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Barge Fairy Tale

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Dave stark
#2301 - 2012-07-30 20:49:10 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
BTW how comes I can get a gank cane setup that sacrifices NOTHING (top tracking, best possible T2 turrets, 1.6s lock time, all T2 mods, 37k EHP without all V skills, high burst, 3 gyrostabs...) but if I want to fly a Mack I either forfeit 35% of yeld or have a pure sh!t zero tank and ofc all V skills?


nothing wrong with that; it's perfectly balanced.


Might be balanced but I totally feel well in my combat ships (minmatar and caldari) while the mining ships feel big smelly cartons that are just poor and lacking.

Even the Orca is a great ship, mine got like 250k EHP without sacrificing but a little cargo, it can be reconfigured to carry a lot or be very tanked or use a MWD for quick warp...

it's just the mining ships that suck really hard balls.


And even then, I prefer today's Hulk vs the new version. I'll never fly it. Total removal of any flexibility (like it had a lot to begin with!).
Nobody who is not a masochistic drone will use that piece of crap.


agreed, the orca is amazing. easily my favourite ship in the game.

i'll use the new hulk, i just doubt i'll use it in high sec.
assuming that 3% yield buff does indeed turn in to a 5% one i might use it in high sec... but with the higher ehp on the mack along with the lack of having to jetcan i'll probably go with the mack. oh right yeah, higher ehp and cargo and yield because you can't really use a max yield hulk without making yourself gank fodder...

the crown has just been passed and the rebalancing has failed somewhat imo.
Pipa Porto
#2302 - 2012-07-30 20:53:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Mining Ice in a Hulk is perfectly viable, if a little slow. And when I say ATK, I mean actually doing something, which means that your protection is not being there for him to salvo you. You warp out as he starts landing on grid, not after he starts locking you.

Anyway, have I ever said the Mack couldn't do with some love? I've only said that the New SISI mack has gotten too much love and because of that, it eclipses the New SISI Skiff.


the problem is either the exhumers will eclipse the skiff or they will still be gank fodder. there's no middle ground. it'll be unprofitable to tank and the skiff will be redundant, or it will be profitable to gank and the rebalancing has failed.


The Rebalancing is to give all 3 exhumers a role. Not to make them all not worth ganking.

Skiff: Worried about the threat of Ganking? Come here, me'boyo.
Mackinaw: No friends to drive trucks for you, but ganking's the least of your concern? Yarr, over here, me'hearty.
Hulk: Got friends and not worried about ganking? You're in the money, you're in the money.

See: Three ships, Three Roles. If you're worried about ganking but still want to fly one of the others, then you're gonna have to take active measures to protect yourself (defensive blappers, Logi, ECM, Alignment).

At the moment, on SISI, it's as follows:
Skiff: What, are you stupid? Go use a Mack.
Mackinaw: Set me off on an Ice belt and take a nap. You look tired. I'll still be here when you wake up. Probably not full, even.
Hulk: Got friends and not worried about ganking? You're in the money, you're in the money.

The Hulk's fine. The Skiff and Mack are splitting the same Role, and the Mack is better at it.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#2303 - 2012-07-30 20:56:26 UTC
Couldn't have said it better, Pipa: Old barges = good riddance.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2304 - 2012-07-30 21:02:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Pipa Porto wrote:
At the moment, on SISI, it's as follows:
Skiff: What, are you stupid? Go use a Mack.
Mackinaw: Set me off on an Ice belt and take a nap. You look tired. I'll still be here when you wake up. Probably not full, even.
Hulk: Got friends and not worried about ganking? You're in the money, you're in the money.

The Hulk's fine. The Skiff and Mack are splitting the same Role, and the Mack is better at it.


They have their roles:

Skiff: ungankable, you can just park it there and go away.

Mack: need some effort to kill but unlike on TQ, not every single monkey will be able to melt it just by sneezing in a random direction.

