These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at

Ships & Modules

  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page

Observations and recommendations after 2 years in Drone Boats‏

The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-07-20 22:50:06 UTC
Purpose: To offer my observations and recommendations to drones and drone boats in particular the Ishkur, Myrm, Vexor, and Domi. The focus is PvP, all scales of it, but not so much the solo aspect.(These are what I've flown and can't comment on some of the others.)

Why: I started the game Gallente because I found the idea of drones cool so I've spent my first two years trying to learn to make myself competent in them in the realm of PvP. Particularly the Mrym, and I've flown almost nothing else but them in an attempt to so something else besides the standard Drake/Cane deal. I feel I've learned a lot, and have still a long way to go, but thought just maybe some Dev might read this and take a bit more of a look at a class of boats I feel have been left far behind and need some balancing. I know this is completely unrealistic hope but thought I'd give it a try. I'm no EVE expert, but I hope there is something in here that might help.

Positives: Not all is bad.
1. I find that shield tanked Mryms and Domi's can be particularly effective and produce very high DPS and with the new mods even more so.
2. Neut Mryms and Domis are absolutely great force multipliers in some scenarios
3. The Mrym is the best cheap command ship as it can relatively easily run two command links with only one CPU upgrade, still double target paint primary, put out ~300 dps, decent armor buffer, and have a couple of neuts for GTFO. I found this set up to be a great FC boat in the fight.
4. The Ishkur is a fine boat and only needs some minor tweaking.
5. I find buffer tank generally more viable. While the Mrym can do some cool small gang work(bait), overall as you don't always know how big a fight is going to get I find active armor rep lacking. But since the Mrym can fit sizable buffer tanks I've found this better unless I know for certain that the enemy force is very small and not neut capable.(rare in my experience)

1. Drones in general:
a: With the exception of lights, they are too slow for many cases, especially heavies. Sacrificing a mid for a speed boost is possible but painful and with heavies, still painfully slow.
b: I find that many times I would very much like to switch to a different damage type but some of the other races drones perform so poorly that its often usually warriors, maybe Hobs, Hammerheads, Ogres and perhaps Bezerkers. Sometimes Valks. Most of the other drones are hardly used in PvP.
c. You can't overheat them, which seems like one of the most powerful abilities in the game and drives a smart pilot to guns/missiles. And for drone boats where the majority of the DPS often comes from Drones, this is a huge drawback.
d. And of course they can be destroyed and while I would never suggest otherwise it is a significant drawback when you can just fly a cane or a drake and not really worry about it.
e. EWAR drones, other than ECM, are nearly completely useless. I was excited about the new light web drones but their effect is so minimal as to be a laugh. Neut drones can have some applications but in general why bother? Maybe as a surprise in an arranged fight but otherwise, meh.
f. Sentries: Other than gate camping (marginally) and engagements with carriers (due to smart bombs) I've found little useful application for them. As fights move the frustration with sentry's left behind and their overall poor tracking, drive me insane. Their limits on range without drone link augmenters is further more infuriating though some possess the ability to reach further.
g. The UI is a bit painful on them.

2. Ishkur: Great little boat but find its close in survivability still very difficult. I find that what is most lacking/difficult in the game is counter kiting and the importance of someone out there putting scram and web on a target. The Ishkur is not bad in this role but as with all small ships die very quickly in close due to neuts/scram/web. The Ishkur needs a bump in CPU to more easily fit a NOS while maintaining healthy tank without an implant. And NOS seems to need a bit of help in general.
3. Vexor: I have failed to find this boat very useful in PvP. The only good thing about it is that it tends to not get primaried. I will admit that I have not tried very hard with this boat as I grew too frustrated with it and found that it didn't fit any role of real use in any fleet work so I gave up on it. I'm sure there are others who have and would welcome their advice. Seems like the Arbi is much more utile.
4. The Mrym: There is no boat I have spent more time in.
a. Needs a utility high slot. It has one less slot than the other BC's and desperately needs it. It lacks CPU/grid. A pilot should be able to put in a Med Neut and 6 guns without issue or a drone link augmenter.
b. I hate the armor rep bonus because there are too many better fits that don't utilize this bonus and it just doesn't make sense to fly a boat over another choice when all too often you don't utilize it. Give me a bonus that applies to however I want to fit it (shield, armor buffer, or active rep.) The fact that the only viable way to active tank this boat is 3 reppers and two mid slots sacrificed to cap boosters is just too much sacrifice to make it's tank work.(and the drugs) I would gladly take a bonus to hybrid damage or web range or anything. Not to mention with the triple rep the explosive hole is still fairly open.
c. Not a huge fan of the bandwidth on this boat.
5. The Domi. Ugly but it certainly has some utility. I guess my biggest beef with this boat is the fact that heavy drones are so painfully slow that in many fights I'm unable to get them onto target before it pops and the next target is called. I've tried sentries but all to often find them lacking too much.

