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New dev blog: Tech is fine l2p

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Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#441 - 2012-07-20 03:18:06 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Little Fistter wrote:

Right now you are giving the dominant alliances all the power.


Excuse me little...eh..man..


They didn't give us anything. We took it from the 65,000 player coalition that held it before us then we turned it into something more than what they were doing with it.

Sorry that it doesn't fit your jaded view of reality but thats actually what happened with it. Nobody was given anything...


one could say that the dominant alliances were not dominant alliances until they took those things

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Swidgen
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#442 - 2012-07-20 03:18:56 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I completely agree that alchemy is no holy grail. It is simply a start to the process.

Alchemy has the dual benefits of being quick enough to implement right away and having a moderating influence on the market that will make phase two much easier and safer for the eve economy.

Let moon goo and reaction products from the north be used for T2 shield mods, the south for armor, the east for speed and the west for energy. Leave alchemy in place so nobody is ever completely shut out, but re-balance the moon goo and blueprint bills of materials. I'd go one further and vary the amount and types of moon goo available in each region over time (18 months anyone?).

Good first devblog otherwise.
Andrea Griffin
#443 - 2012-07-20 03:40:57 UTC
23 pages already? This means one of two things:
1. This is a horrible change and everyone hates it;
2. This is a great change and a small vocal minority are crying salty tears.

I'm putting my money on #2. I like this; this is a good thing. Thank you. Alchemy is an interesting, market driven solution to supply issues in Eve.

CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#444 - 2012-07-20 03:52:45 UTC
Andrea Griffin wrote:


I'm putting my money on #2. I like this; this is a good thing. Thank you. Alchemy is an interesting, market driven solution to supply issues in Eve.


You left out option 3:

Everybody is saying "about frickin time"

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Aotearorian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#445 - 2012-07-20 04:49:03 UTC
I believe the main problem with propouser rates is amount that could be produced per pos,
For original alchemy amount was fine, more or less, because of small amount of moon and matherial use in T2 products.
lower level matherials tehre are mony more moons total with mach greater matherial use.

Based on calculations main component of cost become not reaction matherial cost, but Pos fuel cost + labor cost + capital/risk cost. It just too high to have mach effect on market. Way too high.

I would suggest to increate trougth put one way or an other. One of easy way would be to use L3 matherials as input, istead of raw moon goo.
pussnheels
Viziam
#446 - 2012-07-20 04:49:43 UTC
FINALLY

It is about time , i always thought that the commodity that is worth most actually is easiest takes the least time in effort and work to produce while the lowest commodities demand that people are spending long hours of , boring work

Yeah yeah i know it takes time and effort to keep sov but doesn't change the fact that moongoo was toooooo easy once you had acces to it

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#447 - 2012-07-20 05:04:19 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Little Fistter wrote:

Right now you are giving the dominant alliances all the power.


Excuse me little...eh..man..


They didn't give us anything. We took it from the 65,000 player coalition that held it before us then we turned it into something more than what they were doing with it.

Sorry that it doesn't fit your jaded view of reality but thats actually what happened with it. Nobody was given anything...


Again you did not take it from a 65,000 palyer coalition, You smashed a much smaller group than your self after calling in every ally you could when the restiance stiffened at all. Most of the 65,000 members did not at the time have any connection to the war space, gained no benefit from it, had no strong allianiance to the lederships of their coalition, hell they may have thought very little for the leader of their alliance.

The real problem in my opinion with tech was it got all you space fleet pros togethor on the same side, it allowed you to recruit the exact typle of people you need for this type of operation. The otehr side was not really able to compete with the benefits, so they got a more indepedant type, a more casual type. Tehy got the renters, peeps who really could not give a darn about it overall, they just want a small peice of the pie. When well equiped mercs run in a assault peasants and farmers the farmers 100 miles away do not grab their rifles and head over to help, they stay near their land. This is basically what happend from what I can see.