Hulk: lol why-ever-fly-unpracticable-cargo-and-stupidly-small-crystals-hold piece of paper?

You don't like the new Mack but I find the Hulk is in the worst state.
It does not even mine as good as today's Hulk, it got FAR less cargo, FAR less space for crystals and in order to be the min maxed ship it won't certainly be known for its tank.

Utter bad piece of garbage they made. Just because now you have to stagger lasers (and roids of course will deplete and then you just broke your "rotation") and micro manage like a Starcraft 1 Korean player does not mean it got any better nor any more fun. Ever wondered why in other games the "pure DPS, no utility classes" have few skills and easily spammed? Because they are the min max "yield" and made to do it effectively. Hulks grandiously lacks of that.

I'd have difficutly trading a today's Mack for a tomorrow's Hulk.

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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2305 - 2012-07-30 21:21:15 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
RF EMP does 3879 damage per Volley.
Suicide Catalyst has 3764 EHP vs EMP.


Only if you somehow get perfect shot. It's often only 2600-2800 per volley.
Suddenly Forums ForumKings
Doomheim
#2306 - 2012-07-30 21:22:46 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Hulk: lol why-ever-fly-unpracticable-cargo-and-stupidly-small-crystals-hold piece of paper?


There's this really cool thing called friends.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2307 - 2012-07-30 21:26:27 UTC
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Hulk: lol why-ever-fly-unpracticable-cargo-and-stupidly-small-crystals-hold piece of paper?


There's this really cool thing called friends.


Yes I'll get friends to waste their day continuously emptying the minuscule hold for me and one of them will sit in a corner like a waiter for my gracious new crystals order. Read above, min maxed things need to be streamlined else they lose much of their viability in useless micromanagement (because it does not require any skill, it's just imposed burden).

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#2308 - 2012-07-30 21:26:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Tears..tear never changes...117 pages and counting.

Hi bears
Null bears
Griefers

keep em comin.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Suddenly Forums ForumKings
Doomheim
#2309 - 2012-07-30 21:27:12 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Hulk: lol why-ever-fly-unpracticable-cargo-and-stupidly-small-crystals-hold piece of paper?


There's this really cool thing called friends.


Yes I'll get friends to waste their day continuously emptying the minuscule hold for me and one of them will sit in a corner like a waiter for my gracious new crystals order. Read above, min maxed things need to be streamlined else they lose much of their viability in useless micromanagement (because it does not require any skill, it's just imposed burden).


So you're saying that you don't have friends.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2310 - 2012-07-30 21:31:58 UTC
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Hulk: lol why-ever-fly-unpracticable-cargo-and-stupidly-small-crystals-hold piece of paper?


There's this really cool thing called friends.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJTBPdVpdMc

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2311 - 2012-07-30 21:33:30 UTC
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Hulk: lol why-ever-fly-unpracticable-cargo-and-stupidly-small-crystals-hold piece of paper?


There's this really cool thing called friends.


Yes I'll get friends to waste their day continuously emptying the minuscule hold for me and one of them will sit in a corner like a waiter for my gracious new crystals order. Read above, min maxed things need to be streamlined else they lose much of their viability in useless micromanagement (because it does not require any skill, it's just imposed burden).


So you're saying that you don't have friends.


I don't understand what "friends" would do.
Not counting that 90% of those "fleets" are really just 1 guy multi boxing 5-6 Hulks and 1 Orca.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#2312 - 2012-07-30 21:34:23 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Tears..tear never changes...117 pages and counting.

Hi bears
Null bears
Griefers

keep em comin.


Ah... can't say anything, really... still stunned by your portrait.^^

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Dave stark
#2313 - 2012-07-30 21:34:45 UTC
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Hulk: lol why-ever-fly-unpracticable-cargo-and-stupidly-small-crystals-hold piece of paper?


There's this really cool thing called friends.


