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Estimated Price...
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Marcus Gideon
Triglavian Assembly
#1 - 2012-07-20 04:29:08 UTC
So now we have this fancy value displayed on just about everything.

Mouse over items in the hangar, and it tells you what they're averaging somewhere in space. Even adds them up to tell you what the whole stack is worth.

Mouse over a ship, and you get the same thing... kinda?

1) Why doesn't it take the prices of all the rigs and modules, and display a grand total if the ship in your hangar? It displays a total on the KM?

2) Even without counting the price of the modules and such, there is not a definite value for all ships. Faction, T2, T3... so how about using that value when calculating Insurance? Then insuring these ships (faction, T2, T3) would actually be worthwhile.


Ideas?
Marcus Ichiro
IchiCorp
#2 - 2012-07-20 04:50:12 UTC
1. Probably due to the different way in which the servers handle ships in hangar and ships in space, not really sure though. Would be nice to have it actually take fitted modules into account though.

2. Insurance is only supposed to cover raw material cost.
Marcus Gideon
Triglavian Assembly
#3 - 2012-07-20 04:53:46 UTC
Marcus Ichiro wrote:
2. Insurance is only supposed to cover raw material cost.

Yes, I get that's how it calculates now...

But since they have added the Price value, they could rework the system. And make Insurance more useful for something other than T1s.
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#4 - 2012-07-20 05:52:58 UTC
Making insurance better (adding yet another isk faucet) isnt a great idea, not to mention that insurance for t2/t3/faction is working as intended currently.
Belthazor4011
Battle BV Redux
#5 - 2012-07-20 08:35:22 UTC
I like that you'd see a total ship value thats a good idea.

T2 insurance is working as it should, part of flying a T2/T3 is that you're more screwed if you lose it.

No pain no gain man!
Effect One
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-07-20 13:30:48 UTC
Total value of ship: good idea.

T2/T3 Insurance: risk/reward

'This might be internet spaceships, but it's not rocket science to protect yourself and fly with a little common sense' - CCP Falcon
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#7 - 2012-07-20 15:12:02 UTC
Marcus Gideon wrote:
Marcus Ichiro wrote:
2. Insurance is only supposed to cover raw material cost.

Yes, I get that's how it calculates now...

But since they have added the Price value, they could rework the system. And make Insurance more useful for something other than T1s.


This is a bad, bad thing. In fact, insurance as a whole is a pretty bad thing. Insurance is one of the things in this game that literally creates liquidity out of nothing (which is what we like to call an "ISK faucet"). Extra liquidity drives inflation. Inflation drives prices up.

On the other hand, ship destruction does the opposite thing: it eliminates assets from the game. While this doesn't technically eliminate ISK, it does eliminate wealth. This causes the economy to churn a bit, which is healthy.

If we were to introduce T2/T3 ship insurance, the net amount of asset value lost to ship destruction would go down (dramatically if the insurance were worthwhile). This leads to more inflation, as T2/T3 ship destruction is one of the best ways to remove total value from the market these days. Prices go up. Everyone loses.
CorInaXeraL
The Dresdeneers
#8 - 2012-07-20 15:15:36 UTC
If Insurance were based on the base-cost/estimated cost of a fitting, then it would always be in flux.

For example:

I outfit a Machariel with a full Officer / Deadspace module loadout that, in truth, hits a 20b estimated value. I insure it. I then swap everything out for cheaper-than-dirt modules....how is the insurance plan I paid a premium on going to know I swapped those out? Will it suddenly refund part of what I paid to match the now-lower value? Or will it NOT change and offer payment for the more expensive mods if I go boom, even if they are not fitted, giving me a wonderful means of insurance fraud?
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-07-21 23:07:28 UTC
CorInaXeraL wrote:
If Insurance were based on the base-cost/estimated cost of a fitting, then it would always be in flux.

For example:

I outfit a Machariel with a full Officer / Deadspace module loadout that, in truth, hits a 20b estimated value. I insure it. I then swap everything out for cheaper-than-dirt modules....how is the insurance plan I paid a premium on going to know I swapped those out? Will it suddenly refund part of what I paid to match the now-lower value? Or will it NOT change and offer payment for the more expensive mods if I go boom, even if they are not fitted, giving me a wonderful means of insurance fraud?



Hmmmm, if the insured object is not the same object as the lost one, no insurance I guess?
Marcus Gideon
Triglavian Assembly
#10 - 2012-07-22 00:10:46 UTC
CorInaXeraL wrote:
If Insurance were based on the base-cost/estimated cost of a fitting, then it would always be in flux.

For example:

I outfit a Machariel with a full Officer / Deadspace module loadout that, in truth, hits a 20b estimated value. I insure it. I then swap everything out for cheaper-than-dirt modules....how is the insurance plan I paid a premium on going to know I swapped those out? Will it suddenly refund part of what I paid to match the now-lower value? Or will it NOT change and offer payment for the more expensive mods if I go boom, even if they are not fitted, giving me a wonderful means of insurance fraud?

