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45 million ISK cover charge to PvP...
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Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#81 - 2012-07-18 22:09:29 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Rath Kelbore wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Rath Kelbore wrote:
Another thought, due to my theoretically higher SP, if I did fly a rifter I would gain more benefit from it than someone with fewer sp. Again justifying a higher clone cost.

If I didn't know any better I'd say it sounds like you don't know how skills work in this game.


I'm glad you know better then.

Explain to me how I don't understand how skills work in this game.



What if I have all that SP in something completely unrelated to Rifters?


Why would you be flying a Rifter?

Are you gaining absolutely no benefit any other time from having SP in whatever it is you have SP in???


I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#82 - 2012-07-18 22:30:25 UTC
Rath Kelbore wrote:

Why would you be flying a Rifter?
Are you gaining absolutely no benefit any other time from having SP in whatever it is you have SP in???


Rifters can make use of:

Electronics
- Electronics
- Propulsion Jamming
- Signature Analysis

Engineering
- Energy Management
- Energy Systems Operation
- Engineering
- Shield Management
- Shield Operation
- Tactical Shield Manipulation

Gunnery
- Advanced Weapon Upgrades
- Gunnery
- Motion Prediction
- Rapid Firing
- Shrapshooter
- Small Autocannon Specialisation
- Small Projectile Turret
- Surgical Strike
- Trajectory Analysis
- Weapon Upgrades

Mechanic
- Hull Upgrades
- Jury Rigging
- Mechanic
- Projectile Weapon Rigging
- Repair Systems

Missile Launcher Operation
- Missile Bombardment
- Missile Launcher Operation
- Missile Projection
- Rapid Launch
- Rocket Specialisation
- Target Navigation Prediction
- Warhead Upgrades

Navigation
- Acceleration Control
- Afterburner
- Evasive Manouvering
- Fuel Conservation
- Navigation
- Warp Drive Operation

Science
- Thermodynamics

Spaceship Command
- Minmatar Frigate
- Spaceship Command

Many of these skills are prerequisite for bigger ships & weapon systems as well. Most of this is Basic pvp skills all pvper will use. In fact after these basics, there is little left needed to train for but bigger guns and ship lines for pvp. Yet just about any other skill other than these wont be counted to how badass you are.
PI, social NPC skills, trade, drones, mining, science, salvage, hacking, any other ship, larger weapons, corporation, logistics or other mods you would never use on it.
SP don't apply if the modules don't use them. There is a lot of possible SP that will never be used In any actual ship.
Lexmana
#83 - 2012-07-18 22:36:53 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:

1) Does this mechanic encourage players to go pew pew more or become more reluctant to engage in combat?

Mechanics like that makes loss mean something and that is exactly what makes PvP interesting and exciting. It can even give you the shakes.
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#84 - 2012-07-18 22:37:30 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Rath Kelbore wrote:

Why would you be flying a Rifter?
Are you gaining absolutely no benefit any other time from having SP in whatever it is you have SP in???


Rifters can make use of:

Electronics
- Electronics
- Propulsion Jamming
- Signature Analysis

Engineering
- Energy Management
- Energy Systems Operation
- Engineering
- Shield Management
- Shield Operation
- Tactical Shield Manipulation

Gunnery
- Advanced Weapon Upgrades
- Gunnery
- Motion Prediction
- Rapid Firing
- Shrapshooter
- Small Autocannon Specialisation
- Small Projectile Turret
- Surgical Strike
- Trajectory Analysis
- Weapon Upgrades

Mechanic
- Hull Upgrades
- Jury Rigging
- Mechanic
- Projectile Weapon Rigging
- Repair Systems

Missile Launcher Operation
- Missile Bombardment
- Missile Launcher Operation
- Missile Projection
- Rapid Launch
- Rocket Specialisation
- Target Navigation Prediction
- Warhead Upgrades

Navigation
- Acceleration Control
- Afterburner
- Evasive Manouvering
- Fuel Conservation
- Navigation
- Warp Drive Operation

Science
- Thermodynamics

Spaceship Command
- Minmatar Frigate
- Spaceship Command

Many of these skills are prerequisite for bigger ships & weapon systems as well. Most of this is Basic pvp skills all pvper will use. In fact after these basics, there is little left needed to train for but bigger guns and ship lines for pvp. Yet just about any other skill other than these wont be counted to how badass you are.
PI, social NPC skills, trade, drones, mining, science, salvage, hacking, any other ship, larger weapons, corporation, logistics or other mods you would never use on it.
SP don't apply if the modules don't use them. There is a lot of possible SP that will never be used In any actual ship.


