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Mission Difficulty Not in Line with Mission Level (Cut-Throat Competition)

Author
Uthgaard
Because ISK
#1 - 2012-07-22 01:01:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Uthgaard
The Level 3 Mission Cut-Throat Competition has a difficulty level that is extremely disproportionate to all other Level 3 Missions. Even level 3 missions that provide a warning that there will be additional difficulty due to various factors,do not approach the level of difficulty present in this mission. This is like a Level 4 mission in Level 3 clothing. I would strongly advise moving it to the level 4 pool, or changing the way the waves are triggered or the ships that are present.

When an individual is able to complete Level 3 Missions of any type, except for one, and the one that cannot be completed is so difficult that even shields cannot be broken before needing to warp out, that is an indication that there is a problem with the design.

I have 7m sp and am in a myrmidon, and invested 20m into compensatory modules to overcome the challenges posed by this mission and was still not able to complete it. So I recruited a friend with 37m sp in a raven navy issue to help. He initially assumed it was just me being a noob and overexaggerating the difficulty, until he arrived and his opinion quickly changed. Here was the dialogue that transpired:

Quote:
[ 2012.07.22 00:02:01 ] Uthgaard > how are you even supposed to do missions with crap like this
[ 2012.07.22 00:02:22 ] Uthgaard > just move along assuming you can do l3 missions, no way to tell one is going to be complete $$$$**** until you've already accepted it
[ 2012.07.22 00:02:34 ] Uthgaard > and by that point you're forced to either fail it and take a faction hit or beg for help
[ 2012.07.22 00:02:56 ] Xorsis > well what i did
[ 2012.07.22 00:02:57 ] Uthgaard > it's kinda ******** imo
[ 2012.07.22 00:03:07 ] Xorsis > was send drones on whatever is jamming, drones will stay on target even if you are jammed
[ 2012.07.22 00:03:20 ] Uthgaard > my drones are getting blown the $$$$ up
[ 2012.07.22 00:03:25 ] Xorsis > lol
[ 2012.07.22 00:03:27 ] Uthgaard > i have to warp out before i can kill anything
[ 2012.07.22 00:03:36 ] Uthgaard > i cant even get past anything's shield before needing to warp out
[ 2012.07.22 00:03:45 ] Uthgaard > this is like an l4 designated as an l3
[ 2012.07.22 00:04:13 ] Uthgaard > they have ships in the back that dont target me, and instead wait for my drones and then target them
[ 2012.07.22 00:04:29 ] Xorsis > lol
[ 2012.07.22 00:04:31 ] Xorsis > thats $$$$ty
[ 2012.07.22 00:04:38 ] Xorsis > they a pretty smart ai gotta admit
[ 2012.07.22 00:04:50 ] Uthgaard > it's pretty $$$$ing stupid to put it in an l3 pool

[2012.07.22 00:18:05 ] Xorsis > this a storyline mission?
[ 2012.07.22 00:18:08 ] Uthgaard > no
[ 2012.07.22 00:18:13 ] Uthgaard > this is a plain old level 3 mission
[ 2012.07.22 00:18:19 ] Uthgaard > which is why it's such bull$$$$
[ 2012.07.22 00:18:30 ] Uthgaard > there isnt even a warning that says 'this is hard'
[ 2012.07.22 00:18:41 ] Uthgaard > its just supposed to be an average level 3 mission
[ 2012.07.22 00:19:00 ] Xorsis > yeah this pretty rough for a level 3 lol
[ 2012.07.22 00:19:40 ] Xorsis > kill the specialists if you can
[ 2012.07.22 00:19:45 ] Xorsis > i cant do anything lol im perma jammed
[ 2012.07.22 00:19:51 ] Uthgaard > hold on
[ 2012.07.22 00:19:55 ] Xorsis > there we go
[ 2012.07.22 00:20:00 ] Uthgaard > ill try to take them out
[ 2012.07.22 00:21:59 ] Xorsis > these are rooks lol
[ 2012.07.22 00:22:06 ] Xorsis > t2 caldari cruiser ecm ships
[ 2012.07.22 00:22:11 ] Xorsis > super high resists
[ 2012.07.22 00:22:19 ] Xorsis > they are worth like 100 mil each
[ 2012.07.22 00:22:24 ] Uthgaard > have to warp out
[ 2012.07.22 00:22:25 ] Xorsis > should not be in a level 3 lol
[ 2012.07.22 00:22:36 ] Uthgaard > down to structure
[ 2012.07.22 00:22:57 ] Uthgaard > yeah well now you know why this mission $$$$es me off
[ 2012.07.22 00:23:35 ] Xorsis > might not be any bc or bs, but def level 4 quality
[ 2012.07.22 00:25:53 ] Xorsis > when you get to level 4 missions you will see the same thing very rarely
[ 2012.07.22 00:26:52 ] Xorsis > i have 27,000 shields
[ 2012.07.22 00:26:56 ] Xorsis > and high resists
[ 2012.07.22 00:26:59 ] Xorsis > and a shield booster
[ 2012.07.22 00:27:04 ] Xorsis > and i went to like 35% shields lol
[ 2012.07.22 00:27:31 ] Xorsis > level 4's dont even do that much dps to me on avg
[ 2012.07.22 00:27:39 ] Uthgaard > that was while i was soaking some of the damage, i got down to structure with 2 max named armor reps and a Prototype Energized Explosive Membrane
[ 2012.07.22 00:27:56 ] Uthgaard > and this is a myrmidon so it has a boost to armor rep amount
[ 2012.07.22 00:31:25 ] Uthgaard > this was bull$$$$
[ 2012.07.22 00:31:48 ] Xorsis > yeah like you said if anything should have some kind of warning
[ 2012.07.22 00:32:03 ] Xorsis > there are mission that say "bring friends" etc dont know what they were thinking
[ 2012.07.22 00:33:34 ] Uthgaard > i mean i was doing l3s with warning labels in a $$$$fit vexor
[ 2012.07.22 00:33:53 ] Uthgaard > this one was impossible in a myrmidon with exactly the right fit
[ 2012.07.22 00:40:05 ] Uthgaard > so you think that should be an l4?
[ 2012.07.22 00:40:57 ] Xorsis > yeah
[ 2012.07.22 00:41:07 ] Xorsis > it was harder than some level 4's ive done
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-07-22 01:17:56 UTC
Some missions are hard, some are really easy. That there is a very challenging L3 is not a suprise CCP wants you to call for friends as much as possible, this is an MMORG,

