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Initial mining barge changes are on the test server

Author
Gaius Clabbacus
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2012-07-24 17:55:55 UTC
Denidil wrote:

Cargo/Ore bay capacities
Hulk: 500/7500
Mackinaw: 350/25000 (+10% ore hold per mining barge skill level)
Skiff: 350 / 17500

Covetor: 500/7000
Retriver: 350/20000 (+10% ore hold per mining barge skill level)
Procurer: 350/15000


Cargo bays seem to be a bit small to hold various mining crystals. Although the Mack and Skiff have less turrets, so need to carry fewer crystals.
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2012-07-24 19:11:54 UTC
Anyone know how the Ice Mining skill will be applied now that the ice mining function is set by a rig? Will the Ice Mining skill apply tp the rig? How's this gonna work?
Athos Maulerant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2012-07-24 19:37:04 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
Anyone know how the Ice Mining skill will be applied now that the ice mining function is set by a rig? Will the Ice Mining skill apply tp the rig? How's this gonna work?


From what I can tell (and my math skills are horrendous), the Mack and Skiff will both achieve 30 cycles/hr (counting ship roles and skill bonuses but not the rigs). That is down a bit for the Mack which makes ice mining an unprofitable venture. Either those rigs better kick some serious ass or ice prices are going to go even higher.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2012-07-25 01:48:36 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Pisov viet wrote:
Your regular miner, that poor **** who was paying attention, who had friends with him, who knew what the hell he was doing, will be left untouched by these changes. His hulk's yield will remain the same, and even going into big scary low/nullsec wont improve his condition much. In the current (and, apparently, future) state, he's still a poor **** who play a role so un-challenging that a bot can fill it, and be just as efficient as he is.


By that measure, Ratters and Mission runners have it even worse. A bot can do their role more efficiently than they can, not just as efficiently.



A bot could easily handle what a lot of people consider pvp too. Fleet fights, gate camps, and suicide ganking don't exactly take a pro gamer to accomplish.
Attica
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2012-07-25 02:54:32 UTC
So if I have a Hulk with 2 MLU II's and my alt flying Itty 5 with 38K cargo who is hauling, will that still give me more ore per hour than the lower exhumers?

Pirate tears are yummier than carebear tears for they come from the deeper well of anguish.

Fluffy Sheep
Contra Operative Knights
#126 - 2012-07-25 03:11:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Fluffy Sheep
If there are new rigs for mining, will there be some significant retraining needed to use them? If so, should players be getting a neural remap or something to help those who happen to have all their stats in completely the wrong area? Having previously trained everything they thought they needed in the mining industry then remapped for other things...
Pipa Porto
#127 - 2012-07-25 03:24:35 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Pisov viet wrote:
Your regular miner, that poor **** who was paying attention, who had friends with him, who knew what the hell he was doing, will be left untouched by these changes. His hulk's yield will remain the same, and even going into big scary low/nullsec wont improve his condition much. In the current (and, apparently, future) state, he's still a poor **** who play a role so un-challenging that a bot can fill it, and be just as efficient as he is.


By that measure, Ratters and Mission runners have it even worse. A bot can do their role more efficiently than they can, not just as efficiently.



A bot could easily handle what a lot of people consider pvp too. Fleet fights, gate camps, and suicide ganking don't exactly take a pro gamer to accomplish.


That's not really on point, but they really couldn't be botted well. PVP has elements of unpredictability that just don't exist in PVE. Computers don't deal with the unpredictable nearly as well as humans do. They can't improvise for something unplanned. That's not a problem with PVE because there's nothing unpredictable about it, and you can plan for all possible human interaction (neut in Local in null, canflipper in High, probes on DScan in WH -> Dock/POS).

Fleets:
First, Text to Speech isn't that good at the moment.
Second, a Bot wouldn't likely be able to lose a fight gracefully (E&E, etc). A Bot fleet would be a win-or-whelp fleet.
Third, knowing when it's worth using Cap Boosters, when it's safe to pulse your MWD (wrong time and you're stranded trying to align), what to do if the FC goes down, etc. (How do you think a Bot would handle "Target Tackle").

Suicide Ganking requires finding likely targets, which I suppose you could bot, but it would take a fair bit more complicated bot than a PVE one.

Gate Camping really requires a good decloaker if you want to be good at it, which requires manual piloting, which I doubt a bot can do well. A botted gate camp also probably couldn't identify bait and when (and how) to run away.