I agree with the last sentence. That didn't answer my question though.

Just for fun, having all of those skills at five, how much would a clone cost???

I'm not sure what you're trying to say but the skills in PI, social NPC skills, Trade, other skills related to other ships, ect. Why should those not be figured into the price of the clone if you lose it while flying a Rifter??

Do you not benefit from them at some point in time???

In other words, why should the price of clones be reduced/removed for high SP characters?? Are they not benefiting or at least able to benefit from having those skill points??? Does that not justify them having to pay more for clones???

I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#85 - 2012-07-18 22:49:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Rath Kelbore wrote:

Do you not benefit from them at some point in time???

In other words, why should the price of clones be reduced/removed for high SP characters?? Are they not benefiting or at least able to benefit from having those skill points??? Does that not justify them having to pay more for clones???


At some point in time. Yes. Unless you happen to never do PI again, or never Mine again. or never scan down and do hack sites again, never trade again. Yet you now have the skills anyway so it leaves the possibility no matter what.
Yet In what benefit does it serve the player base as a whole to justify increased clone costs because they only existed longer, not necessarily physically played as many hours. Despite all that SP, more specialized younger player could surpass them in any field if the older player never choose to completely max out a previous field.
But the older player has more "points".
More "points" for what exactly? Just existing longer shouldn't incur penalties. The losses should be in what benefit you are reaping from the skills. A battleship requires more (effective) skills than a frigate. A battleship costs a lot more than a frigate when lost. That is the loss properly attributed to having more skill points.
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-07-18 23:04:58 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Rath Kelbore wrote:

Do you not benefit from them at some point in time???

In other words, why should the price of clones be reduced/removed for high SP characters?? Are they not benefiting or at least able to benefit from having those skill points??? Does that not justify them having to pay more for clones???


At some point in time. Yes. Unless you happen to never do PI again, or never Mine again. or never scan down and do hack sites again, never trade again. Yet you now have the skills anyway so it leaves the possibility no matter what.
Yet In what benefit does it serve the player base as a whole to justify increased clone costs because they only existed longer, not necessarily physically played as many hours. Despite all that SP, more specialized younger player could surpass them in any field if the older player never choose to completely max out a previous field.
But the older player has more "points".
More "points" for what exactly? Just existing longer shouldn't incur penalties. The losses should be in what benefit you are reaping from the skills. A battleship requires more skills than a frigate. A battleship costs a lot more than a frigate when lost. That is the loss properly attributed to having more skill points.


Isn't the potential to use the SP you have to benefit from worth something?? Just because you choose not to use them doesn't make them worthless does it??

Should we get rid of clone costs?? Reduce them? Make it a flat rate regardless of SP. How much should a clone cost??

I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#87 - 2012-07-18 23:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Rath Kelbore wrote:
Isn't the potential to use the SP you have to benefit from worth something?? Just because you choose not to use them doesn't make them worthless does it??

Should we get rid of clone costs?? Reduce them? Make it a flat rate regardless of SP. How much should a clone cost??