Some L4 missions are beatable in a bc, ive done some in an AF, usually i use a marauder. A few i need the full extent of what the marauder provides in rep amount, others i never break shields. (i use a kronos so its an armor tank)

Your friend walked into a mission that might have killed his CNR, but thats ok, why should every mission pass without difficulty? why should it be easy mode all the time.

I strongly support the random pve ship losses

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Uthgaard
Because ISK
#3 - 2012-07-22 01:22:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Uthgaard
Thanks for replying. In the future, take the time to ensure you read everything correctly. It will prevent your embarrassment.

  • This mission does not state bring friends.
  • This mission does not state that there is anything remotely more challenging about it.
  • This mission has no features in its description to distinguish its increased difficulty, while missions that do state that there is additional difficulty are easier than this mission.
  • This mission is harder than most L4s.
  • This mission's difficulty is outside the level of random deviation, and is so disproportionate that it is likely a mislabeled L4.
  • No ship was lost.
  • My interest is in this feedback reaching the development staff.
  • My interest is not in what random forum trolls "strongly support".


Hopefully this summary in bullet point format is more palatable to your level of reading comprehension.

Reply safe
o/
Saul Elsyn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-07-22 04:40:58 UTC
Checked it on EVE-Survival... it's a bit DPS heavy for a level 3 with 300+ damage at some points but, no battleships spawn ergo yeah, it's a level 3.

A hard level 3. Level 4s can be that easy sometimes, but usually they're tougher then that since they spawn BS. I personally think the missions overall need looked at to make them a bit less of a stroll for most capsuleers. I'd like smaller spawns, higher damage, higher bounties, and more factional variability in tactics.

Good luck getting that.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#5 - 2012-07-22 06:43:52 UTC
What ship are you flying and how is it fitted.....

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#6 - 2012-07-22 07:08:34 UTC
Why do I get the feeling we're looking at a Ship that is not tanked correctly?

Also: Guristas jam... if you want to not be jammed, move out of Caldari space.
Glitch Online
License To Steal
#7 - 2012-07-22 07:30:14 UTC
Uthgaard wrote:


  • This mission does not state bring friends.
  • This mission does not state that there is anything remotely more challenging about it.



Would you also like CCP to dictate exactly how to finish the mission?

You may want to start thinking on your own, figuring new ways around new problems is half the fun.
Higgs Maken
The Metal Box Company
#8 - 2012-07-22 15:22:14 UTC
Myrmidon like my Gila is a drone ship, thus why do you care about jams? I complete this mission just fine, and I have about the same skill point as you. My Gila is a standard T2 passive shield fit, with about 10k shield and 66% kin resist, and it's not optimized for this mission (I'm using T2 adaptive invulnerability field instead of mission specific kinetic field)! Each ship is hitting me for 60 kin damage it's painful but tankable. If I can do it, you can too.
RangerGord
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#9 - 2012-07-22 16:01:44 UTC
they don't have to warn you its dangerous... thats half the fun and excitement