The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-07-20 22:50:23 UTC
1. I hear the UI fix on drones are in the works and I look forward to it.
2. Balance all the combat drones (not sentries) so that all their stats are the same except for damage type. I know that people will say that this will vanilla the game and WoW it but frankly no one complains that all heavy missiles perform the same except for damage type. A pilot must still make the decision what he will load into the drone bay prior to undocking so its still inferior to the choices that guns/missiles have.
3. Drone boat bonus should apply to more aspects of drones. Let Drone boats inherently provide speed, EWAR, Logi rep amount, and range boosts along with the damage and EHP already provided.(even salvage for when they come out) In particular the EWAR boosts need to be arranged that when drone boats launch a flight of EWAR drones it actually works and is viable. ECM drones could be excluded from this. Any complaint that this would OP drone boats is untrue as they are able to be destroyed easily and don't over heat.
4. Heavies need to be faster period, at least on Drone boats. Again there needs to be a reason to fly them.
5. Sentries need some work. I feel like they should be able to move quickly, deploy (stationary), and then shoot. At least return to the ship on their own. The range differences in them I guess are fine but the strange requirements on range engagement could use some examination I think. If sentries are to be the "rail guns" of drone boats they should be more viable.
6. Give all drones boats a bit of look at grid/cpu they seem lacking. Perhaps look at grid that allows for viable rail/arty use?
7. Give the Mrym a utility high slot.
8. Find a different second bonus to the Mrym other than active rep. Let the Brutix have that one. Give the Mrym something that works regardless of how you tank it.
9. Rethink the bandwidth on the Mrym. Of course I would prefer more.
10. Rethink more than 5 drones on the Domi/Ishtar? I know that is probably out of the box but not sure why that should be the case. (yes I know of the Guardian Vex)
11. The Vexor needs a better defined role. I think that if the drone bonuses pushed to EWAR drones/speed and others then it would perhaps find itself a role of fleet support/bombardment.
12. Find a way to work in overheating? Probably too much of a stretch but I find this to be one of the biggest drawbacks to flying drone boats.

Ok, I know this was too long but those are my observations and recommendations. Let the flaming begin!

#3 - 2012-07-20 23:14:08 UTC
Not sure anyone cares. No one really flies them that much in PvP and too hard to fix. CCP can spend its time better fixing other stuff.
W0lf Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-07-20 23:15:03 UTC
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-07-20 23:55:07 UTC
Hmmm, got the feeling you forgot to speak about ur other weapon system on ur "drone" boat on purpose. No drone link augmentor, drone speed boost and other modules for ur drone's? Coz them cost slots? Get real, the other weapon system boat's use slots too to give their gun's/launchers better operation.
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-07-21 00:35:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
That's a fair comment. However, no other system requires so many different slot layout requirements to just make them work. You can pretty much get all around superior performance from any missle/turret system with the low slot weapon upgrades. You get bonuses to range, tracking, and damage all in the low slots.(only the tracking computer is mid slot and hardly used.) This allows you to fully take advantage of shield tanking. However a drone boat has to dedicate slots in the low, high, and mids. And then on top of that you do need to try and get something out of the guns. It really is a bit of a stretch and could be thought out a bit better.