Yes I'll get friends to waste their day continuously emptying the minuscule hold for me and one of them will sit in a corner like a waiter for my gracious new crystals order. Read above, min maxed things need to be streamlined else they lose much of their viability in useless micromanagement (because it does not require any skill, it's just imposed burden).


So you're saying that you don't have friends.


even if he did it wouldn't matter. if your friends have half a brain they wouldn't want to spend the day constantly going back and forth with cargo holds full of crystals in addition to the stuff they're meant to be doing etc.

the simple fact is the new tiny cargo hold means you have additional pointless logistics for no reason; there was never an issue being able to carry 30 crystals before, so why have ccp decided to make it one?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2314 - 2012-07-30 21:38:00 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Hulk: lol why-ever-fly-unpracticable-cargo-and-stupidly-small-crystals-hold piece of paper?


There's this really cool thing called friends.


Yes I'll get friends to waste their day continuously emptying the minuscule hold for me and one of them will sit in a corner like a waiter for my gracious new crystals order. Read above, min maxed things need to be streamlined else they lose much of their viability in useless micromanagement (because it does not require any skill, it's just imposed burden).


So you're saying that you don't have friends.


even if he did it wouldn't matter. if your friends have half a brain they wouldn't want to spend the day constantly going back and forth with cargo holds full of crystals in addition to the stuff they're meant to be doing etc.

the simple fact is the new tiny cargo hold means you have additional pointless logistics for no reason; there was never an issue being able to carry 30 crystals before, so why have ccp decided to make it one?


I actually have friends but because they are friends I am not going to make them my waiters and ore beotches!

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Pipa Porto
#2315 - 2012-07-30 21:40:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
RF EMP does 3879 damage per Volley.
Suicide Catalyst has 3764 EHP vs EMP.


Only if you somehow get perfect shot. It's often only 2600-2800 per volley.


That's equally true of Catalysts and ganking Hulks. Why do Catalysts get the protection of "not always a perfect shot" and Hulks don't?

Oh, and there are better Cane fits for ganking GCC Catalysts.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#2316 - 2012-07-30 21:44:38 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
At the moment, on SISI, it's as follows:
Skiff: What, are you stupid? Go use a Mack.
Mackinaw: Set me off on an Ice belt and take a nap. You look tired. I'll still be here when you wake up. Probably not full, even.
Hulk: Got friends and not worried about ganking? You're in the money, you're in the money.

The Hulk's fine. The Skiff and Mack are splitting the same Role, and the Mack is better at it.


They have their roles:

Skiff: ungankable, you can just park it there and go away.

Mack: need some effort to kill but unlike on TQ, not every single monkey will be able to melt it just by sneezing in a random direction.

Hulk: lol why-ever-fly-unpracticable-cargo-and-stupidly-small-crystals-hold piece of paper?

You don't like the new Mack but I find the Hulk is in the worst state.
It does not even mine as good as today's Hulk, it got FAR less cargo, FAR less space for crystals and in order to be the min maxed ship it won't certainly be known for its tank.

Utter bad piece of garbage they made. Just because now you have to stagger lasers (and roids of course will deplete and then you just broke your "rotation") and micro manage like a Starcraft 1 Korean player does not mean it got any better nor any more fun. Ever wondered why in other games the "pure DPS, no utility classes" have few skills and easily spammed? Because they are the min max "yield" and made to do it effectively. Hulks grandiously lacks of that.

I'd have difficutly trading a today's Mack for a tomorrow's Hulk.


The new SISI Hulk has a higher yield. 5% bonus from Exhumers instead of 3%. Even if it didn't, if you're in a fleet with hauler support (y'know, the situation it's designed for), the higher yield means it yields more than the other two. If you want a cargo hold because you don't have hauler support, use a Mackinaw (y'know, the ship designed for that situation).

Right now, on SISI, the Mack has enough EHP that it can't be profitably ganked even with MLUs (in fact, it would be fairly expensive to gank). That makes the Skiff worthless.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#2317 - 2012-07-30 21:49:17 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Why do gankers have LOLhisecgankalts?