me and my bro answered a guys call for help the other day, he accidentally broke the missions aggro and it nuked his raven, so my bro fit up his dual rep ridiculous best tank hyper he had, warped to help the guy (it was 1 system over), and before i even got to the stargate, he was already about to hit structure and warping out... so i turned around and took my gila back to station and brought my guardian in for a fresh start, soon as we landed with my 5 reps and both his local reps he was just barely holding (and he hit 25% armor before i could land the first rep)

there is always more excitement when things get mixed up and you don't get a warning about the danger

thats also one reason i like Scarlet, you never know what you are going to get until you land, and even then between spawns it can change on you

but overall i do think missions need to be changed, made a little tougher and at the same time removing the ridiculous over-fit npc ships and replacing them with fewer but tougher player builds (that also abide by the fitting rules of the game itself... 9 rail ravens that also shoot a torp and a defender missle are absurd)
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-07-22 17:09:56 UTC
Uthgaard wrote:
Thanks for replying. In the future, take the time to ensure you read everything correctly. It will prevent your embarrassment.

  • This mission does not state bring friends.
  • This mission does not state that there is anything remotely more challenging about it.
  • This mission has no features in its description to distinguish its increased difficulty, while missions that do state that there is additional difficulty are easier than this mission.
  • This mission is harder than most L4s.
  • This mission's difficulty is outside the level of random deviation, and is so disproportionate that it is likely a mislabeled L4.
  • No ship was lost.
  • My interest is in this feedback reaching the development staff.
  • My interest is not in what random forum trolls "strongly support".


Hopefully this summary in bullet point format is more palatable to your level of reading comprehension.

Reply safe
o/


ouch, you sound a bit hurt that i didn't instantly support your idea. It wasn't a troll response, that i posted. but i guess you could take it that way. its fine.

as to your bullet points, In response to

-> 1,2 missions are supposed to state bring friends? that it is challenging? really? you need that much hand holding for pve? i guess there are other issues at work here then.

-> 3,4,5 The fact that it is more challenging then a standard l4 shouldn't be any surprise, some of them (the l3 missions) will be outliers on the bell curve of mission difficulties. there's a l2 with a 40+ bs fleet in it. these things happen. and its good.

-> 6 the fact that no ship was lost this time, doesn't matter, the fact that it is possible that some one else will lose a ship is the point. when everything is laid out on a road map, you lose something in a game.

->7 The actual feedback staff tend to stay away from these forums. use petitions and see what they say about that mission. Im betting on something like "working as intended noob"

->8 you sound hurt, and that only attracts trolls.

You did not post any fitting (for either yourself in the myrm or the CNR) and said nothing other then one person in game said it ought to be L4.

The fact that you had to ask for help, either from people that you knew or from local, again like i said in the first post, CCP wants you to fleet up. this is a MMORPG, Play with others!

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#11 - 2012-07-22 17:32:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Corina Jarr
Looking at it it doesn't seem that difficult. I am pretty sure my old Maller setup could tank the mission, though might need to switch to a BC.

Key thing is, kill the jammers. The Elite cruisers are hard to kill.

Also once the ships target you, as long as you stay in range they will not target your drones, so in between jamming cycles, you can send you drones onto the Rooks.

Also, never trigger until after you take care of jammers and the like.

Fake Edit: got this mission just now, doing it in a Vengence, lets see.Smile

Real Edit: mission is nearly finished.
For the most part, tanking it in an AF is easy. Could see it being difficult for someone in slower and larger (and sort of weaker) ships.
Hardest part was waiting for the jam cycles to end on those Rooks. So, boring.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#12 - 2012-07-23 16:59:58 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Looking at it it doesn't seem that difficult. I am pretty sure my old Maller setup could tank the mission, though might need to switch to a BC.

Key thing is, kill the jammers. The Elite cruisers are hard to kill.

Also once the ships target you, as long as you stay in range they will not target your drones, so in between jamming cycles, you can send you drones onto the Rooks.

Also, never trigger until after you take care of jammers and the like.

Fake Edit: got this mission just now, doing it in a Vengence, lets see.Smile

Real Edit: mission is nearly finished.
For the most part, tanking it in an AF is easy. Could see it being difficult for someone in slower and larger (and sort of weaker) ships.
Hardest part was waiting for the jam cycles to end on those Rooks. So, boring.


I did that one in my Hawk (and 4 standard launchers) and approached those evil Guristas and hit F1 - wait - boom - apprach next with Scourge FOF light missile - dock - get Harpy - mission complete Roll

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Walter Heisenburg
#13 - 2012-08-10 15:10:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Walter Heisenburg
If you don't have drones or friends, don't do this mission.

If you have drones, wait until everything is targeting you which will be indicated by all flashing red. You may now release your drones and they will not be attacked.

