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A question of greed for non-pvpers
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Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#41 - 2012-08-01 01:43:17 UTC
Linna Excel wrote:
Today in chat, someone mentioned he got a really good drop. That made me think of something: for how much isk drop potential would it take for a greed to overcome a non-pvpers nature to make it tempting to blow up someone else's ship?


For the isk/hour people to figure out: how much time does it take to grind back your standings after blowing up someone else in hi sec and how much investment would it take to blow up the other ship?


EDIT: removed reference to carebears from title to remove confusion for the purpose as there are PvP carebears.


Tried and failed in UO, the bears get the loot and return to Trammel, aka High Sec.

Plus it hosed the reward model.

Plus when the bears got farmed they cried bloody murder, litterally Cool and EA gave them a bunch of blessed ****, which was the end of the end.

Luring care bears to PvP is a fools errand, better improve PvP and draw from the millions of PvPers world wide rather than a handfull of bears.

I'm an American, English is my second language...
Hiyora Akachi
Blood Alcohol Content
T O P S H E L F
#42 - 2012-08-01 01:59:15 UTC
I dunno, I think bears would do well in PvP. Bears teeth certainly can do a number on people (''') ( -,,,-) (''')
Charles Baker
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2012-08-01 02:17:19 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Charles Baker wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Charles Baker wrote:
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
And making friends is hard?


Course not, i'm just saying for New (and poor players) to have any fun/success at PVP they need an army of friends.

No you don't.


I'll take my five guys against your five guys and yours are gonna win if you can afford to be HAM drakes on field and i can only afford to put my guys in Catalysts, however if i bring 25 guys in Catalysts i'll give you a run for your money.

Like I said before, you're not obligated to fight every single battle. Fight smart. Choose targets you can handle. Don't engage Drakes in Catalystrs, etc.


Kinda hard to pick targets when every null/low entry system is filled with T3's and Orca's, takes half of my op time just finding an entrance to Pure Blind only to be blapped by Rote Kappelle two jumps later.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#44 - 2012-08-01 04:46:18 UTC
I love when people say it is a sandbox game but then try and dictate how you play. Seems a virtual universe isn't big enough.

Or as a 80's punk band used to say, "We don't swim in your toilet, please don't pee in our pool."
Suddenly Forums ForumKings
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-08-01 04:47:31 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
I love when people say it is a sandbox game but then try and dictate how you play. Seems a virtual universe isn't big enough.

Or as a 80's punk band used to say, "We don't swim in your toilet, please don't pee in our pool."


Can we get Tippia here to explain the difference between a 1 and multiplayer sandbox?
Togg Bott
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-08-01 05:31:39 UTC
security status is a currency to be saved untill that nice shiney comes along. then i decide to "Spend" some..squandered and pissed away on piddly crap isnt worth it to me.
Jamagh
Grand Violations
#47 - 2012-08-01 06:36:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jamagh
Aurelius Valentius wrote:
I don't think it's a question of greed - because most "carebears" don't make Trillions of ISK they makee enoug to get by with a narrow margin of "success" in the means of keeping the lights on there opertions.

I would assume that the the problem understanding what motivates non-pvpers - explorers, miners, WH and K-space industrials is this:

They where the kids that liked legos, sandboxes, lincoln logs, etc... they like to build models and see something come together, and to make things - the have an "engineering" mindset.

This is either not something pvp-ers probably did as kids and so have no real interest in this as players - they type may have been the non-builder type of kids to adults... the TL;DR... doesn't want alot of chit-chat, just wants to go hit the 7-11 and then drive around in a car and do whatever... the Roaming types.

Since we have both the nomadic to pychopath on one side and the building to OCD types on the ofther... I don't really see greed as a primary motivator - especially when IF you want to collect ISK or items - easy to simply sub up, drop the cash on a bunch of PLEX and buy up whatever you like - EVE isn't that expensive to make it impossible for almost everyon to do that.

I think you would simply look at it as:
Builders get pleasure from making things - power from creation.
Destroyers get pleasure from breaking things - power from destruction.



I have to say, I feel this way. I am the creator type. I enjoy making things. Working to a goal, Be that mining an entire belt, to building that ship that I want. I might not use the ship much, but it will not lessen the good feelings I have knowing that I built it. I mined the minerals to build it. I spent the time, and sometimes ISK to get those, then took the time to build it. I am not greedy, I just want to make enough to fund what projects I feel like doing.

"Please stop reopening silly rumor threads."  CCP Navigator.
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#48 - 2012-08-01 06:49:15 UTC
Jamagh wrote:
I have to say, I feel this way. I am the creator type. I enjoy making things. Working to a goal, Be that mining an entire belt, to building that ship that I want. I might not use the ship much, but it will not lessen the good feelings I have knowing that I built it. I mined the minerals to build it. I spent the time, and sometimes ISK to get those, then took the time to build it. I am not greedy, I just want to make enough to fund what projects I feel like doing.


