe bother with a snaked Talos.

Wish there were more ships which are genuinely viable instead of just being awesome on SISI, or belonging in the "awesome, yet totally cost-inefficent" cathegory.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#232 - 2012-08-01 15:29:49 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Auxiliary shield booster on frigates is p interesting. I find frigates alot more susceptible to alpha volley these days. Art Thrashers, Rupture and Hurricanes should be making a serious come back. I find myself flying a railgun-Talos (best tracking), sniping frigates like a BOSS.

Dudes are losing dual medium auxiliary shield booster - Hawks to 280mm art Thrashers in lulz ways. I went away from dual Auxiliary shield booster frigates quickly after a few engagements (with 2 exceptions). However, I have them standard along with a shield extender on many ships with limited hit-points.


- end of transmission


I think I fought you last night in my Vexor. Were the two Hawks dual ASB fit? That vexor would have normally killed at least one other hawk, in addition to the 3 frigs. You tanked my small blasters easily though. I was curious about that.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#233 - 2012-08-01 16:21:31 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

On the day they nerf off-grid boosting I'll have a big smile on my face. Lol


I made a huge :walloftext: post about why that's a really stupid thing to do. Go read it and start suggesting things which address why it's a bad idea.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#234 - 2012-08-01 23:11:10 UTC
Hrett wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Auxiliary shield booster on frigates is p interesting. I find frigates alot more susceptible to alpha volley these days. Art Thrashers, Rupture and Hurricanes should be making a serious come back. I find myself flying a railgun-Talos (best tracking), sniping frigates like a BOSS.

Dudes are losing dual medium auxiliary shield booster - Hawks to 280mm art Thrashers in lulz ways. I went away from dual Auxiliary shield booster frigates quickly after a few engagements (with 2 exceptions). However, I have them standard along with a shield extender on many ships with limited hit-points.


- end of transmission


I think I fought you last night in my Vexor. Were the two Hawks dual ASB fit? That vexor would have normally killed at least one other hawk, in addition to the 3 frigs. You tanked my small blasters easily though. I was curious about that.




hmm, seems I've been censored (eve search).

I've had some silly engagements in that harpy setup so far. Multiple frigate and destroyer versus Harpy etc.

Why you're damage didn't seem significant, might have been because you were doing primarily thermal damage. Explosive (warrior II) or Em damage would be better choices and no I wasn't using 2 auxiliary shield boosters.

Mid slots: medium shield extender, medium auxiliary shield booster, mirco warpdrive, warp scrambler

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Justin Cody
War Firm
#235 - 2012-08-02 03:04:04 UTC
Dear OP,

You faced down a fellow pirate vessel, on sisi where fights don't count. See there is this guy who only plays on sisi and has 10 titans on there. I see you believe you are a precious snowflake and don't understand that you got beat by a prepared carebear.

ASB's aren't broken, they take 60 seconds to reload (and then **** your cap if you leave them running). Bhaalgorn guns are good but not great...btw you should have no problem tracking a rattlesnake...ever. You got boned on sisi. Harden the F Up.

kthx bye

btw: your tears are delicious
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#236 - 2012-08-02 05:20:25 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
On the day they nerf off-grid boosting I'll have a big smile on my face. Lol

Nooooooooo
Stupid guys with "orbit 40km+F1" tactic will not be able to keep 100% isk efficiency if this happens.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#237 - 2012-08-02 05:57:25 UTC
Vizvig wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
On the day they nerf off-grid boosting I'll have a big smile on my face. Lol

Nooooooooo
Stupid guys with "orbit 40km+F1" tactic will not be able to keep 100% isk efficiency if this happens.


You have obviously never heard of an Arazu.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cpt Branko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#238 - 2012-08-02 07:38:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Branko
Liang Nuren wrote:

You have obviously never heard of an Arazu.

-Liang


Gangs with arazus and rapiers are still better then just N Drakes and a T3 booster sitting somewhere safe. It requires actual pilots, and weaknesses in the gang. I killed badly piloted Rapier / Arazu support often enough, because of pilot failure, and then the gang doesn't have longrange webs or disruptors anymore. Nearly duplicating that by just using boosting T3 somewhere safe is comparatively much worse.

Anyway, you could actually boost on grid. A Claymore can do it just fine in a speedy gang. Damnation can do it just fine for a tanky gang. Except... you want actual pilots in them and not alts. I remember going around in, eg. RR BS gangs with a Damnation just fine back in the day, and it added a lot to the gang at cost of losing one damage BS.

The T3 booster nonsense was a bad idea, as was boosting the already powerful gang boosts.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#239 - 2012-08-02 08:08:01 UTC
Cpt Branko wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

You have obviously never heard of an Arazu.

-Liang


Gangs with arazus and rapiers are still better then just N Drakes and a T3 booster sitting somewhere safe. It requires actual pilots, and weaknesses in the gang. I killed badly piloted Rapier / Arazu support often enough, because of pilot failure, and then the gang doesn't have longrange webs or disruptors anymore. Nearly duplicating that by just using boosting T3 somewhere safe is comparatively much worse.

Anyway, you could actually boost on grid. A Claymore can do it just fine in a speedy gang. Damnation can do it just fine for a tanky gang. Except... you want actual pilots in them and not alts. I remember going around in, eg. RR BS gangs with a Damnation just fine back in the day, and it added a lot to the gang at cost of losing one damage BS.

The T3 booster nonsense was a bad idea, as was boosting the already powerful gang boosts.


There are an incredible number of gameplay problems introduced my simply moving gang boosters on grid.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cpt Branko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#240 - 2012-08-02 10:15:52 UTC
Yes, yes.

Any ship on grid with sufficient numbers present on grid can be oneshot. That is admittedly a problem which is nontrivial. Everything else isn't a problem except in the heads of people who are used to using alt boosters... or don't care to bring a specialist ship now and then. It is more or less a basic principle that all key ships in a pvp gang should have some risk in a fight and should be actually piloted instead of relegated to alt role. Everything else is just purely bad design.

That said, knowing CCP... meh. They seem to think farming a billion+ per day using a gunless frigate is good game design, so I don't expect anything.