You don't see to many PvP losses with Drone Nav or tracking mods in the mids. Juice not worth the squeeze. A very few with the drone link augmentor, Drones are too slow to normally make sacrificing a high slot to watch an Ogre fly 70 kms to the target worth it.

But at the end of the day, there are a lot of other points beyond just the fact that their are mods that improve drones that I've brought up.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#7 - 2012-07-21 01:09:17 UTC
Good post and (with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions) not over the top requests. No idea if they would be truly viable. I do know CCP has some kind of plans for a pass at drones, and the drone AI in particular. As a drone lover I hope the drones, and drone boats get some adjustments as well. It will be interesting to see what they do.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Dread Varesk
Omnes Est Irritum
#8 - 2012-07-21 02:08:20 UTC
I agree with the the majority of points made by the OP. Drones in general and drone boats in particular are in serious need of a complete rethink by CCP.

I also agree it will never happen because CCP has over the years has avoided really addressing the fundamental design problems inherent in drones in PvP, which are:

1) Delayed Damage: Drones have the longest delayed damage in the entire game. If you look at the average speed of non-sentry drones (sentries discussed below) they are much worse than even missiles (torps being ignored because they are usable at only such short distances that their slow speed isn't a big issue). In pvp instant damage is what you really (for both burst damage and fast target switching) and the longer the delay from starting to apply damage to finishing applying damage the greater your disadvantage.

2) Can't Apply Damge: In pvp most ships use speed mods (either MWD or AB), and many are nano fitted. As a result often the problem arrises that drones simply cannot reach and keep up with the enemy ship. Heavy drones and non-minmatar light & medium drones suffer from this problem especially. Even if the drones can finally catch up to the target the added flight time required for a drone to reach is target because it is moving fast adds to problem #1 above.

3) Moderate Damage: 5 drones deployed by a dedicated drone ship (Domi, Myrm, etc...) even using the new low slot drone damage mods do overall damage that is roughly in the middle of the range for weapon systems used on sub-capital ships (blasters being the highest, smart bombs being the lowest).

4) Has return time: Drones are the only weapon system in the game that require time (often significant) to recall before the originating ship can warp away from its currently location or jump through a gate or portal. This is a serious disadvantage in pvp, where often the drone ship will need to move with its fleet members on a moments notice either by warping to a new location in system or moving to another system.

5) Can be Destroyed: Other than the rare occurence of SB bombs and regular missiles being killed by aoe damge from smartbombs, drones are the only stardard weapon system that can be destroyed independently of your ship by enemy action. And they are subject to destruction the entire time they are being used (undock to redock in drone bay). Yet drones have very small ehp and are easily killed by most ships smaller than a battleship, and battleship and capital ships can use smartbombs to destroy or drive away drones.

6) Sentry Dones Cant Move: Sentry drones are the only ones that can overcome the above problems of delayed damage and can't apply damage. However they are stationary AND require the originating ship to either stay with them (and suffer a serious loss in mobility, which is critical in pvp) or move away from them and risk losing them if suddenly required to warp or manuver far from the position where they were deployed. In addition, ships chosing to stay with their senty drones will often have the problem of not being close enough to an enemy ship to use its highslot weapons (if they are using short or medium range systems).

7) Split Weapon Systems: All sub-capital drone ships are split weapon system based, using drones plus highslot weapons. Split weapon system ships are by definition inferior to single weapon system designed ships because they have non-universal ship weapon bonus' plus require different ship mods to be fitted to support each system, thus using up additional fitting slots compared to single system ships.

8) Non-Damage Drones are Ineffectual: Other than ECM drones (which actually are designed for pvp, and are used by many players) the ewar/cc drones are inferior in application to the ship fitted mods they mimic, and rarely seen. Combined with the critical problem that a dedicated drone boat pilot must chose to not use his highes damage weapon system (combat drones) in order to field them. How many times has the average pvp'er been hit by target painter, sensor damping, or tracking disrupting drones in a real fight? When an entire class of a game system is generally not used by the players it is a sure sign it is in serious need of a rethink or removal from the game.

