Ships & Modules

I'd have to agree that it seems a bit borked that AC's have such ease of fitting compared to the other guns.
I think cruiser blasters/ac's PG use should be rebalanced so that a full rack of mid lvl short range weapons (ion/220'mm) should fit on their gunboat BC with enough grid for MWD, 1600 plate and maybe a couple med neut or neut/injector. The largest guns (neutrons/425mm) should be 35% more PG use.
The amarr weapons should have PG adjusted the same but for heavy pulse laser. A tracking bonus to smaller guns might be in order to bring some relevance to them

This should make things a bit fairer overall, and liberate cruisers a little

how do you expect ccp to implement all this and not **** it up even more?

CCP this is the attitude you need, don't nerf, fix

This, people. This.

While I do not exactly agree with OP to a full extent, I have to say that there is an imbalance between autocannons and other short range weapons.

Autocannons are ridiculously easy to fit compared to blasters or pulse lasers.

Minmatar ships have lots of powergrid because of the high PG cost of artillery, but when fitting low cost autocannons, it leaves open an abundant amount of fittings to optimize on tank, propulsion, utility, neuts, etc.

Amarr and Gallente do not have this capability.

The strongest autocannon has lower fitting that middle range pulse lasers and blasters.

Autocannons may do less dps than both, but minmatar ships tend to have double weapon bonuses to compensate for that weakness (double rof and damage bonus).

Autocannons make up for the weaker damage for damage selection. Lasers and Hybrids cannot change their damage types.

For example we have a sleipnir going against and absolution.

The sleipnir has high EM/therm resist while the Absolution has high Exp/Kin resists.

The absolution is stuck with Em/therm and will always be shooting at the sleipnir's highest resists.

The sleipnir can use Phased Plasma or EMP and hit the weakest resists of the Absolution. Doing much more effective dps(the sleipnir already outdpses the Absolution by eft damage alone).

Autocannons gain a massive range bonus from tracking enhancers with 30% falloff bonus.

Pulse lasers have scorch resulting in a long optimal, but very short falloff. The short falloff is a downfall in that pulse will do virtually no damage beyond their optimal.

Autocannons will hit with lesser damage, but regardless hit their target beyond the range of pulse lasers. Barrage 50% falloff bonus on top of 30% tracking enhancer bonus is a big bonus.

So the range difference between Pulses and Autocannons are balanced.

Autocannons have tracking close to blasters, while having many times the range. Pulse lasers suffer from low tracking compared to other short range weapons.

Autocannons use no capacitor to fire. Blaster boats and Pulse boats are helpless when neuted.

Last but not least Projectile ammo has a bonus to tracking which is infinitely better than the cap use reduction of hybrid charges and frequency crystals.

TLDR:

Autocannons are superior to other short range guns due to:
-Low fitting costs on minmatar ships with high fitting
-Lower damage weakness negated by minmatar ships with dual weapon dps bonuses
-Selectable Damage Type to do more effective dps than lasers or blasters
-Use no capacitor to fire
-Benefits greatly from tracking enhancers of 30%+ to falloff with 50% bonus with barrage to be able to reach very far
-Very good tracking with good range
-Has ammo has boosts tracking rather than cap usage.

I believe that autocannons should be a model for short range weapons to be balanced around.

Lasers definitely needs a look at after the projectile and hybrid changes.

Blasters could also be given something as well.

this

This just sealed your fate. You're completely clueless, as evidenced here.

The reason we dont see beam lasers often is because nobody wants an armor-based sniper hac or battlecruisers. When a frig lands on you, you're too slow to leave. The zealot is still extremely popular regardless of this, mainly because of how fast it is and how many lowslots it has. Also, if you think the harbinger can't fit a harder tank with beams than the hurricane can with artillery - you need to work on your fitting skills. Artillery is preffered because it has alpha. If you dont need alpha, beam lasers all the way.

Saying scorch is just "good" is also a massive understatement. Enjoy your 100% dps at point range wherein that cane is struggling to get 50%.

Minmatar does NOT have superior frigates. The wolf and jaguar are both very strong - slightly stronger than the retribution, whereas the new vengeance can definitely compete. The punisher outdoes the rifter in brawling, only being worse at catching inties due to the rifter ability to fit a shield tank. The slicer is the far superior frigate in the hands of a good pilot, destroying the firetail no contest in every role. The sentinel wrecks the Hyena at every turn. The crusader/malediction are superior to the claw/stiletto, the only exception being the stilettos large amount of midslots.