Your tactics maybe were bettter and you would have wone anyway, but the structural differences made it a foregone conclusion to start.
Samuella IV
#448 - 2012-07-20 05:24:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Samuella IV
Why cannot we use POS to harvest moon inside wormhole system ? These moons looks exactly the same.... Where is the sense, realism and logic to it ?
Otez Piton
PaZanchiki
#449 - 2012-07-20 05:24:57 UTC
Do not name this "Alchemy". It sounds like WoW
HAMBER BOGAN
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#450 - 2012-07-20 05:28:55 UTC
Otez Piton wrote:
Do not name this "Alchemy". It sounds like WoW


C

Name it "Internet Space Alchemy"

Best Bogan

EVE Down Under - Australian EVE Community www.evedownunder.com
Octoven
Stellar Production
#451 - 2012-07-20 05:53:48 UTC
Thank you Fozzie for saving EVE, time for monopolies to be broke and Robin Hood stealing from the wealthy and giving back to the poor. Thanks for finally putting the market back in the control of the players and not in the control of a few thousand who are good for nothing else but making a living of the tears of the backbone of eve.
HAMBER BOGAN
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#452 - 2012-07-20 05:58:31 UTC
TBH I don't think this "Tech Nerf" is enough.

Having all the isk for a 32k player coalition coming from one source is unhealthy.
Having the ability to hold 50% of null sec (in which the majority of Tech resides) as a coalition is also unhealthy.

There are 3 options.
1) CCP Does nothing after this patch, Tech is still worth a lot, CFC still get lots of money.
2) CCP Nerfs Tech and other means of massive amounts of "passive" income. So if you want your alliance to be rich, you need to work hard for it.
3) Take post nerf tech and spread it out throughout null sec, not bunched up in one place.

I personally would like option 3.
It would mean that there would be mid sized alliances able to hold tech moons for themselves, have smaller pet/friend alliances and not be kicked into the "bad" regions on null.
CFC would loose a lot of their income so they wouldn't be able to sustain their 100% SRP (%150 in some cases) and would weaken the glue between the CFC alliances.

It would also mean Smaller battles, so no 3000 man battles in one region for a month. It would be smaller battles but more regularly and all over the place, not just where the 2 biggest coalitions are.

It will give everyone more of a fair go. Yes, fair is far from what EVE is, but it will still be far from fair, just a little more fair.

What do you guys think?
If i get enough likes, Ill refine the idea of spreading tech around eve and put it up in the Assembly Hall + Start nagging the CSM about it until their ears bleed

Best Bogan

EVE Down Under - Australian EVE Community www.evedownunder.com
Kaycerra
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#453 - 2012-07-20 06:15:40 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Louis deGuerre wrote:
If this ensure that prices drop so I can afford to PVP again in something other than T1 frigs I love it.

But I just don't get it. It is such a strange solution.

Why not use your PI system (flaws and all) to produce vital moon minerals instead ?
That would ensure that minerals are distributed more evenly over the galaxy, are dynamic resources, and give DUST bunnies something meaningful to fight over.


This is the first step in our plan to revamp tech 2 production. Changes to how the minerals are obtained will be coming before we're done (although probably not from PI).


Not to be rude, but how could changes come at any time other than before you're done? If they came after you were done, then you wouldn't have been done yet, as you'd have made further changes later.

Also, excited about this, but know that the real solution (Alchemy as is, is not going to come anywhere close to alleviating the bloated price unless it goes a LOT higher), is going to take till at least the winter expansion, if by then, meaning that Otec will have padded their forces with what, 40 more titans, anyhow. =/

A lot of well to do, but like others have outlined, this is going to take forever, and in the meantime will probably do nothing about the real devastating side effect, one power block getting so insanely wealthy off the moongoo blunder, that 0.0 remains stale and uncompetitive.
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#454 - 2012-07-20 07:41:56 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
So we are going to kick Technetium in the balls.


And there was much rejoicing!



Mr Bigwinky wrote:
Talon Jasra wrote:
Because we need more poses. =\
In any case, nice first dev blog Fozzie ;)

Actually this is a real point. This depends on the use of POSes which are hugely broken. More broken than tech.

If you fix POSes I guarentee you a mantrain-free shower.



Posses are going to get a complete overhaul, CCP claims they are thinking about making them modular, upgradeable and scaleable to full size "cities". I'll be happy if they just make the Dead Horse Pos and then work further on them, forever.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#455 - 2012-07-20 07:44:40 UTC
Samuella IV wrote:
Why cannot we use POS to harvest moon inside wormhole system ? These moons looks exactly the same.... Where is the sense, realism and logic to it ?