And the above are only some of the problems drones have in pvp. CCP has never liked drones and for most of the time has ignored them and left them to slowly fade away. This is probably due to the fact that they strongly add to server lag (ask the goons about crashing servers using massive drone fleets), are difficult to program into the game in a way where they work correctly but don't consume alot of server CPU cycles, and in general do not fit into the dev's well established favored play style of speed tanking gun using CC packing fleets (see Winmatar for further info Cool).

Recommendations (because I'm a hopeless dreamer):

1) Seriously consider removing drones from the game if they cannot be designed to be a weapon system equal in power and utility to guns and missiles. Why do you want to have an entire line up of combat ships that are fundamentally inferior in PvP in an MMO that is built around PvP? If you cant do it well, dont do it at all....

2) Redesign drones as a PvE centric weapon system and thus buff up their survivability and damage against NPC's in mission/WH's/exploration while reducing PvP effectiveness (simple start: give them a dmg and resistance bonus vs NPC's). Currently drone boats are used in PvE to slowly kill NPC's while players do laundry or watch a movie. Lets move drones out of this AFK playstyle if ccp isn't going to make them competitive in PvP.

3) Get rid of all of the non-combat ewar/cc drones except ECM. Almost no one uses them, they utterly cripple the drone boat by removing most/all of its dps, and they represent an inferior version of the real ship fit mods they are trying to mimic.

Dread Varesk
Omnes Est Irritum
#9 - 2012-07-21 02:20:15 UTC
4) Get rid of the split weapon system design inherrent in sub-capital ship drone boat design. Make the highslots non weapon usable (and probably reduce the number of highslots on many of the ships as a result), greatly increase the ship bonus' for drones in ALL respects (dmg, ehp, speed, tracking, etc). Make drone centric ships actually drone focused, not just ships that have have simply a few better drone stats.

5) Rething drones as a weapon system instead of a cool feature. Simply put, make drones as effective in pvp as guns. Period. If they aren't then stop and figure out why they arent and fix it. If ccp can't fix it do to game/design limitations then rethink the entire idea of drones.

At the end of the day carriers and super carriers have shown that you can design effective ships that ONLY have drones as a weapon system. It can be done with sub-caps, it just requires some out of the box thinking instead of trying to push forward a broken design that seemed like a good idea in 2003 but all these years later has shown itself to be the weakest of the 3 primary PvP weaon systems (guns, missiles, drones).

Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-07-21 02:53:01 UTC
Maybe have a CPU and powergrid bonus for drone control units on drone boats? Wouldn't affect speed issues but would certainly turn them into a single weapon platform.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#11 - 2012-07-21 03:09:51 UTC
Some Ideas I had to help drones them selves, and a little for the ships

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-07-21 05:26:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Windorian
I'm an avid drone user since 2006. I've seen alot of changes and some for good, some for bad. I can even remember before bandwidth when my myrmidon could field 5 heavies... those were the days.

While i agree with some things in this post, other topics are exaggerated, misleading, or missing some general info that changes the vantage point by a large margin.

Heavies: Yes, heavy drones are slow. Yes, they take FOREVER to reach a distant target, but you know what, that's ok. They aren't meant to be used on far ranged targets. You can easily squeeze 500 dps out of a flight of ogre 2's. Drop them on a target that is within 20km, and they will have no problem landing hits unless a) your skills suck, or b) they are fast as hell, in which case you would like not track them with guns either.

Sentries: DONT TOUCH THEM. I love my sentries, always have. For PVE they are amazing as they can match the tracking of a legion with substantially more range. Any turret aside from lasers needs time to reload or change ammo type for better range/dmg. Sentry drones can be recalled, new ones dropped and engaged, in about 2-3 seconds.

Yes, they do not move and have to be picked up manually, or you just dont move at all. Fair trade for being able to switch from high DPS 30km dmg to low DPS 100+km dmg in under 3 seconds. Show me a turret ship that can do that.

Modules: I agree on this point. It's odd that we have dmg in lows, speed in mids, and range in highs. Maybe consolidating the links and speed mods would be nice, so you can boost both with one module. I vote high slot though, as most drone boats have them to spare.