Anyway, even if botting was efficient at running PVP, that would reinforce my point. A Mining bot is not more efficient at mining than a Human. A mission/ratting bot is more efficient at missioning/ratting than a Human. Therefor, in competition with bots, Miners have a leg up compared to missioners/ratters.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Infinite Force
#128 - 2012-07-25 03:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinite Force
Fluffy Sheep wrote:
If there are new rigs for mining, will there be some significant retraining needed to use them? If so, should players be getting a neural remap or something to help those who happen to have all their stats in completely the wrong area? Having previously trained everything they thought they needed in the mining industry then remapped for other things...

New rigs -- as they are on SiSi at the time of this posting - which means everything could change:

Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator I:
Description:
-This ship modification is designed to reduce the duration of ice harvester cycles.
-It works solely on Mining barges and Exhumers.
-Only one mining or ice harvesting rig can be fitted at a time.

Attributes: Cycle Time Bonus: -12%

Prereqs: Jury Rigging 1 / Mechanics 3


Medium Mercoxit Mining Crystal Optimization I:
This ship modification is designed to increase the yield modifier of those modules using Mercoxit mining crystals.
It works solely on Mining barges and Exhumers.
Only one mining or ice harvesting rig can be fitted at a time.

Attributes: Mining Amount Bonus: +16%

Prereqs: Jury Rigging 1 / Mechanics 3


Both rigs are in the Electronics sub-category.

There will be no 'retraining' necessary.

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Pipa Porto
#129 - 2012-07-25 03:26:25 UTC
Fluffy Sheep wrote:
If there are new rigs for mining, will there be some significant retraining needed to use them? If so, should players be getting a neural remap or something to help those who happen to have all their stats in completely the wrong area? Having previously trained everything they thought they needed in the mining industry then remapped for other things...


L5 in a rigging skill takes like a week and a half, and L4 is all you need for T2 rigs.

They're probably gonna stuff it into an existing rig category.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Pipa Porto
#130 - 2012-07-25 03:27:33 UTC
Attica wrote:
So if I have a Hulk with 2 MLU II's and my alt flying Itty 5 with 38K cargo who is hauling, will that still give me more ore per hour than the lower exhumers?


Yep.

The Mack/Skiff with 2 MLUIIs will be mining about the same as a Hulk with 0 MLUs.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Fluffy Sheep
Contra Operative Knights
#131 - 2012-07-25 03:33:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Fluffy Sheep
Cheers.

Unless the manufacturing costs of ships decreases, I can see prices spiking some what as demand increases. Not only because of more people or alts joining the mining profession, but also because every miner will want a couple of their preferd ship type each with a different rig to save regularly destroying them to change types?

Would be nice to have a specialized ore rig that maybe has the ability to accept either the ice or mercoxit module that can be removed without destruction ;P
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#132 - 2012-07-25 03:57:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Denidil wrote:
i was able to get the tanking attributes of the hulk modified - and here is the fit comparison for the following fit [which requires a CPU implant]

[Hulk, Highsec Gank proof]

EFT stats (current): 30,235 EHP (20034 shield / 2292 armor / 7909 structure), 107 dps shield tank [passive recharge],
Pyfa (test server tank): 42,638 [29814 shield / 5010 armor / 7812 structure), 99.382 dps shield tank [passive recharge]

How does that compare to my current fit (requires EG-604 though EG-605 is cheaper as the former is from CONCORD, but not needed with t1 strips):

EFT stats (current): 32,576 EHP (22779 shield / 2265 armor / 7533 structure), 121 DPS shield tank [passive recharge]

[Hulk, EHP]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Internal Force Field Array I

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5
Mining Drone II x5


I haven't yet gotten any ship to mine as much or more than a Hulk on Sisi (built-in +30% yield), but it is more tedious to test when I have to buy and swap modules.
Industrializata
Imperial Logistics And Research
#133 - 2012-07-25 04:39:15 UTC
while now getting with a mack 4 cubes of ice @ 191 seconds ( orca boosted ) , anyone know what would be the new output considering Ice Harvesting Upgrades and the rig?

Thanks in advance!
Brego Tralowski
Tralowski Independent Traders.
#134 - 2012-07-25 05:42:31 UTC
Looks like i'll be using the Machinaw after the update Big smile

Supplying Quality goods to the masses.

