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ASB is BULL.

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Pipa Porto
#161 - 2012-07-31 00:33:11 UTC
Eve Chenal wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Freezehunter wrote:

Crap damage types.
Crap tracking (when lasers IRL can shoot down missiles going mach 5)
Huge cap usage.


Meeeeh.


Enormous base Damage. (2 Heatsinks on a Hellcat give you ~900dps)
Fit on wonderful ships. Ships that are designed to deal with the Cap use.
Spectacular damage projection.

The damage types aren't really a problem either, since most people patch their holes (Therm is usually the heardest to patch, btw).


If Lasers are broken, why are Hellcats and AHAX fairly wonderful fleetcomps.


These **** talkers clearly have never flown either. They also don't realize that in general, lasers work best on shield ships. A lot of people don't patch that EM hole.


And Thermal's a PITA to patch on most ships.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#162 - 2012-07-31 01:14:09 UTC
I love the way the OP's story changes as the thread goes on. First it was a 1v1, then it was a 3v1 but he killed 2, then it was JUST KIDDING GUYS LOLOLOLOL TROLLED!

Liang Nuren wrote:

LSE = 2625 Raw HP
XL ASB = 980 Raw HP/cycle
L ASB = 390 Raw HP/cycle

XL ASB > 1 LSE at 12 seconds into the fight.
L ASB > 1 LSE at 28 seconds into the fight.

1600 II = 4200 Raw HP
2x LAR II = 1600 Raw HP/Cycle (800 ea)
1 LAR > 1600 II at 90 sec into the fight (fires at the end of the cycle)
2 LAR > 1600 II at 45 sec into the fight (fires at the end of the cycle)

-Liang


LSE compares to 800mm plates, not 1600mm. Just as LAR2 compares with LSB2, and not the X-LSB2. Armor setups are given extra large plates, shield setups are given extra large reps. You should know this. ASB doesn't really compare to either setup.

800 II = 2103 Raw HP
1x LAR II = 800 Raw HP/Cycle
1 LAR > 800 II at 29.5 sec into the fight (or at 33.75sec at the end of the third cycle)
2 LAR > 800 II at 14.7 sec into the fight (or at 22.5sec at end of second cycle)

LSE II = +2625 Raw HP
1x LSB II = 240 Raw HP/Cycle
1 LSB > LSE at 40 sec into the fight
2 LSB > LSE at 20 sec into the fight

Seems like armor reps are too good doesn't it? Especially considering that an LSB will use slightly more cap to get about half the reps.

Having said that... X-LASBs *are* too good. The smaller sizes simply front-load the reps, but the X-LASB is also giving MORE total reps over 1 cycle.

L ASB > 1 LSE at 24 seconds into the fight.
XL ASB > 1 LSE at 8 seconds into the fight.
Gared Kain
Scrapyard Slacker
#163 - 2012-07-31 01:17:11 UTC
Freezehunter wrote:
Zoe Athame wrote:
Maybe I havn't been flying in the right corps, but how often do you 1v1 a bhaalgorn vs a rattlesnake?


On the test server, every 20 minutes or so.

And unless Rattle has a bullshit OP mod on it or 2, Bhaalgorn always wins.


I might be necroing a bit here.. Or saying something said a little further up. But I read this and almost died laughing...

Lemme translate this: "I'm angry as hell right now because his free ship used a iWin button that made me lose my free iWin button ship.. Why didn't my ship at always wins, win? Nerf him for beating my iWin button!"
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#164 - 2012-07-31 01:18:02 UTC
Paikis wrote:

LSE compares to 800mm plates, not 1600mm. Just as LAR2 compares with LSB2, and not the X-LSB2. Armor setups are given extra large plates, shield setups are given extra large reps. You should know this. ASB doesn't really compare to either setup.


The only interesting thing is what people actually fit, not which ones people mentally equate via some (potentially outdated) model. This means that comparing a LAR to an 800 plate is just silly talk.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#165 - 2012-07-31 01:25:43 UTC
Quaaid wrote:
Quote:
So, I just had a test fight on SiSi.

It was a 1 v 1 fight versus a RATTLESNAKE in a BHAALGORN and I LOST.

My Bhaalgorn had 250 K EHP, 850 gun + 200 drone DPS, dual web, dual NOS, one neutralizer, one tracking computer with tracking scripts, one target painter, one warp scrambler and 4 T2 pulses with COnflagration L crystals.

The other guy had a generic mission carebear **** fit like all rattlesnakes do, the typical super passive+crap boring drones and pathetic 150 dps cruise missiles setup.


You lost a Bhaal to a Mission Runner?
Were you even pointed?
Could you not cap him and run if you were pointed?
Did you not kill his drones?