Split waepon system: I'm not bothered by it. It breeds variety. I LOVE my dominix because of it's versatility. When i engage someone, they don't know if i'm going to melt them with blasters, or smoke em with nuets. A plit system doesn't gimp you, it gives you more choices. You just need more skills to make those choices count.

Most Minmitard pilots have dealt with this for years, having both projectile weapons and missile/torps on many of their ships. They dont complain because, if you train for it, and set up right for it, it makes you highly Versatile.

Destructable weapon: Yeah, you can lose your drones easily in a skirmish if they are targetted, but that's ok. Drones are, effectively, the ONLY ECM resistant weapon in eve, asside from smartbombs and SB bombs. I love engaging falcons and whatnot because even if they jam me, my drones will tear them up. It's a fair trade.

The UI needs work, and the AI definetely needs work. I'd like to see the modules reworked and consolidated. Heavies could maybe use a slight speed boost, but i mean slight.

Otherwise, Drones are fine. Show me another weapon type that:

Uses 0 cap to fire
Uses 0 ammo to fire
Can "Forever Fire" meaning, once engaged they will keep shooting without having to press another button.
Can fire even when jammed/damp's provided they were out prior
Can change dmg type to ANY dmg type
Can change range in 3 seconds. (sentry)
Can engage ANY sized target on a proper ship (a dominix has 400 m3 of drone space, enough for a ridiculous variety in drone type and size, meaning alot of choices when engaging a target.)

PS: For god's sake, give the Ishtar more cpu, and fix the EOS. Fix the EOS, fix the EOS....

Really, i think the ishtar's CPU deficit and the EOS's no-sense bonuses are the biggest issues here. Other then that, the other ships are fine.

Leave the Myrm, it works great as it is and just because YOU dont use the rep bonus, doesn't mean other don''t
Don't touch my Dominix. It was my first love, and still makes T3's tremble when they see me in it.

Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#13 - 2012-07-21 06:37:20 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
The main advantage to drone boats is flexibility. Every cruiser-size drone boat with a 100 m3 drone bay or larger can do ALL of the following:

Carry at least 5 light drones.
Carry at least 5 medium drones.
Carry at least 5 light-ecm drones.

In other words you have your choice of anti-frigate weapon, anti-cruiser weapon, or pocket blackbird all without docking to refit. Now this might not be great for large fleets where your delayed damage will hurt you, but for solo or small gang, it's amazing.

Oh, and drone boats will never receive an ewar drone bonus because ecm drones are fricken OP. TBH the added drone bay for a flight of ecm drones in addition to the usual flight of damage drones is reason enough to use a drone boat in solo/small gang work.
Saile Litestrider
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-07-21 10:51:22 UTC
First off: what about the Arbitrator/Curse/Pilgrim? Where's the love? Sad

And don't forget the Gila when you ask for Ishtar buffs Blink

I see people wishing for a drone boat that's solely focused on drones, not just in this thread, but all the time. Perhaps what's called for is a highslot mod which takes up a turret or launcher slot, and provides a bonus to all aspects of drones. Speed, tracking, damage, even ewar effects. Not an insurmountable buff, but enough to make up for the loss of a (potentially) bonused weapon. This could allow for the focused drone boats without removing the ships' ability to use weapons. Another reason I'd like to see better modules that hurt a ship's ability to deal direct damage and make it into more of a drone boat is that, while it's sometimes easy to forget, we do have drone boats out there without drone bonuses. There are several battleships out there with a 125mb bandwidth and more than a 125m3 bay, letting them make full use of drones. If a series of buffs are given to bonused drone boats, and drones are made weaker or left alone for average ships, I'd be afraid of these ships getting caught in the rift between the two.

Oh, and concerning ECM drones, before you complain about them any more, is it the drone itself that's the problem, or ECM in general? I think ECM needs fixing, not ECM drones.

The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-07-21 13:01:00 UTC
I didn't discuss the other drone boats such as the Arbi and others because I've no personal experience yet flying them and thus only discussed ships I felt comfortable talking about.

My discussion was purely about PvP, I don't really PVE much and don't have anything useful to add on the subject.