Simple, because they are true carebears who cringe in fear at the thought a guy with kill rights could meet them while they are flying a freigther or undocking in a pimp ship to do a L4.

So they make "smart usage of game mechanics" and create LOLhisecgankalts and won't care about their sec at all.

These characters have some totally carebear characteristics:

- Cheap if any implants. No risk.
- Completely circumvent any negative consequence of being -10, including Concord (won't attack them in capsule while they go to a Concord free safe spot anyway).
- Completely circumvent any negative sec consequences (only used to reship, warp in and explode).
- Low SP, can always biomass later.
- Will literally never leave a station if not to insta warp to a safe spot, board a catalyst and then warp to a target.
- Who cares about kill rights? Nobody will see the alt for longer than 10 seconds while you kill some random, then back to safety.



What a load. While I can only speak for myself, I know for a fact that 'recycling' suicide alts is highly uncommon, and a massive waste. Why flush all that SP down the toilet for a few points of sec status?

-My main undocked all the time in a 2.5 B ISK Vargur to repair sec status, with literally dozens of extant Kill Rights.
Miners don't really scare me, watching local takes very little effort, and ECM Drones took care of the odd lolambush attempt.

-10 Buck Futz has around 500M in implants. (5%s really helped optimize the Tornado for boomeranging, no need now tho)

-'Circumvent?' What are you talking about, those are the rules, we play by them like everyone else.

-Buck Futz is around 35M SP. (with 23M in Gunnery alone) 160 Billion in damage to miners. Why biomass such a work of art?

-Why keep him in station, when you can keep him in a high-sec POS, works much better.

-You don't need kill rights to shoot a -10, ship or pod - , dum dum.

What I find funny is all the idiots who get ganked -
bring out their Drakes or Domis and start calling out to fight with your -10 alt.

Unfortunately, CCP doesn't really allow this to happen.
I'd LOVE to be able to blow up these miner's ships, but Faction Navy mechanics totally prevent it.
(ie, pirate say, lets fight! boards a Hurricane and mid fight, Navy shows up blows the **** out of you...)

Really, the entire 'Faction Navy attacks -10 ships in highsec' mechanic needs to go away in Crimewatch.
Let -10 players roam in highsec, and players can attack if they wish. Might even allow for some interesting fights.
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2318 - 2012-07-30 21:50:30 UTC
I did not read all 117 pages (as of a moment ago).

But :: HTFU.

I HTFU well before H5 cuz we were getting ganked so regularly.

Now it's your turn to HTFU.

Actually, CCP has given gankers more choices:
1) spend all your ISK fielding gank fit Machariels to take out the new mining barges just because you hate miners.
2) find the truly stupid miners who continue to deploy high yield Hulk fits in hi sec - it'll be a chance to show your excellent hunter skills.
3) go to lo sec/null and disrupt fleet mining ops all you want - gank them fleet fit Hulks - it'll be a welcome change of pace - don't use implants.

Either way, it's your choice; griefing, profits, or more griefing. The cost picture sure has changed. So HTFU. I did as a miner. Now it's your turn.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2319 - 2012-07-30 21:56:42 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
1) spend all your ISK fielding gank fit Machariels to take out the new mining barges just because you hate miners.


lmfao they'll just use more gank catalysts

and you'll be whining when your afk hulks keep

getting

ganked

because you don't know how to fit a tank, can't be bothered to actually be at your computer when you're playing a game rather than doing your laundry and expect the developers to give you everything on a silver platter

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Phill Esteen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2320 - 2012-07-30 21:58:17 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
Actually, CCP has given gankers more choices:
1) spend all your ISK fielding gank fit Machariels to take out the new mining barges just because you hate miners.

This is ridiculous.

Vindicators are much better.

– postum faex est – 

never forget