Older players already spent the time and hard cash supporting the game to reach the event horizon. May sound a bit elitist, yet requiring more effort to even enjoy the more mundane activities or lower ship lines seems wrong play wise.
The whole clone process needs a total revamp to a better risk/reward situation. I already posted an idea on the last page of making clone grades dependent on what lvl of implants you want to use. It is a awesome idea? Meh, but there are numerous ways the current system can be improved.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2012-07-18 23:21:30 UTC
Removing clone upgrade costs entirely isn't the way to go. Scaling them down significantly is, however.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Adalun Dey
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2012-07-18 23:27:26 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
I still want to know what kind of isk sink we're talking about here. According to Dotlan, there were 156,814 podkills in June. For grade omicron clones with 42.2 million SPs kept, the cost of all those pods would be 737 billion isk. Seems like a lot, but when you consider that it amounts to just over a billion isk per hour, that's the equivalent of maybe 20 L4 mission runners in highsec. A single agent probably pays more in a month than is consumed by pod replacement. it is a tiny drop in the bucket that is Eve's economy.
The Clones are too expensive! The Clones are too cheap! Either they are too expensive because they are a great ISK sink or they are too cheap because they aren't enough of an ISK sink. It can't be both. If vets are complaining about running L4 missions for an hour to pay for their PVP habbits, I wonder how many hours noobs have to grind L3 missions for to replace the T1 battleships they lost in PVP.

Marconus Orion wrote:
/facepalm
In the time it took you to fondle your face, you could have earned the 42.2 mill to pay for your next clone. First it were the miners, now it's the peeveepee'rs whining on the forums. I'd facepalm myself, but I've got ISK to make ... for my next clone ...

[i]" Take my love, take my land, take me where I can not stand, I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me. "[/i]
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#90 - 2012-07-18 23:28:06 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Rath Kelbore wrote:
Isn't the potential to use the SP you have to benefit from worth something?? Just because you choose not to use them doesn't make them worthless does it??

Should we get rid of clone costs?? Reduce them? Make it a flat rate regardless of SP. How much should a clone cost??


Older players already spent the time and hard cash supporting the game to reach the event horizon. May sound a bit elitist, yet requiring more effort to even enjoy the more mundane activities or lower ship lines seems wrong play wise.
The whole clone process needs a total revamp to a better risk/reward situation. I already posted an idea on the last page of making clone grades dependent on what lvl of implants you want to use. It is a awesome idea? Meh, but there are numerous ways the current system can be improved.


Well I guess we simply disagree.

I kind of like your idea, cheap clones = unable to handle implants, expensive clone = able to handle better implants.

Not a horrible idea really. I still contend that the price should be related to how many sp you have but whatever.

Just to throw an idea out there:

Clone costs based on the highest tier(rank whatever) of skill trained.

For example, if all you have is rank 1 skills then your clone costs x amount, if you have a rank 2 skill trained then u pay the rank two price ect.

Just a thought.

I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#91 - 2012-07-18 23:28:15 UTC
Rath Kelbore wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
So it's not that you can't afford it. You just don't want to Cry





Yeah sorry bro, no sympathy here. Especially not over such a petty sum. If top end clones cost half a bill or something then yeah, but the reality is that 45 mill should be a trivial sum. If it isn't, you can stop training before your clone cost gets high (I've diverted my skill training to alts and am lurking just under the 92.5M mark)

If you're still training, you probably have at least a rack of +4s, and maybe some hardwires - these will cost at least as much as you clone and most likely a fair bit more.


Pretty much, yeah, on the not wanting to part.

I still go out in cheapy ships for fun (and very soon will be doing so much more often), and I don't really let ISK or skill point loss determine whether I not I do something, however it is (for lack of a better word) annoying. For those players that have little in the way of an income stream (unwise though that may be) I have little doubt that it plays a large part in their decisions.

I'd love to see small gang combat in the about to be upgraded T1 frigates and cruisers become much, much more common even with the bitter vet crowd. It's just fun.

I feel that doing a few small things to encourage that outweight the other metric of the part clone costs plays in the risk vs. reward equation. That and I tend to invariably support any move that places players more in control, such as the ability to create our own clones would do.

I absolutely see the point you are driving at though. It would have to be carefully considered so as not to take a wrong step towards removing consequences and risk.



I understand that you may be an old fart(in game)and your clones cost a "lot" and all you want to do is go have fun in cheap ships.

I also understand that maybe you don't have an interest in any isk making parts of the game (I'm with you there) because they bore you to no end.

I don't understand why anyone would think that since they don't like to generate isk and their clones are expensive due to mass amounts of SP, the price of those clones should be reduced.