Quote:
If this was a TQ fight I would have been ******* pissed for losing a Bhallgorn to a **** fit mission rattlesnake with two bullshit overpowered mods on it.


So, to be clear... you are not mad now? You just would be mad IF if was on TQ. So this is not rage posting?



No you don't understand. he brought a Bhaal. He was suppose to win.
Pipa Porto
#166 - 2012-07-31 01:27:55 UTC
Gared Kain wrote:
Freezehunter wrote:
Zoe Athame wrote:
Maybe I havn't been flying in the right corps, but how often do you 1v1 a bhaalgorn vs a rattlesnake?


On the test server, every 20 minutes or so.

And unless Rattle has a bullshit OP mod on it or 2, Bhaalgorn always wins.


I might be necroing a bit here.. Or saying something said a little further up. But I read this and almost died laughing...

Lemme translate this: "I'm angry as hell right now because his free ship used a iWin button that made me lose my free iWin button ship.. Why didn't my ship at always wins, win? Nerf him for beating my iWin button!"


Hey, the ships on SISI aren't free. They cost 100 ISK. Lol

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#167 - 2012-07-31 01:28:09 UTC
Would a 1 per ship limit fix it in your eyes Liang? They do add new life to old ships. I'd hate to see them nerfed to uselessness.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#168 - 2012-07-31 01:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Liang Nuren wrote:
Paikis wrote:

LSE compares to 800mm plates, not 1600mm. Just as LAR2 compares with LSB2, and not the X-LSB2. Armor setups are given extra large plates, shield setups are given extra large reps. You should know this. ASB doesn't really compare to either setup.


The only interesting thing is what people actually fit, not which ones people mentally equate via some (potentially outdated) model. This means that comparing a LAR to an 800 plate is just silly talk.

-Liang



And yet you use Tech 2 plates for your maths, which no one fits. We can play semantics all day long if you like?

Realistically you should be comparing ASBs to SBs, because they are completely unrelated to armour.

Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Would a 1 per ship limit fix it in your eyes Liang? They do add new life to old ships. I'd hate to see them nerfed to uselessness.


1 per ship would make them useless. They need to be balanced against the meta0 shield boosters of their size. Balanced so that you get the same amount of reps over the duration of a cycle (including reload time) as you would if you just fit a normal booster. balance this with the small boost charges that fit, and then have the larger charges increase the boost, but run out faster.

EDIT: Then add Tech 2 versions, that are balanced against the T2 normal boosters.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#169 - 2012-07-31 01:33:23 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Sorry, but your Bhaalgorn wont even scratch a properly fitted Vindicator either.

Before your neuts and damage have started to do any effects or damage on a Vindicator, then you would be dead long time ago.

It doesn't really matters on how crazy you fit a ship with officer / deadspace stuffs as long as the player behind those ships is dumb as a banana.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Eternal Error
Doomheim
#170 - 2012-07-31 02:31:01 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Would a 1 per ship limit fix it in your eyes Liang? They do add new life to old ships. I'd hate to see them nerfed to uselessness.

Artificial limits suck. They need to be nerfed to the point that they are an ALTERNATIVE to current shield boosters designed to be neut proof for as long as you have charges and not require another slot for a cap booster.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#171 - 2012-07-31 03:00:11 UTC
Current shield boosters (not ancillary) are playtoys of the rich. You need crystal implants and a Tengu alt AND drugs to make them work in the first place. Balancing something to an obsolete, niche module is borked on many levels.

One of the ideas I heard was marrying armor reppers to EANM. Two slots in one. I would like to see a solution like that applied to the normal armor reppers and shield boosters. Make them unique in their own way.

Take a Mael or Rokh, slap a LSE and X-LASB on them, and you have a high DPS platform with a decent buffer and a nice, short term burst tank. That is not worthless at all unless you're a tanking enthusiast who HAS to have a permatank. This module is not for you then and that's ok as well.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#172 - 2012-07-31 04:06:56 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Current shield boosters (not ancillary) are playtoys of the rich. You need crystal implants and a Tengu alt AND drugs to make them work in the first place. Balancing something to an obsolete, niche module is borked on many levels.


Did you know that a new XL ASB cyclone can tank 780 DPS for ~163 seconds and will also survive its reload giving it a life expectancy of 386 seconds. It will tank ~300k effective damage and during this time, it is almost wholly immune to neuts. ASBs as a whole are probably fine, but either fitting dual ASB or an oversized ASB is probably a bit too powerful.

As it was meant to be.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2012-07-31 04:23:42 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Current shield boosters (not ancillary) are playtoys of the rich. You need crystal implants and a Tengu alt AND drugs to make them work in the first place. Balancing something to an obsolete, niche module is borked on many levels.