+1 maybe then the hundreds of empty wormhole systems would get a population, and give mroe incentive for people to fight over wormholes that already have residents
Cynosurza
Northern Freight Unlimited
Young Miners Christian Association
#456 - 2012-07-20 08:01:46 UTC
"This is the first step in our plan to revamp tech 2 production. -CCP Fozzie


I remember the "plan to revamp tech 2 production" 1.0. It resulted in tech being very profitable and the market taking a **** for 6 months. Same thing will happen this time, except that alchemy, as many have discovered and voiced in this forum is simply not worth the fuel for the POS to make it.

If you really want to balance things, fix PI or make POSes use less fuel. Then alchemy will be profitable enough to be worth it. Unlike now.
Dilly Dallyer2
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#457 - 2012-07-20 08:13:55 UTC
One totaly unrelated game mechanic that could also break the Tech monopoly would be to make standings based on player actions, not just a click of a button. Too much of the game is blue to each other. Indiscretions done to an Alliance should not be so easily forgotten.
To stop this from being exploited by Awoxres this would need personal, corp and Alliance standings exactly like is done with NPC agents/Corps/Factions. If your personal standings towards an alliance you are in drop to a certain point, you get a warning, if they drop lower you loose all roles, if they drop bellow a set threshold you get a 24 hour warning that you are being automaticaly kicked from your corporation.

END this mass of iveryone being blue. blob warefare needs to be attacked from every direction.
Haffsol
#458 - 2012-07-20 08:20:47 UTC
yes, I've read all this mastodontic uber trolling thread.

That said, and adding I never moon mined in my e-life, I wanna throw my 2 cent in the fuss.

Spreading tech moons or giving to _all the regions_ equal or equivalent benefits is just lame. The concentration of power and highly specialized business should be very welcome because it SHOULD mean more war!! If someone took those benefits with glorious fights or with unglorious exploit, it just means in the first case they have been good at EVE and in the second one that they've been even better. Did the Trojans mourned for ages when Ulisses conquered their town using a wooden horse-shaped gadged?

What is probably wrong with the goons is that they abused of this power, demonstrating they basically own the market and can turn it upside down at their own pleasure and necessity. This is what has happened recently, in the last 6 months at least, when one big problem started having a great relevance in New Eden's everyday life: the never ending inflation at unsustainable levels!

All of you stated and said repeatedly that the issue was very well known, and it had been spotted years ago, but for I don't know which reason, prices have been "under control" so far, increasing but being compensated by the general market trends so basically it was not a problem at all, but for all the envious ones. Now it's no more like that and I'm not able to say exactly why, but I guess the goons would eheh

My very personal idea is that CCP was a bit shocked to see what the power of a single and very little group could do to the market in the recent LP/Factional Warfare "scam". So in other words, I think the goons lost part of their lucent marble and went a bit too far overheating their printing isk machines and this is indeed a problem today.

Could have it been different? Who knows. Will it be anyway different with these announced changes? That's something I really don't know but it will be easy to check: if prices will go down or not.

Too early Fozzie to ask for likes spamming don't you think? One does not simply nomnom thumbs in Mordor
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#459 - 2012-07-20 08:24:27 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Elecktra Blue wrote:
"The end goal is for the materials for tech two production to come from player activities that require group gameplay and risk taking, and that provide appropriate rewards."

Yes not like a group of players took the time to grind sov, place towers, keep up the logistics of said towers, and defended them.


I think this is a good point and you should applaud yourself. It doesn't change the fact that nudges can be required for the benefit of the EVE universe. Like it or not but we did the same with PI taxes. I am sure that was a great benefit to some and a huge problem for others.

You'll bounce back I'm sure for the same reasons you climbed to power in the first place; being excellent at EVE!

Kudos
Omen


notsureifserious.jpg

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#460 - 2012-07-20 08:28:48 UTC
Dilly Dallyer2 wrote:
One totaly unrelated game mechanic that could also break the Tech monopoly would be to make standings based on player actions, not just a click of a button. Too much of the game is blue to each other. Indiscretions done to an Alliance should not be so easily forgotten.
To stop this from being exploited by Awoxres this would need personal, corp and Alliance standings exactly like is done with NPC agents/Corps/Factions. If your personal standings towards an alliance you are in drop to a certain point, you get a warning, if they drop lower you loose all roles, if they drop bellow a set threshold you get a 24 hour warning that you are being automaticaly kicked from your corporation.

END this mass of iveryone being blue. blob warefare needs to be attacked from every direction.


So people are not allowed to be friends unless the game says so? That's a curious interpretation of "open-ended sandbox universe driven by player actions".