Send drones to kill the two specialists that jam you. It will take time. If you are jammed while the drones are going to town, they will continue to attack even though you can't target.

Third, if you can't tank this then your SP or fit is terrible. I do this mission just fine with 1.8m sp and a passive tank drake. I can sit there all day.

The mission pays 1.5 million in reward money. Did you expect the game to just give it to you?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#14 - 2012-08-10 16:33:12 UTC

I'm not directly familiar with the mission, but many missions that are "hard to do" are really easy to do once you learn HOW to do them.... I would be surprised if this mission is not such a case...


1.) A lot of times you can pull selective aggro... so you only fight a small portion of the ships on grid.
2.) A lot of times there are trigger ships you should avoid shooting until you've cleared away enough you can sport another wave....
3.) Some missions are not about killing all ships, but ganking a target or powering through them to the next room....
4.) Some missions, when initially release, are out of balance and do need some tweaking.... look for forum posts on how to handle it...

Bubonic Gaterau
HEXEL Industries
#15 - 2012-10-14 13:39:06 UTC
I'm having trouble with the last wave of this mission too. Flying a Brutix, probably need to refit with kinetic specific shield hardener, but pretty happy with rest of setup which serves me fine for most Lvl3 and even some Lvl 4 missions. I get a couple of rounds off then the last wave of ships just perma jam me and I'm taking so much DPS at warp in that I don't even have time to launch drones, let them fight and have any hope of recovering them before time to warp out. Wouldn't be a problem if I could gradually take out one of the jamming ships but I don't even have time to take them down to armour and then they repair whilst I'm licking my wounds back at dock.

I have 2 more tactics to try;

1. Warp in point at the stars, hit the mwd, see if I can get out of range, string them out and try and hit them with long range turrets from 60Km. The speed should also lessen the missile damage whilst I head for the hills.

2. Get some friends.

The rewards and loyalty points on offer make it clear this is going to be difficult and figuring out how to counter a problem makes grindng iskies from missioning a little more challenging.

Older Wiser Fatter Slower

Angeal MacNova
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-10-14 15:53:54 UTC
Is your first move when you warp in to try and lock on?

Maybe try going with a small ship. It sounds like a suicide thing to do but if you can use T2 frigs (or maybe even a T1) and throw on a MWD or AB (the AB may be better to keep your sig radius down) then your first thing to do is turn it on and orbit the closest enemy.

Don't underestimate the ability of speed tanking while you armor/shield tank the little damage you do manage to get.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.

Furry Commander
Furry Armada
#17 - 2012-10-14 18:06:58 UTC
if you want to mission on easy mode use this

http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=HomePage

otherwise there will be random surprise missions and such that you might need to change ships or tactics for
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#18 - 2012-10-15 00:54:01 UTC
Uthgaard wrote:
The Level 3 Mission Cut-Throat Competition has a difficulty level that is extremely disproportionate to all other Level 3 Missions.

Quote:

[ 2012.07.22 00:27:39 ] Uthgaard > that was while i was soaking some of the damage, i got down to structure with 2 max named armor reps and a Prototype Energized Explosive Membrane
[ 2012.07.22 00:27:56 ] Uthgaard > and this is a myrmidon so it has a boost to armor rep amount
[ 2012.07.22 00:33:53 ] Uthgaard > this one was impossible in a myrmidon with exactly the right fit


Eve Survival wrote:
Damage dealt: kin/therm


This mission was hard because you're tanking it wrong. /thread
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#19 - 2012-10-15 01:15:24 UTC
at first it sounded like there was an amazing mission i had been missing, but no, it does look like ur tanking incorrectly.

guristas do vast amounts of kinetic damage and a lesser (but still significant) amount of thermal. It probably wont require it once u put on the right hardeners, but use dual T2 reppers as soon as u can then get aggro from the entire room before releasing drones.

for further advice, post the fits u were using.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Kortanil
Virtual Space Exploration
#20 - 2012-10-15 07:13:46 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Some missions are hard, some are really easy. That there is a very challenging L3 is not a suprise CCP wants you to call for friends as much as possible, this is an MMORG,

Some L4 missions are beatable in a bc, ive done some in an AF, usually i use a marauder. A few i need the full extent of what the marauder provides in rep amount, others i never break shields. (i use a kronos so its an armor tank)

Your friend walked into a mission that might have killed his CNR, but thats ok, why should every mission pass without difficulty? why should it be easy mode all the time.

I strongly support the random pve ship losses


All l4s I have done are beatable in a bc (myrm who was fitted and trained for guns not drones, i know my noob moment) - Angle extravaganza, The Blockade, etc. And when you have 8mil skill points scattered all over the place, that's a challenge that takes a long while to complete but it's possible.

The point he is trying to make is - there shouldn't be missions of a lower tier that are much harder than missions of a higher tier.
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