What he said... you don't dump over half your SP (over 6 mil in my case) into non combat relevant skills if you wanna go out and shoot things... has nothing to with beeing a carebear.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#49 - 2012-08-01 07:24:58 UTC
Togg Bott wrote:
security status is a currency to be saved untill that nice shiney comes along. then i decide to "Spend" some..squandered and pissed away on piddly crap isnt worth it to me.

Yeah I agree. In fact Id regularly whore up sec status to use it for ganks and PvP activities, then when I had my "binge" of murder and mayhem Id go back to grinding sec again until the next time.

But to answer the OP for me it was a billion isk. If I ganked I wanted it to be worthwhile and not just a few hundred mil. Sometimes this meant waiting a long time for a juicy but that wait made it worth the more when it happened. Sec status is a commodity to me like everything else and like something like LP I want a good return rate for it. I earned it and now I want it to pay me something if Im forced to lose it.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Maria Sanguis
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#50 - 2012-08-01 08:18:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Maria Sanguis
Most bears typically fly mission ships, which don't carry scrams or webs (gotta have that max tank, right?). Add in the usual overblinged fittings and an unhealthy fear of concord and I doubt you'll find a single bear willing to gank another for anything less than officer loot, which carebears typically don't have acces to anyways.
Hestia Mar
Calmaretto
#51 - 2012-08-01 09:31:35 UTC
this is another one of those questions that will be answered differently by people who consider EVE 'a game' as opposed to those who consider it ' a business'.

I'm quite happy to log in for a couple of hours, run missions/do hi-sec probing/mining or whatever, and more importantly just be social with the 36 or so alliance members who are usually on line at the same time as me, all the while having around 40m ISK in my wallet. In addition, if we get dec'd I'll tool up and fight to protect what's ours.

But I have no real interest in looking to destroy someone else's ship to get any drop, and more importantly why do you seem to want to force me into that course of action...this is just a stealth "why doesn't everyone pvp wah wah wah' thread
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#52 - 2012-08-01 09:49:47 UTC
Aurelius Valentius wrote:
I don't think it's a question of greed - because most "carebears" don't make Trillions of ISK they makee enoug to get by with a narrow margin of "success" in the means of keeping the lights on there opertions.

I would assume that the the problem understanding what motivates non-pvpers - explorers, miners, WH and K-space industrials is this:

They where the kids that liked legos, sandboxes, lincoln logs, etc... they like to build models and see something come together, and to make things - the have an "engineering" mindset.

This is either not something pvp-ers probably did as kids and so have no real interest in this as players - they type may have been the non-builder type of kids to adults... the TL;DR... doesn't want alot of chit-chat, just wants to go hit the 7-11 and then drive around in a car and do whatever... the Roaming types.

Since we have both the nomadic to pychopath on one side and the building to OCD types on the ofther... I don't really see greed as a primary motivator - especially when IF you want to collect ISK or items - easy to simply sub up, drop the cash on a bunch of PLEX and buy up whatever you like - EVE isn't that expensive to make it impossible for almost everyon to do that.

I think you would simply look at it as:
Builders get pleasure from making things - power from creation.
Destroyers get plleasure from breaking things - power from destruction.


I'm astonished how narrow-minded and monochromatic this point of view really is. Let me bring some colours in:

Legos were my and my friends favourite thing as kids. We built vast and intricate cities and castles, just imagine the pile of Legos you get when you combine the blocks of 4 families. We built Technics Legos and contested the funny machines against each others. We had speedboat competitions, and land rover competitions. But the best fun we had was when we invented Lego naval warfare! We built huge pirate and navy sailboats, and had a complex rule system based on the number of blocks used to build the ship and number of guns, dictating how many shots you can fire and how much damage the ship can take before considered malfunctional or sunk.

Then we catapulted marbles onto the ships and blew them to pieces, declared a winner and went back to our secret shipyards to come up with improved ships Cool

Point is- it's not about destruction. It's about challenging yourself and others, and winning. Pew pew is crazy fun, battling against human opponents is definitely the best thing EVE has to offer.




.
Herr Hammer Draken
#53 - 2012-08-01 10:02:22 UTC
EVE has every type of player. Some will gank you just because and are just looking for a target with something valueable to come by. In other words at the wrong place at the wrong time=random chance.

Then you have the calculated players that will gank you as long as it is profitable.

Then you have the guy that is looking for a specific item and if you have it he will hunt you no matter what.

Then you have the bored guy looking for something to do and has more money than god.
If you have something shinny you die. He now has something to do.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#54 - 2012-08-01 10:07:58 UTC
Roime wrote:
Point is- it's not about destruction. It's about challenging yourself and others, and winning. Pew pew is crazy fun, battling against human opponents is definitely the best thing EVE has to offer.

Abso-*******-lutely agreed. Really, there's nothing as challenging and exciting as facing a human opponent. To call pvpers "sociopaths" or somehow developmentally-challenged is stupendously hypocritical. It's akin to calling industrials (or even carebears) real-life cowards, which is absurd. I've know ex-military industrialists who shot at people in real life, and I'm sure almost everyone would endanger their own lives to protect their families and stuff. I'd never make a generalization like that, and the fact that some people do shows that contrary to their claims, their beliefs are in no way rooted in real-life morality, or even reality.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#55 - 2012-08-01 10:22:31 UTC
EvEa Deva wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
You seem to think that all of us non PvPers (in the classic combat sense) are carebears.