Did you know that a new XL ASB cyclone can tank 780 DPS for ~163 seconds and will also survive its reload giving it a life expectancy of 386 seconds. It will tank ~300k effective damage and during this time, it is almost wholly immune to neuts. ASBs as a whole are probably fine, but either fitting dual ASB or an oversized ASB is probably a bit too powerful.

As it was meant to be.

-Liang



That about says it in a nutshell.

In fact, it's so crazily unbalanced that it makes me think that they have to be considering some similar armor module to balance it out. They simply can't have gotten this so badly out of whack by accident...

Combine a cap booster, shield repper, and two shield Boost amps (or whatever they are called) into a single mod. Sounds like great idea...

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#174 - 2012-07-31 04:42:31 UTC
An interesting way to put it. The tank is ~2700 DPS over ~47 seconds the XLASB operates? The common Joe sans 2-3 billion in crystal implants and a billion isk Tengu alt would probably get around a 1400 DPS tank. And of course there is the possible threat of off grid boosting getting removed.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#175 - 2012-07-31 04:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
ASBs are imbalanced because they give a tank immune to neutralizers. Everything should have a counter.

You might say that neutralizers are too good currently and I respond that this is only true on some ships (mostly the Hurricane). Single neutralizers on ships that actually have to make some sacrifices to fit one appropriate to their size class are not overpowered. ie. the "neutralizer problem" doesn't warrant adding something like the ASB.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#176 - 2012-07-31 05:54:37 UTC
Interesting numbers...

After 40 seconds (when the large and X-large ASBs run out of charges) you see the following:
LASB: 3900 repped.
LSB: 2400 repped
X-LASB: 9800 repped
X-LSB: 4800 repped.

After 100secs (at the end of reload) you see this:
LASB: 3900 repped.
LSB: 6000 repped
X-LASB: 9800 repped
X-LSB: 12000 repped.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#177 - 2012-07-31 06:02:28 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Interesting numbers...

After 40 seconds (when the large and X-large ASBs run out of charges) you see the following:
LASB: 3900 repped.
LSB: 2400 repped
X-LASB: 9800 repped
X-LSB: 4800 repped.

After 100secs (at the end of reload) you see this:
LASB: 3900 repped.
LSB: 6000 repped
X-LASB: 9800 repped
X-LSB: 12000 repped.


The truly interesting numbers come from the fittings/cap savings allowing a an "oversized" shield booster or dual ASBs in place of shield booster + cap booster. Suddenly you're making the following comparison:
LSB: 6000 repped vs XL ASB 9800 repped

or

LSB 6000 repped vs 2x L ASB 7800 repped

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#178 - 2012-07-31 06:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Paikis wrote:
Interesting numbers...

After 40 seconds (when the large and X-large ASBs run out of charges) you see the following:
LASB: 3900 repped.
LSB: 2400 repped
X-LASB: 9800 repped
X-LSB: 4800 repped.

After 100secs (at the end of reload) you see this:
LASB: 3900 repped.
LSB: 6000 repped
X-LASB: 9800 repped
X-LSB: 12000 repped.


Another bad comparison. A shield booster won't run that long without a cap booster and that's 2 modules. Try comparing two ASBs to a shield booster + cap booster combo.
Pipa Porto
#179 - 2012-07-31 06:18:38 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
ASBs are imbalanced because they give a tank immune to neutralizers. Everything should have a counter.

You might say that neutralizers are too good currently and I respond that this is only true on some ships (mostly the Hurricane). Single neutralizers on ships that actually have to make some sacrifices to fit one appropriate to their size class are not overpowered. ie. the "neutralizer problem" doesn't warrant adding something like the ASB.


A counter like say "wait 45s"?

What counter do buffer modules have besides "shoot it for a while"?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#180 - 2012-07-31 06:29:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Pipa Porto wrote:
What counter do buffer modules have besides "shoot it for a while"?


I think we've been through this already. A side by side comparison of shield extenders to ASBs without taking into account other factors is an incomplete perspective on ASBs because the amount of shield HP they can give can be drastically increased.

- Ships with a boost amount bonus (+37.5%)
- Shield boost amplifiers (+30%)
- Successfuly reloading during a fight (I know you believe this cannot happen under any circumstances but it does happen)
- Overloading the ASB (+10% boost amount, -15% cycle time)
- Blue Pill booster (+20% to +30%)

This whole discussion is incredibly stupid. Everyone in the alliance tournament chose ASBs over pure shield buffer fits even when they were restricted to 1x ASB. And here are people arguing that double ASBs are merely an equal alternative to shield extenders.