If we do that, why not just remove clones altogether? It would solve the problem wouldn't it?


I don't think you understood my point, and I probably didn't explain it very well.

I'm not so much in the "Make clones cheaper" camp, and I'm pretty financially solvent in game.

I'm more in the "Make clones a player driven industry" camp. Among other advantages over the current system, yes, it might mean that if a player devotes the time to learning how to manufacture his/her own high end clones the price might drop a bit. I don't view that as a bad thing as long as it's handled properly. If the players spend time learning the skills and plan for it, I don't see much of an issue if they end up spending less on their clones, and I see several advantages that I listed above.

I am NOT in favor of arbitrarily making them cheaper "just because", or taking any steps that might put the "risk vs reward" ratio out of whack.

I just believe that more game mechanics in the hands of the players, and more incentives for older players to fly a wider variety of ships (basic ones that are rarely flown now) are both worthy goals IF it can be achieved without screwing things up.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-07-18 23:51:50 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Rath Kelbore wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
So it's not that you can't afford it. You just don't want to Cry





Yeah sorry bro, no sympathy here. Especially not over such a petty sum. If top end clones cost half a bill or something then yeah, but the reality is that 45 mill should be a trivial sum. If it isn't, you can stop training before your clone cost gets high (I've diverted my skill training to alts and am lurking just under the 92.5M mark)

If you're still training, you probably have at least a rack of +4s, and maybe some hardwires - these will cost at least as much as you clone and most likely a fair bit more.


Pretty much, yeah, on the not wanting to part.

I still go out in cheapy ships for fun (and very soon will be doing so much more often), and I don't really let ISK or skill point loss determine whether I not I do something, however it is (for lack of a better word) annoying. For those players that have little in the way of an income stream (unwise though that may be) I have little doubt that it plays a large part in their decisions.

I'd love to see small gang combat in the about to be upgraded T1 frigates and cruisers become much, much more common even with the bitter vet crowd. It's just fun.

I feel that doing a few small things to encourage that outweight the other metric of the part clone costs plays in the risk vs. reward equation. That and I tend to invariably support any move that places players more in control, such as the ability to create our own clones would do.

I absolutely see the point you are driving at though. It would have to be carefully considered so as not to take a wrong step towards removing consequences and risk.



I understand that you may be an old fart(in game)and your clones cost a "lot" and all you want to do is go have fun in cheap ships.

I also understand that maybe you don't have an interest in any isk making parts of the game (I'm with you there) because they bore you to no end.

I don't understand why anyone would think that since they don't like to generate isk and their clones are expensive due to mass amounts of SP, the price of those clones should be reduced.

If we do that, why not just remove clones altogether? It would solve the problem wouldn't it?


I don't think you understood my point, and I probably didn't explain it very well.

I'm not so much in the "Make clones cheaper" camp, and I'm pretty financially solvent in game.

I'm more in the "Make clones a player driven industry" camp. Among other advantages over the current system, yes, it might mean that if a player devotes the time to learning how to manufacture his/her own high end clones the price might drop a bit. I don't view that as a bad thing as long as it's handled properly. If the players spend time learning the skills and plan for it, I don't see much of an issue if they end up spending less on their clones, and I see several advantages that I listed above.

I am NOT in favor of arbitrarily making them cheaper "just because", or taking any steps that might put the "risk vs reward" ratio out of whack.

I just believe that more game mechanics in the hands of the players, and more incentives for older players to fly a wider variety of ships (basic ones that are rarely flown now) are both worthy goals IF it can be achieved without screwing things up.


I did horribly miss your point and I apologize :)

Making clones a player driven industry sounds good to me. The more stuff we can make player driven the better IMO.

I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2012-07-19 00:00:11 UTC
I've never been a fan of the way that cloning costs work. I'm fine with a high cost to upgrade a clone to the next level, but you should maintain that level of medical clone each time you die, IMHO, perhaps with a significantly smaller replacement fee (5-10% of the initial cost)?
Jalabaster
Aether Ventures
#94 - 2012-07-19 03:39:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jalabaster
Quote:
If you can afford to pvp you can afford a clone.