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Dominika Brumarova
Mission Patrol Elite High Sec
#135 - 2012-07-25 07:42:04 UTC
Pisov viet wrote:
Some of the changes are good (Procurer/Skiff's HP, Retriever/Mackinaw's cargo hold, the mining yield buff for both ship lines and the mercoxit and Ice rigs). But the unilateral buff of mining barge and exhumers EHP is a terrible thing to do.

Not only is it devaluating the Skiff buff (why bother with it when a hulk can easily reach over 40k EHP?), but it is also making the life of afk-miners and bots much easier, all while not adressing the structural issues of the mining profession: boring, poor and lacking improvement.

What the game need is not brick-tanked barge able to survive to multiple suicide tornadoes. These always existed, they're battleships (and now, skiffs). a 25000m3 ore hold is an amusing gimmick, but ultimately reward peoples who play eve afk.

Your regular miner, that poor **** who was paying attention, who had friends with him, who knew what the hell he was doing, will be left untouched by these changes. His hulk's yield will remain the same, and even going into big scary low/nullsec wont improve his condition much. In the current (and, apparently, future) state, he's still a poor **** who play a role so un-challenging that a bot can fill it, and be just as efficient as he is.

Mining dont need a 100k EHP mining barge, nor a barge able to mine 30 minutes without requiring a single click, mining need a ship, or a mechanism, that makes a human better than a script.



The best post in whole topic. Pure truth!
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#136 - 2012-07-25 08:53:49 UTC
Dominika Brumarova wrote:
The best post in whole topic. Pure truth!


Because Hulk needs 100k m3 cargohold and huge yield boost?
Kiwis23
Kiwis Corp
#137 - 2012-07-25 09:10:29 UTC
Question to all those who curse AFK mining - Have you EVER tried to mine for couple hours not-AFK?

AND beeing so low income source, mining MUST be made AFK activity, because nobody will do it other way.

1. I would love to do mining without AFK, but it's too borring.
2. If you make it so I have to sit constantly like running missions - make adequate pay. Nobody wants to actively mine for 1/5th of mission runners pay.
3. High-sec is probably the only place AFK mining occurs, and not counting ice belts it's not that much of afk mining anyway - roids pops really fast...

P.S.
Why everybody in every game wants main resource gatherers nerfed to oblivion and DPS chars to get all the glory and money?
What if I LIKE crunching rocks, but can't because of absurdicly low pay rate?
Pipa Porto
#138 - 2012-07-25 09:25:38 UTC
Kiwis23 wrote:
Question to all those who curse AFK mining - Have you EVER tried to mine for couple hours not-AFK?

AND beeing so low income source, mining MUST be made AFK activity, because nobody will do it other way.

1. I would love to do mining without AFK, but it's too borring.
2. If you make it so I have to sit constantly like running missions - make adequate pay. Nobody wants to actively mine for 1/5th of mission runners pay.
3. High-sec is probably the only place AFK mining occurs, and not counting ice belts it's not that much of afk mining anyway - roids pops really fast...

P.S.
Why everybody in every game wants main resource gatherers nerfed to oblivion and DPS chars to get all the glory and money?
What if I LIKE crunching rocks, but can't because of absurdicly low pay rate?


If it weren't an AFK activity, fewer people would do it (maybe), prices would rise(maybe), and Income would rise to compensate.

The maybes are if the people currently doing it AFK quit in any significant numbers.

The Pay is now entirely driven by miners. Your wage is determined by the aggregate supply the miners produce and the aggregate demand of manufacturing. CCP can't do anything more to change miner's income (more yield would suppress prices, resulting in the same income but with more hauling to do).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#139 - 2012-07-25 09:26:39 UTC
Attica wrote:
So if I have a Hulk with 2 MLU II's and my alt flying Itty 5 with 38K cargo who is hauling, will that still give me more ore per hour than the lower exhumers?



Yes.

/Or/ you could have 2 alts, both in Retrievers/Macks for a higher yield (you'll lose a couple of cycles hauling every 10 cycles or so, but it should still turn out higher.)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Dave stark
#140 - 2012-07-25 09:28:44 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Attica wrote:
So if I have a Hulk with 2 MLU II's and my alt flying Itty 5 with 38K cargo who is hauling, will that still give me more ore per hour than the lower exhumers?



Yes.

/Or/ you could have 2 alts, both in Retrievers/Macks for a higher yield (you'll lose a couple of cycles hauling every 10 cycles or so, but it should still turn out higher.)


this, i'm considering going from hulk/orca setup to mack/mack setup.