I broke down the discussion into drones themselves and the issues I find with them. I then discussed the ships.

As far as the post stating that drones are fine, well obviously I just can't agree but that's certainly ok. My experience with most fights find heavies even when I deploy them close into the fight very lacking as the fight usually moves off in some direction faster than they can keep up. I firmly believe that drone boats should boost drone capabilities vastly more than non drone boats as otherwise there is no reason to fly them.

As far as the Myrm's armor rep bonus, saying that it should be left alone just because I don't use it is spurious. I have used it, just don't find it all that usefull. Just because you use it and like isn't a valid reason either. I see plenty of non-shield boosting bonused ships using the new shield aux booster very effectively in PvP. That new shield booster should be the model for PvP armor rep also. If someone wants to active armor rep a ship then there should be a mod that makes it viable regardless of some bonus for it. The same for buffer. Being pidgeon holed into both the drone boat role and the active armor rep mode is silly. The vast majority of pilots often don't fly the Mrym utilizing the bonus and a more flexible set of bonuses should be available. Like I said, let the Brutix have it.

I love ecm drones. I don't think they need any improvement, except maybe a tech II version with more tank and speed? Its the other EWAR drones that need to be brought into line. I'm anti nerfing ECM as it works well, so why get rid of it. The problem is that others ewar isn't so good. I fully appreciate and desire a rich game beyond just the endless waves of drakes and canes. Making other ships more useful and keeping ewar valid adds to the combined arms flavor of the game that I enjoy.

But I do appreciate the feedback, I think its a fairly valid discussion.
Denuo Secus
#16 - 2012-07-21 13:26:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
I like the idea of a combined high slot drone mod which boosts damage, range, EHP, speed, optimal and tracking of drones at the same time. Fitting it would lead to less fitted turrets (or neuts) and makes it balanced. Keep all existing drone mods for more flexibility in fittings. Because that's a key feature of drone ships imho: flexibility and unpredictability.
#17 - 2012-07-21 15:22:47 UTC
Yea, hurt my eyes a little, but I read it.

Quite in-depth on a few points.

Also there is no sniper drone battleship, which is becoming an ever increasing bother.

Fleet based Drone Battleships, to coordinate fleet drone activities at range, is my discourse. But Ranged battleships in general are needed.

Some of my drones have a proximity of 250 km, and I'm having trouble finding a Battleship with this Range even.

My skills are not perfect, and there are Sensor Boosters and Signal Amplifiers, but 800 km targeting range would be more suitable for my Battleships.

I read on G****e, that drones are controlled from thousands of km away, and cruise missiles go a thousand miles, and the Paris gun, from World War one, could fire further, than most Battleships do in eve.

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
#18 - 2012-07-21 16:49:47 UTC
You must be in school still right?
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-07-21 18:37:44 UTC
Narjack wrote:
Not sure anyone cares. No one really flies them that much in PvP and too hard to fix. CCP can spend its time better fixing other stuff.

Gee, I wonder why so few people fly them in PVP? It certainly can't have to do with the purpose of this thread, can it?

Not that I'm agreeing with the OPs sentiment, but if you're going to shoot down an idea about improving an aspect of the game, saying that "nobody flies them" is pretty much reinforcing his point.
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-07-21 18:38:25 UTC
whaynethepain wrote:
Yea, hurt my eyes a little, but I read it.

Quite in-depth on a few points.

Also there is no sniper drone battleship, which is becoming an ever increasing bother.

Fleet based Drone Battleships, to coordinate fleet drone activities at range, is my discourse. But Ranged battleships in general are needed.

Some of my drones have a proximity of 250 km, and I'm having trouble finding a Battleship with this Range even.

My skills are not perfect, and there are Sensor Boosters and Signal Amplifiers, but 800 km targeting range would be more suitable for my Battleships.

I read on G****e, that drones are controlled from thousands of km away, and cruise missiles go a thousand miles, and the Paris gun, from World War one, could fire further, than most Battleships do in eve.

Sorry, my tracking skills must be too low to follow you.
123Next pageLast page