Not only is this incorrect, but some PvPers are carebears too.

Carebearism has nothing to do with enthusiasm for pvp. It has everything to do with attitude and respect toward others' play styles. And before you flip this around on me by saying "well, why don't you respect the carebear play style and leave them alone?" I will go ahead and tell you that no, that's not how a combat-centric MMO works. They have to accept that we have the right to violence anyone, at any time we want. Their assumed right to perform their activities in absolute safety simply doesn't exist in the first place.


Blaa Blaa Blaa carebear Blaa Blaa Blaa PvP MMO Blaa Blaa Blaa same old s**t out of your pie hole, your the real carebear just admit it. lol 138 kills in 4 years.



The pie hole stuff made me lol

brb
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#56 - 2012-08-01 10:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
It's not as funny to me, seeing as how I got that many kills on this character in just the past three weeks, and because this is my empire war character, I actually had to work for them.

He kinda hurt my feelings. What?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
teh ubernesstrader
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2012-08-01 12:07:21 UTC
wait you can blow stuff up ???? Shocked
Hestia Mar
Calmaretto
#58 - 2012-08-01 12:41:31 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Roime wrote:
Point is- it's not about destruction. It's about challenging yourself and others, and winning. Pew pew is crazy fun, battling against human opponents is definitely the best thing EVE has to offer.

Abso-*******-lutely agreed. Really, there's nothing as challenging and exciting as facing a human opponent. To call pvpers "sociopaths" or somehow developmentally-challenged is stupendously hypocritical. It's akin to calling industrials (or even carebears) real-life cowards, which is absurd. I've know ex-military industrialists who shot at people in real life, and I'm sure almost everyone would endanger their own lives to protect their families and stuff. I'd never make a generalization like that, and the fact that some people do shows that contrary to their claims, their beliefs are in no way rooted in real-life morality, or even reality.



Total crap.

What happens is that some of us - usually referred to scathingly as carebears - play the game with the same attitudes as we have in real life (which is why we don't look to destroy other people's stuff); but some others play the game with attitudes that they would not practice in real life, and in fact their attitude would simply not be put up with in real life. These are the scammers are various other idiots we all know and learn to ignore in EVE - they don't have to be pvp'rs but often they are.

If these people accept that they are taking an active part of the RPG element of the game then fine, but of course most of them consider EVE to be an MMO, not an MMORPG. I would agree with you that competition against a human opponent is challenging and exciting - but not when they have 50m more skill points that I do, and they are backed up by a 10-man gang in HAC's and T3's.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#59 - 2012-08-01 12:52:44 UTC
So your whole argument hinges on this game being "an MMO, not an MMORPG," which is entirely irrelevant to any point you were trying to make. You're basically saying that we act like this in EVE because we act like this in real life, which is pants-on-head ********. I can't for the life of me remember the last time I killed/robbed a person outside of a videogame, or for that matter wanted to. Guess what, just because I play Mario doesn't mean that my daily life is filled with turtle-stomping, and just because I play Team Fortress 2 doesn't mean I rocket-jump all the way to the corner store every time I need milk.

Oh, and as for those barrier-to-entry whines you just mentioned:

1. Focused training can make you just as good at something at 15 million skillspoints as you would be at 65
2. Learn to fight
3. Make some friends who know how to fight

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#60 - 2012-08-01 12:55:20 UTC
Hestia Mar wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Roime wrote:
Point is- it's not about destruction. It's about challenging yourself and others, and winning. Pew pew is crazy fun, battling against human opponents is definitely the best thing EVE has to offer.

Abso-*******-lutely agreed. Really, there's nothing as challenging and exciting as facing a human opponent. To call pvpers "sociopaths" or somehow developmentally-challenged is stupendously hypocritical. It's akin to calling industrials (or even carebears) real-life cowards, which is absurd. I've know ex-military industrialists who shot at people in real life, and I'm sure almost everyone would endanger their own lives to protect their families and stuff. I'd never make a generalization like that, and the fact that some people do shows that contrary to their claims, their beliefs are in no way rooted in real-life morality, or even reality.



Total crap.

What happens is that some of us - usually referred to scathingly as carebears - play the game with the same attitudes as we have in real life (which is why we don't look to destroy other people's stuff); but some others play the game with attitudes that they would not practice in real life, and in fact their attitude would simply not be put up with in real life. These are the scammers are various other idiots we all know and learn to ignore in EVE - they don't have to be pvp'rs but often they are.

If these people accept that they are taking an active part of the RPG element of the game then fine, but of course most of them consider EVE to be an MMO, not an MMORPG. I would agree with you that competition against a human opponent is challenging and exciting - but not when they have 50m more skill points that I do, and they are backed up by a 10-man gang in HAC's and T3's.



In other words, they're treating EVE as if it were just a game, and nothing that they do really matters?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016