Thought about that already =)

For one thing, Insurance could just cover the hull. There's already a price tag associated with that, when you mouse over the ship currently. So whether or not they allow Total Cost, wouldn't affect the new Insurance.

If they did account for Total Cost, then Insurance would be almost the same as it is now. The level you buy, determines what percentage is covered. Uncovered pays 40%, and Platinum is supposed to cover 100%. That amount would be calculated the same time the KM is. So you wouldn't be able to "cheat" like you'd suggested, by fitting expensively, insuring, and then downgrading. What you died with, is what's insured.


I can see where removing wealth from the game could be a good idea. Considering how things like Incursions are pouring it in like a fountain. And using mommy's credit card to buy PLEX, not only lines CCP's pockets, but makes it easy to get your hands on untold wealth.

But for those who don't like flying shiny Blingmobiles, just to watch them explode, and have $3.50 hit your account...
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#11 - 2012-07-22 07:43:12 UTC
Marcus Gideon wrote:

For one thing, Insurance could just cover the hull. There's already a price tag associated with that, when you mouse over the ship currently. So whether or not they allow Total Cost, wouldn't affect the new Insurance.

If they did account for Total Cost, then Insurance would be almost the same as it is now. The level you buy, determines what percentage is covered. Uncovered pays 40%, and Platinum is supposed to cover 100%. That amount would be calculated the same time the KM is. So you wouldn't be able to "cheat" like you'd suggested, by fitting expensively, insuring, and then downgrading. What you died with, is what's insured.


I can see where removing wealth from the game could be a good idea. Considering how things like Incursions are pouring it in like a fountain. And using mommy's credit card to buy PLEX, not only lines CCP's pockets, but makes it easy to get your hands on untold wealth.

But for those who don't like flying shiny Blingmobiles, just to watch them explode, and have $3.50 hit your account...


I'm standing by the idea that ISK sinks are good and shouldn't be eroded (and should probably be increased), but you're still missing something. If you insure a hull at base, unfit price paying a fixed percentage of its worth and then lose it after fitting it to the nines, under your plan of paying out what the loss is worth the player would be getting a vastly better deal than they are now when only the hull is covered. The only way to maintain proportionality would be to limit payout to a percentage of current value equal to insurance premium/insurance payout. And even then, that's a lot of extra cash for an officer fit Machariel or T3.
Marcus Gideon
Triglavian Assembly
#12 - 2012-07-22 23:35:37 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
I'm standing by the idea that ISK sinks are good and shouldn't be eroded (and should probably be increased), but you're still missing something. If you insure a hull at base, unfit price paying a fixed percentage of its worth and then lose it after fitting it to the nines, under your plan of paying out what the loss is worth the player would be getting a vastly better deal than they are now when only the hull is covered. The only way to maintain proportionality would be to limit payout to a percentage of current value equal to insurance premium/insurance payout. And even then, that's a lot of extra cash for an officer fit Machariel or T3.

Your math has me slightly confused, so let me just describe what I'd kinda envision and see if it helps any.

If Insurance covered hull price (as displayed currently on mouse over)...
Insurance premium = some fraction of current value at time of purchase, depending on level of coverage.
Insurance payout = coverage level % of value at time of destruction.

While this does allow for market manipulation... their system does regardless. This only uses that value for something more than fleshing out KMs.

Currently, insurance is "supposed" to be based on mineral values... or something. The problem being, anything above T1 isn't worth insuring. Even a faction frigate is vastly more expensive than the insurance payout. Whereas a basic T1 frig pays for itself with Platinum coverage.

Even without asking for Total coverage, of mods and rigs... using the Estimated Price they display now would at least make insurance worth having on other ships.
Ashriban Kador
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-07-23 12:51:48 UTC
The way I personally think Insurance -should- work is this:

Depending on level of cover you pay a % (upto maybe 50% for Platinum Cover) of the ship hull's material cost up front and then 10% every so often, ongoing... until either the ship is lost, or you default the Insurance Claim by repackaging the ship.

Uninsured ship loss payout: 1x Rookie Ship. (Civilian Fitted.)
Insured ship loss payout: ISK upto either: The amount currently payed into the Insurance Premium or the estimated total cost of the loss from the Kill Mail. (Whichever is lower)

Your goals may align with some ... and with others, collide with the force of suns.
Marcus Gideon
Triglavian Assembly
#14 - 2012-07-25 01:48:03 UTC
That's an... interesting idea.

But that's not even how real insurance works.

So long as you can prove you didn't buy insurance just to commit fraud, you'll get the full coverage even in the first month. So you're idea of receiving the lesser of the two amounts, seems off. Especially when someone could build a ship from scratch, and lose it 5min later.

Also, your initial deposit sounds quite steep. No one wants to pay 1 1/2 for their ship.

The whole thing should be based on Estimated Price, not mineral values. But I like the regular payment idea. Just like alliance and sov dues. If you neglect to pay one, the insurance is cancelled. And I'd make that something the player has to do themselves, not something that just comes out automatically. That way you don't go on vacation, and come back to an empty wallet.

=)