So wait, you're down to lose hundreds of millions worth of ship, but 45mil of clone is where you draw the line?
"**** this, i'm posting in general forums!"

"when a ship is blown up, the pilot usually winds up replacing it. This drives the economy, steadies inflation, and gives industrialists a reason to manufacture. In contrast, creating isk while never losing any items has the unfortunate reverse effect on the market, plus it isn't really any fun." Jala
Pipa Porto
#95 - 2012-07-19 03:52:32 UTC
Jalabaster wrote:
Quote:
If you can afford to pvp you can afford a clone.


So wait, you're down to lose hundreds of millions worth of ship, but 45mil of clone is where you draw the line?
"**** this, i'm posting in general forums!"


The annoying thing is when your clone is significantly more expensive than the frigate you want to go on a suicidal roam with.

It puts a floor on the amount you risk when going to dangerous places.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2012-07-19 04:19:18 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
Granted there are not that many, but more and more players are breaking into that realm of what it cost to keep your clone up to date with the skill points you have.

Yes I know there will be players who chime in with sage words like:
"With that many skill points you should be rolling in katrillions of iskies!!!!"
or
"If you are losing your pod you are doing it wrong!!!!... wait you're in null/wormholes?...what do you mean bubbles???"
or my personal favorite
"It is mechanics like those that make sure this game remains HARD CORE and L33TZOR compared to other games, why you dying anyways? BRING FRIENDS and blob more!"

My questions are:
1) Does this mechanic encourage players to go pew pew more or become more reluctant to engage in combat?
2) If clone upgrade costs were removed completely, what are your solid predictions on how and what things would change.
3) This question only CCP can really answer or unless the exact statistics have been released before. Is there more ISK removed from clone upgrade costs or more ISK added from ship insurance?

EDIT: Added question #3, but perhaps someone could help me word that better if they know what I am talking about. Straight



yea, eve is too fucking hard, make it easier by all means. :sigh:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Fiona Tsero
Doomheim
#97 - 2012-07-19 04:39:15 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:
yea, eve is too fucking hard, make it easier by all means. :sigh:


I don't think it's a difficult thing, more like a stupid thing.
Velarra
#98 - 2012-07-19 04:53:40 UTC
A serious review of clones and absolutely everything related to clones would be welcomed.
Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-07-19 04:55:04 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
So it's not that you can't afford it. You just don't want to Cry





Yeah sorry bro, no sympathy here. Especially not over such a petty sum. If top end clones cost half a bill or something then yeah, but the reality is that 45 mill should be a trivial sum. If it isn't, you can stop training before your clone cost gets high (I've diverted my skill training to alts and am lurking just under the 92.5M mark)

If you're still training, you probably have at least a rack of +4s, and maybe some hardwires - these will cost at least as much as you clone and most likely a fair bit more.


My clones are only 13 mil and it's not a trivial sum to my wallet. It may not prevent me from PVPing that combined with 40+ mil in implants does affect how I play and the risks I take and I'm not a particularly risk averse player.

I had honestly expected a more rational position from you. As I stated up thread the idea that these mechanics serve any purpose other than to discourage risk taking is idiotic. All they do is discourage people from playing and encourage blobbing and ganking. If you've ever been pissed about getting blobbed you have no business supporting either of these stupid mechanics.

People are too damned risk averse in this game, Hell it's the source of most of the bitter vet tears, "OMG, why won't those carebears won't fly under my guns and give me easy kills."

Gee maybe just maybe stupid outdated poorly thought out mechanics that discourage playing the game might have something to do with it.

Personally I'd far rather that vet with the 45 million isk clone spend that isk on 10 fitted rifters that could actually generate some game play than in the service of some silly e-bushido "people must risk **** for my game to have meaning" bullshit.

If an isk sink is so damned important just bump the market transaction fees a fraction of % it would have a far greater affect on the isk supply than what people spend keeping their docked clones up to date.
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2012-07-19 04:56:04 UTC
I love how people go full blown ultra extreme on how by removing clone cost it suddenly flips a holy light switch from 'Super Duper Hard Core' to 'Super Duper Easy Mode'. Ugh