Minmatar does NOT have superior cruisers. The rupture may outclass the omen - but the arbitrator is far more useful than anything the minmatar can field. The zealot is easily just as good as the vagabond, if not better in most situations, and the sac is so specialized that you cant even really compare it. The zealot outdoes the Muninn and the Vaga - with the exception of volley damage. The loki is likely better than the legion in most scenarios, but far less effective in armor fleets. Saying the curse isn't more useful than the rapier/huginn is also borderline autistic, whilst the pilgrim is again extremely specialized.

Destroyers I will concede, the fact of the matter is the coercer cannot match up to the thrasher, and sabre is alone in it's dominance.

Battlecruisers only SLIGHTLY favor the minmatar. The harbinger is only slightly worse than the hurricane due to the cane's versatility. It can compete, but not best other ships in the armor role, and can also fly with a shield tank. The harbinger can also do this, but not as well. The cyclone is quite a bit better than the prophecy, but only in small gang scenarios where it's tank can be utilized. The absolution is competitive and far better than the sleipner in a fleet role, whilst the damnation can hang around a fight - the claymore cannot. The tornado is only better than the oracle due to it's alpha, which just happens to be catching stupid people by surprise again and again. Not the fault of the devs - the fault of the players.

Saying that battleships are equal is so incredibly wrong that it's not even quantifiable. The geddon destroys all of the minmatar battleships. The abaddon destroys all of the minmatar battleships. The apoc destroy all of the minmatar battleships. The redeemer destroys the panther. Amarr can tank far harder, do more or equal damage, have incredible range, even greater sniping power (aside from alpha). Your statement is not even on the edge of being reasonable.


As a last note, saying the amarr have "better capitals" is a massive understatement. The nidhoggur can't even come CLOSE to the archon in ANY scenario that doesnt include repping pos shields. Don't even try it. The archon outperforms it everywhere. The nag is not even on the same playing field. The hel is godawful, and not even worth spending half the isk it currently costs.

Sorry, no. You can't just always buff things. You get power creep and that causes its own problems.

Right now the situation is why fly a HAC when you can get similar or better and cheaper performance with the current BCs, especially the Drake and Hurricane. If we don't have a nerf to BCs and instead buff the other 6 BCs to similar usage and power of Drake and Hurricane what do you propose to do with HACs? Buff them? Then what happens to BSs when HACs begin to munch on every BS (and BC) in game? Buff BSs? . . .

I am hopeful that from the hints Ytterbium and other devs have dropped the Drake and to a lesser extent the Cane are in for a trim, with tiericide also removing the distinction between the current tier 1s and tier 2s (tier 3s being a differnt animal due to differnt weapon size usage). If tier 1s get another slot(s) to equate with current tier 2 slots I suspect the balancing will also include a reduction in overall BC hp to compensate for the slot buffs. Other prized BC anomalies could be in for alteration as well. The devs had made statements acknowledging that passive shield tanking (regen in pve) is out of balance. Some of these things could be done now imo.

Regardless, the rebalancing team has me a bit worried in that they are buffing frigs and destroyers, which is fine conceptually, but they appear to be missing the extent that players can exagerate those buffs (sniper corms, combining op anc shield boosters with shield tanking frigs, etc). Frigs and Cruisers needed buffs. Hopefully these won't be overdone and will get revisited if they are. But I think those of you salivating at the current buffs to frgis and soon cruisers will be disappointed when that trend gets reversed or not applied to BCs.

Funny cos i remember when CCP nerfed HACs (nano nerf) to stop them munching BS, ever since the whole ship class has been in a slow spiral till now the only ones you see regularly are the vaga (which is still fast) and the zealot. I would love the days of the BS killer solo HAC to return. I could dust off the old nano-ishtar fit :).

Oh and a slight note, when a t2 cruiser costs more than a BS why shouldn't it be able to kill one? What is wrong with that principle?

As the first person to suggest buffs vs nerf in this thread I feel it my duty to point out that I actually suggested CCP try to improve the gallente and amarr BC to try and acheive more parity between races rather than smack down the cane and drake because people whine when a ship becomes good. In fact buffing things will enforce the same changes as nerfing but will do so in a more positive way.

Which statement make you feel happier? Your cane is going to become worse or Your Harby is going to get even better.

Would CCP have needed to nerf Falcons for example if they had given ships with long range weapons (e.g Rokh, apoc, muninn, Zealot) a boost in sensor strength?

You can all cry nerf until you're blue in the face however BC's are a great gap between the cruiser class and battleship class.

You can sit there for days arguing which is better etc.. but I'll just say one thing.

Depends on how you fit them.

That is all.